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How does one know that you don't create the dream at the point that you're explaining it? Like a false memory. Thinking up an idea and remembering an idea prob

How does one know that you don't create the dream at the point that you're explaining it? Like a false memory. Thinking up an idea and remembering an idea probably have similar patterns on EEG. I guess that experiment has been done? At times I've had pretty interesting dreams, but since I was a teen (decades ago) wondered if perhaps the dream was made on the spot as I "remembered" it. Provided the creative part kept ahead of the "recall" part then it seems doable. I wonder if there could be negatives to greater dream recall, processing memories of dreams sounds like extra work for your finite brain functions to handle. I once woke from a dream with a sense of religious injunction, and still have the name I was "given" as a curiosity in my life, "St Athanasius of Lubensk". I had never heard of the forename nor the place at the time of the dream. Research showed them to separately be something. If you have details, let me know.

magusdei 4y ago
>If you have details, let me know. Athanasius is greek for "immortal" and is a common name of saints, church fathers etc. Lubensk (Лубенськ) is an obscure city near Luhansk. Saint Athanasius of Lubensk refers to Athanasius III of Constantinople, saint of the Orthodox church known as an "enlightener", who died near Lubensk. According to the Wikipedia article[1] he sometimes appears to people in dream visions, so your experience is not entirely without precedent. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasius_III_of_Constantinople https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasius_III_of_Constantinop...
- pbhjpbhj 4y ago
  I've not looked this up in a while. I couldn't link any Athanasius to Lubensk at the time (but don't Athanasius of Constantinople, and found Lubensk. Gotta say the "appears to people in a dream" is kinda fucked up [messing with my head]. It must be 10y or more since I last researched it, looks like there are more leads out there. Thanks.
superb-owl 4y ago
This was a common objection to the notion of Lucid Dreaming for a long time. Scientists accused lucid dreamers of making up a post-hoc story about being in control. Finally Stephen LaBerge did a study where he was able to move his eyeballs in a distinct pattern during the REM phase [1], proving that he had conscious control while asleep. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-05547-0 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-05547-0
ruined 4y ago
> How does one know that you don't create the dream at the point that you're explaining it? Like a false memory. i would venture an explanation, but i'm not sure if your comment was real or just something i thought of as i started typing into this box, and even if i did explain, i wouldn't trust you to understand my reply as something that you didn't imagine.
- can16358p 4y ago
  Rick and Morty S02E04, totally recommended if you haven't watched and want to get entertained in this topic in a fun way.
tgv 4y ago
> How does one know that you don't create the dream at the point that you're explaining it? Like a false memory. That's a good question, especially since the "people who can frequently recall their dreams tend to be more creative". It might be a self-report effect. Another thing that the article seems to skip is the fact that it's doesn't try to measure only recall, but also the actual presence of dreams (you can't recall if you don't dream). There's no way to tell the difference. Plus the usual limitations of such studies: the manipulation (short sleep for the measurements and sleep deprivation in the non-measurement period), and bad statistical practices (NHST, calling higher p values proof of absence).
feanaro 4y ago
> At times I've had pretty interesting dreams, but since I was a teen (decades ago) wondered if perhaps the dream was made on the spot as I "remembered" it. This is easily disproved by observing that people sometimes mutter in their sleep as they dream. Cats/dogs vocalize and twitch while dreaming too sometimes.
- hnhg 4y ago
  Not necessarily, unless you have some decent data on this to share? Not everyone might mutter in their sleep. The overlap between the people who mutter and those who self-report might be minimal. Muttering behaviour might have an unexpected relationship with dream recall, etc.
  - adamgordonbell 4y ago
    I believe I recall that lucid dreaming tests were done where you would signal you were lucid via some eye movement. Pairing the eye movement with the recall after the fact would seem to show its not all made up at the time of recovery, though perhaps it could be expanded upon at recall time.
  - feanaro 4y ago
    I guess I understood the claim to be universal, that is that all dreams are constructed purely at the point of waking. If it is not, then what I said is indeed not good evidence for the negation of the claim. However, the possibility that some people dream for real while others simply construct faux memories on the point of waking up seems very stretched to me personally. If you're asking about specific individual experiences, I've personally experienced people talking in their sleep about something, then waking up and explaining what it was about, with perfect consistency. I've also experienced this myself (having other people witness me doing so).

