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I hope more country follow suit of Belgium and The Netherlands and classify loot boxes with a random drop element as gambling, and as such make it heavily regul

by ajnin 4y ago

I hope more country follow suit of Belgium and The Netherlands and classify loot boxes with a random drop element as gambling, and as such make it heavily regulated and banned to kids. This kind of practices are evidently predatorial and manipulative and should be greatly discouraged.

qball 4y ago
>classify loot boxes with a random drop element as gambling Most people who talk about this tend to have no idea what laws already cover gambling. I think that, in this case, loot boxes should be treated like slot machines as far as minimum payout goes; in Nevada (for example) this is minimum 75% by law- meaning that the house must ultimately return 75% of the value it takes in as winnings to its gamblers. As these systems are effectively slot machines (put coin in, pull handle, get box), not much more needs to be done other than applying the law as written. It might be tricky to establish a dollar value for the digital assets paid out, and would add overhead to assets distributed in this manner (how one would put a price on "asset that changes the way the game works" is, of course, an open question), but provided it's done properly should clamp down significantly on the anti-consumer aspects of these practices- which is, I suspect, the real reason everyone complains about this in the first place.
- callamdelaney 4y ago
  There is 0 value to things that can be generated with in games like the 'loot' from lootboxes. Value is based on a limit in supply, not only demand. The massive possible amount of supply puts the value at $0. It's worse than gambling.
  - qball 4y ago
    >There is 0 value to things that can be generated with in games like the 'loot' from lootboxes. But that's false, on its face in fact- there was development and artist time involved in every step of the process, and that time has a value (and an auditable one, at that). So now that we know what the value is, taking into account that the house can only pay out in those assets, we can in effect determine a maximum profit per asset (as far as the house-player transaction is concerned)- casinos close their doors when the house is no longer able to pay out, and it's no different here.
    - iepathos 4y ago
      This is not accurate. Time and resources put into making a product does not guarantee or give it any inherent value. Value of products can absolutely be 0 even if millions are dropped into its creation if there is no demand or simply infinite supply. I don't think there is infinite supply here, just pointing out this argument about value based on development cost is not accurate.
      - therealdrag0 4y ago
        There’s also network effects, companies slight provide some things as a loss leader to other things, so the cost of A doesn’t mean A is all the company needs to charge to remain in business if their model uses A’s profits to support B etc.
- IncRnd 4y ago
  In most cases there is no market for the digital assets from a loot box, and many game operators aggressively crack-down on anyone attempting to setup such a market. The digital assets from these loot boxes have no value. These are not lotteries or slot machines as these are currently defined in Nevada, which you quote.
- fatbird 4y ago
  Kids aren't allowed to play real world slot machines either, are they?
  - qball 4y ago
    The last time I went to Dave & Busters, they didn't seem to have an entrance policy. People don't seem to have a problem with this even though a minority of their games are ultimately slot machines (the simplest of which is the "time the light" game, but the coin stackers count as this as well given that they're literally right out of real casinos). Interestingly, the fact that D&B lets you combine winnings with cash to simply buy prizes outright arguably puts them under the 'gambling' line from a legal standpoint (it works if the tokens have "no value", which is how arcades generally do it for this specific reason- combining points with your leftover cash makes this fig leaf vanish), but the fact that they let you do that in the first place is also a pro-consumer move.
    - Beldin 4y ago
      > if the tokens have "no value", But if you can exchange tokens for prizes, clearly the tokens do have value. 1 token = piece of bubble gum, 10 tokens = keychain, 5000 tokens = fluffy unicorn. Etc. Basically, I don't see why the fig leaf would work in the first place...
      - phamilton 4y ago
        Somewhat related, I once had a job offer at an early startup and wanted to adjust the equity/salary ratio a bit. I asked "How much more equity could I get per $1k drop in salary?" The founder liked that framing but when he went to go get legal to approve they shut it down saying that putting a direct dollar amount on equity would throw a huge wrench into 409a valuations. So while things have value, anchoring that value to a dollar amount is a different story.
    - dehrmann 4y ago
      > The last time I went to Dave & Busters, they didn't seem to have an entrance policy. Nit: > Must be 18 or over to enter the premises. Persons under the age of 18 may only enter the premises with a guardian who is at least 25 years of age. Each guardian may bring no more than 6 underage persons into the premises. https://www.daveandbusters.com/locations/daly-city https://www.daveandbusters.com/locations/daly-city
- Aeolun 4y ago
  $ of loot box / drop chance = value of asset
  - greycol 4y ago
    Let me tell you about the 1/1 "Goodhart Peacock" card the ultra ultra rare diamond legendary. While it may seem that you get two of them in every pack you're mistaken you actually got 2 different cards! They're actually super unique because each of the 20 tail feathers can be one of 20 different colours...
deleted 4y ago
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by ajnin 4y ago

