3 ms·

The "one way" philosophy worked really well for Python for 15-20 years. It was really only during the break-away adoption by the data science community (and ot

by sgk284 4y ago

The "one way" philosophy worked really well for Python for 15-20 years. It was really only during the break-away adoption by the data science community (and other mass audiences) that started adding pressure to bloat the language. The adoption of 3rd party libraries like numpy, which are so critical to modern Python, also destroyed the community's "batteries included" philosophy. Older Python felt a lot like using FreeBSD, where the whole system is cohesive and designed to work together, whereas modern Python feels a lot more like Linux – a bunch of disparate systems that try to work well together (in the best of times). Both approaches have their strengths, and the language has certainly improved in some areas, but I prefer the older style. In any case, it is fascinating to see how mainstream Python is now. Maybe this change in mindset was required for it to take over the world. We've come so far since Paul Graham cited the language as esoteric and its usage a high signal of competence (http://www.paulgraham.com/pypar.html http://www.paulgraham.com/pypar.html).

mhneu 4y ago
It's really been a mistake for the Python core team to not figure out a better way of integration with numpy. I'm pretty sure back in the 2000s the numpy team was ready to do work on this. Syntax integration would be great. It's such a hassle to learn two syntaxes and two data/object models to work with numpy -- as inevitably your code converts from Python objects <-> numpy objects at some point (singletons!), and it makes learners' lives much more difficult than needed.
- deepsquirrelnet 4y ago
  As I recall there were not one, but three libraries providing similar functionality — numpy, numeric and numarray. In the mid-2000s I was using all of them for various reasons. It took quite a while before numpy emerged as the defacto standard. I wonder if there was no adoption into the language at that time as a result of fractured communities and lack of consensus.
wheelerof4te 4y ago
"The adoption of 3rd party libraries like numpy, which are so critical to modern Python, also destroyed the community's "batteries included" philosophy." You are right and your FreeBSD vs Linux analogy really hits the target. Thanks to the advancement of hardare and the development of libraries like Numpy, Python has moved from it's scripting niche and became a global, general purpose language. Was that an error? If we look at the "batteries included" philosophy and the poor state of Python's package management after all these years...I'd say yes.
- DemocracyFTW2 4y ago
  When I whined about Python's import system in another comment I completely forgot to add some snark concerning the horrible, horrible state of everything to do with Python package management system. Here again, many failed efforts over the years (setuptools, pip, ...), a terrifyingly convoluted packaging system, and bad, highly complex plans (virtualenv) to heal problems that are self-inflicted
  - jimmaswell 4y ago
    I seldom use Python anymore but the few times I've used pip it's been fine. What went wrong with pip?
    - squar1sm 4y ago
      Asking people to run `pip install` on anything but `poetry` is an anti-pattern to me. Ruby has had bundler for over a decade and this is the pattern that is working for them as well as npm/yarn. Npm comes with node, Cargo comes with Rust so the debate is somewhat reduced. Since quality of life tools and other soft things are hard to prove, I'll tell my anecdata story point. I sought out any package manager experience in python. I landed on Pipenv which uses pip. It failed to solve the tree. This led me to find poetry and the reason for existing which is exactly my experience. That was 2-3 years ago. https://github.com/python-poetry/poetry#why https://github.com/python-poetry/poetry#why Combine this with asdf and it aligns with most other languages. asdf + yarn/npm = javascript asdf + poetry = python asdf + bundler = ruby asdf + cargo = rust asdf + mix = elixir asdf + shards = crystal asdf + go.mod (others) = go asdf + composer = php In legacy (don't break anything) mode, there's still no reason to not switch. I export `requirements.txt` with poetry just for pip legacy reasons and it works great. If I just update some scripts, I could avoid it. It's running all the time in CI, it's exercised quite a bit. What's wrong with just using pip and requirements.txt? There's no dev section. In addition, bumping deps is not the same. I have a blog post explaining semver updates to a python dev: https://squarism.com/2021/09/10/sciencing-out-updates/ https://squarism.com/2021/09/10/sciencing-out-updates/ my strong assertion: Python and Go missed it from the start. That's why it is so confusing. There's no other choice in Rust but Cargo. Rust devs are never confused on how to add a package, semver it. The answer is always Cargo. It's in the tutorial. It's in the book. It's in the culture. I think I've heard that pip might support the pyproject spec, poetry already does. If you want scripts like npm, you can have that too with "taskipy". You don't have to.

