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Counterpoint: AlphaGo discovered new moves in the Game of Go, to the extent that books have been written about those new moves and how they change modern openin

Counterpoint: AlphaGo discovered new moves in the Game of Go, to the extent that books have been written about those new moves and how they change modern opening theory[1]. In Go, there are hundreds of years of tradition studying the games of past master players, and analyzing how their innovations changed our cultural understanding of the game. Humanity can't have it both ways. If those contributions were valuable when made by a human, they should be equally valuable when made by an AI. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Using-AlphaGos-Enlarged-Corner-Enclosures/dp/1090423365/ https://www.amazon.com/Using-AlphaGos-Enlarged-Corner-Enclos...

visarga 4y ago
Another counterpoint - AlphaFold. It really discovers structure we could not previously discover.
- dekhn 4y ago
  Not really- all of alphafold depends on having enough sequence alignment information to existing proteins with known structures. It really does not perform all that well on out-of-dataset prediction.
  - fsloth 4y ago
    Still having good combinatorical guestimates extrapolated from existing knowledge is not a useless trick in itself.
    - visarga 4y ago
      If you can simulate you can check and throw out the garbage, or get more training data for the next iteration.
JoshCole 4y ago
Another counterpoint is that the same technology applied to chess rediscovered human opening theory - then extended it in some openings. In chess, you don't have to write a research paper to make a notable contribution. If people find your move beautiful, they put a little exclamation point next to it in the notation. AlphaZero gets plenty of those - enough for a book about its play [1]. This took multiple human generations for us to accomplish, with literal geniuses applied to the task and spending their whole lives on it. Rediscovery and expansion happened in a wall clock time that is better measured in minutes than generations. [1]: https://www.amazon.com/Game-Changer-AlphaZeros-Groundbreaking-Strategies/dp/9056918184 https://www.amazon.com/Game-Changer-AlphaZeros-Groundbreakin...
lettergram 4y ago
That’s not a “discovery” in the sense that it measured and predicted something new. An AI cannot predict something new, it can predict something it’s seen. In the case you mentioned, it played against itself a billion times until it “discovered” a good strategy. There’s conflating of terms here.
- schaefer 4y ago
  The point you're raising here is a semantic argument, not substantive one. It asks the question what do we both mean by the word "discover"? And is only one of us using that word correctly? Not only that, but you've already pivoted your semantic position to: when I say "discover" I mean "predict"... I have no interest in jumping down a semantic rabbit hole with you lettergram (are you just trolling?). As a Go enthusiast with an entire bookshelf dedicated to books on Go like: Invincible, The Games of Shusaku, and 400 Years of Go in Japan, I'm comfortable stating that in my opinion the new moves popularized by AlphaGo mark a cultural shift in the game that is as significant as any of the big names in the history of the game. Take for example the wonderful Wikipedia article on the innovations of Go Seigen[1]. Seigen's innovative opening plays in the 1930s is one of the reasons he is considered by many to be "the greatest Go player of the 20th century". [2] Again, my point is this: Go Seigen's beautiful discoveries on the Go board made him a Hero to generations of Go players. We can debate whether AlphaGo's discoveries are equal or lesser than Seigens, but they are within the same order of magnitude: both players triggered a once in a generation sea change in how Go Culture thinks about the game. To brush aside AlphaGo's discoveries, would be to brush aside Seigen's as well. Which is demonstrably wrong. So, fine. Is "discovery" the wrong word for what Alpha Go has achieved? Whatever. I don't care. Lettergram, If you really have a point, and you really care about convincing me of your point, then reframe your argument in such a way that clearly differentiates Go Seigen's accomplishments in a meaningful way from those of AlphaGo. In what way does Go Seigen's legacy stand apart from AlphaGo's? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinfuseki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinfuseki [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_Seigen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_Seigen

visarga 4y ago

Another counterpoint - AlphaFold. It really discovers structure we could not previously discover.

dekhn 4y ago
Not really- all of alphafold depends on having enough sequence alignment information to existing proteins with known structures. It really does not perform all that well on out-of-dataset prediction.
- fsloth 4y ago
  Still having good combinatorical guestimates extrapolated from existing knowledge is not a useless trick in itself.
  - visarga 4y ago
    If you can simulate you can check and throw out the garbage, or get more training data for the next iteration.

JoshCole 4y ago

Another counterpoint is that the same technology applied to chess rediscovered human opening theory - then extended it in some openings. In chess, you don't have to write a research paper to make a notable contribution. If people find your move beautiful, they put a little exclamation point next to it in the notation. AlphaZero gets plenty of those - enough for a book about its play [1]. This took multiple human generations for us to accomplish, with literal geniuses applied to the task and spending their whole lives on it. Rediscovery and expansion happened in a wall clock time that is better measured in minutes than generations. [1]: https://www.amazon.com/Game-Changer-AlphaZeros-Groundbreaking-Strategies/dp/9056918184 https://www.amazon.com/Game-Changer-AlphaZeros-Groundbreakin...

lettergram 4y ago

That’s not a “discovery” in the sense that it measured and predicted something new. An AI cannot predict something new, it can predict something it’s seen. In the case you mentioned, it played against itself a billion times until it “discovered” a good strategy. There’s conflating of terms here.

schaefer 4y ago
The point you're raising here is a semantic argument, not substantive one. It asks the question what do we both mean by the word "discover"? And is only one of us using that word correctly? Not only that, but you've already pivoted your semantic position to: when I say "discover" I mean "predict"... I have no interest in jumping down a semantic rabbit hole with you lettergram (are you just trolling?). As a Go enthusiast with an entire bookshelf dedicated to books on Go like: Invincible, The Games of Shusaku, and 400 Years of Go in Japan, I'm comfortable stating that in my opinion the new moves popularized by AlphaGo mark a cultural shift in the game that is as significant as any of the big names in the history of the game. Take for example the wonderful Wikipedia article on the innovations of Go Seigen[1]. Seigen's innovative opening plays in the 1930s is one of the reasons he is considered by many to be "the greatest Go player of the 20th century". [2] Again, my point is this: Go Seigen's beautiful discoveries on the Go board made him a Hero to generations of Go players. We can debate whether AlphaGo's discoveries are equal or lesser than Seigens, but they are within the same order of magnitude: both players triggered a once in a generation sea change in how Go Culture thinks about the game. To brush aside AlphaGo's discoveries, would be to brush aside Seigen's as well. Which is demonstrably wrong. So, fine. Is "discovery" the wrong word for what Alpha Go has achieved? Whatever. I don't care. Lettergram, If you really have a point, and you really care about convincing me of your point, then reframe your argument in such a way that clearly differentiates Go Seigen's accomplishments in a meaningful way from those of AlphaGo. In what way does Go Seigen's legacy stand apart from AlphaGo's? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinfuseki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinfuseki [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_Seigen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_Seigen