magusdei 4y ago

>If you have details, let me know. Athanasius is greek for "immortal" and is a common name of saints, church fathers etc. Lubensk (Лубенськ) is an obscure city near Luhansk. Saint Athanasius of Lubensk refers to Athanasius III of Constantinople, saint of the Orthodox church known as an "enlightener", who died near Lubensk. According to the Wikipedia article[1] he sometimes appears to people in dream visions, so your experience is not entirely without precedent. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasius_III_of_Constantinople https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasius_III_of_Constantinop...

pbhjpbhj 4y ago
I've not looked this up in a while. I couldn't link any Athanasius to Lubensk at the time (but don't Athanasius of Constantinople, and found Lubensk. Gotta say the "appears to people in a dream" is kinda fucked up [messing with my head]. It must be 10y or more since I last researched it, looks like there are more leads out there. Thanks.

superb-owl 4y ago

This was a common objection to the notion of Lucid Dreaming for a long time. Scientists accused lucid dreamers of making up a post-hoc story about being in control. Finally Stephen LaBerge did a study where he was able to move his eyeballs in a distinct pattern during the REM phase [1], proving that he had conscious control while asleep. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-05547-0 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-05547-0

ruined 4y ago

> How does one know that you don't create the dream at the point that you're explaining it? Like a false memory. i would venture an explanation, but i'm not sure if your comment was real or just something i thought of as i started typing into this box, and even if i did explain, i wouldn't trust you to understand my reply as something that you didn't imagine.

can16358p 4y ago
Rick and Morty S02E04, totally recommended if you haven't watched and want to get entertained in this topic in a fun way.

tgv 4y ago

> How does one know that you don't create the dream at the point that you're explaining it? Like a false memory. That's a good question, especially since the "people who can frequently recall their dreams tend to be more creative". It might be a self-report effect. Another thing that the article seems to skip is the fact that it's doesn't try to measure only recall, but also the actual presence of dreams (you can't recall if you don't dream). There's no way to tell the difference. Plus the usual limitations of such studies: the manipulation (short sleep for the measurements and sleep deprivation in the non-measurement period), and bad statistical practices (NHST, calling higher p values proof of absence).

feanaro 4y ago

> At times I've had pretty interesting dreams, but since I was a teen (decades ago) wondered if perhaps the dream was made on the spot as I "remembered" it. This is easily disproved by observing that people sometimes mutter in their sleep as they dream. Cats/dogs vocalize and twitch while dreaming too sometimes.

hnhg 4y ago
Not necessarily, unless you have some decent data on this to share? Not everyone might mutter in their sleep. The overlap between the people who mutter and those who self-report might be minimal. Muttering behaviour might have an unexpected relationship with dream recall, etc.
- adamgordonbell 4y ago
  I believe I recall that lucid dreaming tests were done where you would signal you were lucid via some eye movement. Pairing the eye movement with the recall after the fact would seem to show its not all made up at the time of recovery, though perhaps it could be expanded upon at recall time.
- feanaro 4y ago
  I guess I understood the claim to be universal, that is that all dreams are constructed purely at the point of waking. If it is not, then what I said is indeed not good evidence for the negation of the claim. However, the possibility that some people dream for real while others simply construct faux memories on the point of waking up seems very stretched to me personally. If you're asking about specific individual experiences, I've personally experienced people talking in their sleep about something, then waking up and explaining what it was about, with perfect consistency. I've also experienced this myself (having other people witness me doing so).