by sgk284 4y ago

mhneu 4y ago

It's really been a mistake for the Python core team to not figure out a better way of integration with numpy. I'm pretty sure back in the 2000s the numpy team was ready to do work on this. Syntax integration would be great. It's such a hassle to learn two syntaxes and two data/object models to work with numpy -- as inevitably your code converts from Python objects <-> numpy objects at some point (singletons!), and it makes learners' lives much more difficult than needed.

deepsquirrelnet 4y ago
As I recall there were not one, but three libraries providing similar functionality — numpy, numeric and numarray. In the mid-2000s I was using all of them for various reasons. It took quite a while before numpy emerged as the defacto standard. I wonder if there was no adoption into the language at that time as a result of fractured communities and lack of consensus.

wheelerof4te 4y ago

"The adoption of 3rd party libraries like numpy, which are so critical to modern Python, also destroyed the community's "batteries included" philosophy." You are right and your FreeBSD vs Linux analogy really hits the target. Thanks to the advancement of hardare and the development of libraries like Numpy, Python has moved from it's scripting niche and became a global, general purpose language. Was that an error? If we look at the "batteries included" philosophy and the poor state of Python's package management after all these years...I'd say yes.

DemocracyFTW2 4y ago
When I whined about Python's import system in another comment I completely forgot to add some snark concerning the horrible, horrible state of everything to do with Python package management system. Here again, many failed efforts over the years (setuptools, pip, ...), a terrifyingly convoluted packaging system, and bad, highly complex plans (virtualenv) to heal problems that are self-inflicted
- jimmaswell 4y ago
  I seldom use Python anymore but the few times I've used pip it's been fine. What went wrong with pip?
  - squar1sm 4y ago
    Asking people to run `pip install` on anything but `poetry` is an anti-pattern to me. Ruby has had bundler for over a decade and this is the pattern that is working for them as well as npm/yarn. Npm comes with node, Cargo comes with Rust so the debate is somewhat reduced. Since quality of life tools and other soft things are hard to prove, I'll tell my anecdata story point. I sought out any package manager experience in python. I landed on Pipenv which uses pip. It failed to solve the tree. This led me to find poetry and the reason for existing which is exactly my experience. That was 2-3 years ago. https://github.com/python-poetry/poetry#why https://github.com/python-poetry/poetry#why Combine this with asdf and it aligns with most other languages. asdf + yarn/npm = javascript asdf + poetry = python asdf + bundler = ruby asdf + cargo = rust asdf + mix = elixir asdf + shards = crystal asdf + go.mod (others) = go asdf + composer = php In legacy (don't break anything) mode, there's still no reason to not switch. I export `requirements.txt` with poetry just for pip legacy reasons and it works great. If I just update some scripts, I could avoid it. It's running all the time in CI, it's exercised quite a bit. What's wrong with just using pip and requirements.txt? There's no dev section. In addition, bumping deps is not the same. I have a blog post explaining semver updates to a python dev: https://squarism.com/2021/09/10/sciencing-out-updates/ https://squarism.com/2021/09/10/sciencing-out-updates/ my strong assertion: Python and Go missed it from the start. That's why it is so confusing. There's no other choice in Rust but Cargo. Rust devs are never confused on how to add a package, semver it. The answer is always Cargo. It's in the tutorial. It's in the book. It's in the culture. I think I've heard that pip might support the pyproject spec, poetry already does. If you want scripts like npm, you can have that too with "taskipy". You don't have to.