qball 4y ago

>classify loot boxes with a random drop element as gambling Most people who talk about this tend to have no idea what laws already cover gambling. I think that, in this case, loot boxes should be treated like slot machines as far as minimum payout goes; in Nevada (for example) this is minimum 75% by law- meaning that the house must ultimately return 75% of the value it takes in as winnings to its gamblers. As these systems are effectively slot machines (put coin in, pull handle, get box), not much more needs to be done other than applying the law as written. It might be tricky to establish a dollar value for the digital assets paid out, and would add overhead to assets distributed in this manner (how one would put a price on "asset that changes the way the game works" is, of course, an open question), but provided it's done properly should clamp down significantly on the anti-consumer aspects of these practices- which is, I suspect, the real reason everyone complains about this in the first place.

callamdelaney 4y ago
There is 0 value to things that can be generated with in games like the 'loot' from lootboxes. Value is based on a limit in supply, not only demand. The massive possible amount of supply puts the value at $0. It's worse than gambling.
- qball 4y ago
  >There is 0 value to things that can be generated with in games like the 'loot' from lootboxes. But that's false, on its face in fact- there was development and artist time involved in every step of the process, and that time has a value (and an auditable one, at that). So now that we know what the value is, taking into account that the house can only pay out in those assets, we can in effect determine a maximum profit per asset (as far as the house-player transaction is concerned)- casinos close their doors when the house is no longer able to pay out, and it's no different here.
  - iepathos 4y ago
    This is not accurate. Time and resources put into making a product does not guarantee or give it any inherent value. Value of products can absolutely be 0 even if millions are dropped into its creation if there is no demand or simply infinite supply. I don't think there is infinite supply here, just pointing out this argument about value based on development cost is not accurate.
    - therealdrag0 4y ago
      There’s also network effects, companies slight provide some things as a loss leader to other things, so the cost of A doesn’t mean A is all the company needs to charge to remain in business if their model uses A’s profits to support B etc.
IncRnd 4y ago
In most cases there is no market for the digital assets from a loot box, and many game operators aggressively crack-down on anyone attempting to setup such a market. The digital assets from these loot boxes have no value. These are not lotteries or slot machines as these are currently defined in Nevada, which you quote.
fatbird 4y ago
Kids aren't allowed to play real world slot machines either, are they?
- qball 4y ago
  The last time I went to Dave & Busters, they didn't seem to have an entrance policy. People don't seem to have a problem with this even though a minority of their games are ultimately slot machines (the simplest of which is the "time the light" game, but the coin stackers count as this as well given that they're literally right out of real casinos). Interestingly, the fact that D&B lets you combine winnings with cash to simply buy prizes outright arguably puts them under the 'gambling' line from a legal standpoint (it works if the tokens have "no value", which is how arcades generally do it for this specific reason- combining points with your leftover cash makes this fig leaf vanish), but the fact that they let you do that in the first place is also a pro-consumer move.
  - Beldin 4y ago
    > if the tokens have "no value", But if you can exchange tokens for prizes, clearly the tokens do have value. 1 token = piece of bubble gum, 10 tokens = keychain, 5000 tokens = fluffy unicorn. Etc. Basically, I don't see why the fig leaf would work in the first place...
    - phamilton 4y ago
      Somewhat related, I once had a job offer at an early startup and wanted to adjust the equity/salary ratio a bit. I asked "How much more equity could I get per $1k drop in salary?" The founder liked that framing but when he went to go get legal to approve they shut it down saying that putting a direct dollar amount on equity would throw a huge wrench into 409a valuations. So while things have value, anchoring that value to a dollar amount is a different story.
  - dehrmann 4y ago
    > The last time I went to Dave & Busters, they didn't seem to have an entrance policy. Nit: > Must be 18 or over to enter the premises. Persons under the age of 18 may only enter the premises with a guardian who is at least 25 years of age. Each guardian may bring no more than 6 underage persons into the premises. https://www.daveandbusters.com/locations/daly-city https://www.daveandbusters.com/locations/daly-city
Aeolun 4y ago
$ of loot box / drop chance = value of asset
- greycol 4y ago
  Let me tell you about the 1/1 "Goodhart Peacock" card the ultra ultra rare diamond legendary. While it may seem that you get two of them in every pack you're mistaken you actually got 2 different cards! They're actually super unique because each of the 20 tail feathers can be one of 20 different colours...

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]