4 ms·

all persons in the test did not have any sign of anxiety or depression, it's like getting a medicine for headache without an headache hoping that you will feel

all persons in the test did not have any sign of anxiety or depression, it's like getting a medicine for headache without an headache hoping that you will feel even better

mensetmanusman 4y ago
People without depression can feel moods
- UnpossibleJim 4y ago
  Moods are different than a person with clinical depression. That's comparable, in a hyperbolic way, to saying, everyone knows what it's like to break their leg because we've all stubbed our toe at some point. A person with a chemical imbalance cannot "just snap out of it", nor is it just a feeling of depression. There is a range of symptoms symptomology to go along with the diagnosis of true depression [1]. If left untreated, depending on severity, this can lead to suicide, delusional thinking, schizoid breaks, homelessness and very often self treatment with illicit drug use. [1] https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/depression/symptoms-causes/syc-20356007 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/depression/sy...
  - mensetmanusman 4y ago
    All I’m pointing out is that this study isn’t necessarily focused on people with clinical depression. That isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but it’s probably not worth criticizing a study that is looking in a different subset domain of interest.
    - pseudalopex 4y ago
      It's worth criticizing an article that omitted a major limitation until the end.
      - httpsterio 4y ago
        I don't really understand how you see it as a limitation, the study wasn't aimed to find a cure for mental illnesses and neither did it try to sell it off as any such thing either. For some reason, you made the assumption but that's not a fail of the study.
        pseudalopex 4y ago
        You seem to think limitation means flaw or falsehood. It means any limit. I criticized the article. Not the study. The study authors believed the limitation was so important they put it in the title.
  - FollowingTheDao 4y ago
    I have to agree with this. It is the biggest flaw in the study. I have bipolar disorder and when I am depressed, I quickly know when something works. To negate the placebo effect at time I will trick myself taking prozac. When I am depressed I have found a single dose of prozac in one day will change my mood. Do I think someone who is not depressed would see mania taking one does of Prozac? > If left untreated, depending on severity, this can lead to suicide, delusional thinking, schizoid breaks, homelessness and very often self treatment with illicit drug use. I am current in most of these states; homeless, suicidal, and just suffered psychosis during a covid infection and dealing with an odd perception of reality. Talking to people about their sadness I know, luckily, most people do not know what depression is. There is such large gap between mental health and mental illness.
    - mensetmanusman 4y ago
      It probably means little, but I’m sorry you are going through this.
      - FollowingTheDao 4y ago
        Thanks, it means a lot.
    - UnpossibleJim 4y ago
      It sucks and I'm truly sorry you have to deal with it. The only reason I know about it and can truly empathize is because I have epilepsy and my first medication caused severe clinical depression, my second made me suicidal and now my third (combinatorial, one of which is used as a bipolar medication weirdly) seems to have the fewest side effects. But saying that, it was different than just a mood and ot was, at least in my case, for sure chemical. Getting off of those medications was like flipping a switch, as I hadn't had depression or had suicidal thoughts in the past, or since. It was so bizarre and eye opening, to say the least.
      - FollowingTheDao 4y ago
        Yeah, I guess anything that tamps down the electrical firings in the brain is going to tap down all the electrical file and the brain and that’ll cause depression. Both bipolar and seizures are linked to a lot of the ion channel genetics. Like calcium potassium and sodium. I know I have a bunch of genetic changes and all of those. Be well.
  - dgellow 4y ago
    Also, depression symptoms can come and leave very suddenly and without reasons, it’s something completely foreign to people who didn’t experience that type of mood swing. Like you wake up feeling great and ready for the day, prepare your breakfast while thinking about all the cool things you want to do during the day, then you sit down and start crying for no reasons, and you’re now in the worst mood ever with very little control over how you feel. The whole thing is really violent.
    - harry8 4y ago
      I'm so sorry. None of it is remotely fair.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - dgellow 4y ago
        Yeah it’s a pain and really time consuming to deal with
  - CommitSyn 4y ago
    It's worth noting that although there are neurochemical and synaptic differences in individuals with depression and individuals without, the vast majority of the time it's due to environmental factors from chronic, long-term stress and unhappiness. There is no evidence to suggest any form of "chemical imbalance" happens from birth, or is lifelong, on a large scale. Therapy, building a positive social support group, and proper sleep, diet, and exercise are just as likely to "fix the chemical imbalance" as antidepressants. The chemical imbalance idea is an oversimplification of what is going on. There is evidence that giving a serotonin agonist helps symptoms of depression, giving a dopamine agonist helps ADHD symptoms, a dopamine antagonist helps with some symptoms of schizophrenia, etc. Therefore, you want to conclude that if blocking (or increasing) a neurotransmitter relieves symptoms, that the person did not have the right levels of the neurotransmitter in the first place, thus, a chemical imbalance. The problem with this idea is that simply changing the levels of a neurotransmitter does not necessarily cause a clinical effect. Take depression, once you start taking an SSRI, your serotonin levels start to increase right away, but you will not see the mood enhancing effects for a couple of weeks. This is likely because there are issues with serotonin receptors, and the flood of extra serotonin helps to reset them. For schizophrenia, if too much dopamine was the answer, we would expect to see increases in its metabolites, but we do not. More likely, there is a problem in the pathway that projects dopamine from the midbrain to the forebrain, which causes it to not function properly as negative feedback, therefore allowing over-activity of dopamine pathways from the midbrain to the limbic areas. I personally believe this is why many invidivuals report post-trip lessening of depression or anxiety, cessation of smoking or other addictive behaviors such as gambling, and even improvement of cluster personality disorders symptoms in some cases. It's not an inherent neurological trait, but a complex interaction in the way that you view the self and society. Psychedelics allow people to view situations and experiences in a way they've never viewed them before, and in a way this is giving a key to a perspective that they've never heard before but resonates deeply with them, helping to initiate serious change.
    - astrange 4y ago
      It’s entirely possible that SSRI effects aren’t from serotonin at all. https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/how-antidepressants-work-last https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/how-antidepressant... That’s why ketamine works better than they do, and why they take weeks to take effect unlike Adderall that’s near instant for ADHD.
- _moof 4y ago
  Clinical depression isn't a "mood."

all persons in the test did not have any sign of anxiety or depression, it's like getting a medicine for headache without an headache hoping that you will feel even better

mensetmanusman 4y ago

People without depression can feel moods

UnpossibleJim 4y ago
Moods are different than a person with clinical depression. That's comparable, in a hyperbolic way, to saying, everyone knows what it's like to break their leg because we've all stubbed our toe at some point. A person with a chemical imbalance cannot "just snap out of it", nor is it just a feeling of depression. There is a range of symptoms symptomology to go along with the diagnosis of true depression [1]. If left untreated, depending on severity, this can lead to suicide, delusional thinking, schizoid breaks, homelessness and very often self treatment with illicit drug use. [1] https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/depression/symptoms-causes/syc-20356007 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/depression/sy...
- mensetmanusman 4y ago
  All I’m pointing out is that this study isn’t necessarily focused on people with clinical depression. That isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but it’s probably not worth criticizing a study that is looking in a different subset domain of interest.
  - pseudalopex 4y ago
    It's worth criticizing an article that omitted a major limitation until the end.
    - httpsterio 4y ago
      I don't really understand how you see it as a limitation, the study wasn't aimed to find a cure for mental illnesses and neither did it try to sell it off as any such thing either. For some reason, you made the assumption but that's not a fail of the study.
      - pseudalopex 4y ago
        You seem to think limitation means flaw or falsehood. It means any limit. I criticized the article. Not the study. The study authors believed the limitation was so important they put it in the title.
- FollowingTheDao 4y ago
  I have to agree with this. It is the biggest flaw in the study. I have bipolar disorder and when I am depressed, I quickly know when something works. To negate the placebo effect at time I will trick myself taking prozac. When I am depressed I have found a single dose of prozac in one day will change my mood. Do I think someone who is not depressed would see mania taking one does of Prozac? > If left untreated, depending on severity, this can lead to suicide, delusional thinking, schizoid breaks, homelessness and very often self treatment with illicit drug use. I am current in most of these states; homeless, suicidal, and just suffered psychosis during a covid infection and dealing with an odd perception of reality. Talking to people about their sadness I know, luckily, most people do not know what depression is. There is such large gap between mental health and mental illness.
  - mensetmanusman 4y ago
    It probably means little, but I’m sorry you are going through this.
    - FollowingTheDao 4y ago
      Thanks, it means a lot.
  - UnpossibleJim 4y ago
    It sucks and I'm truly sorry you have to deal with it. The only reason I know about it and can truly empathize is because I have epilepsy and my first medication caused severe clinical depression, my second made me suicidal and now my third (combinatorial, one of which is used as a bipolar medication weirdly) seems to have the fewest side effects. But saying that, it was different than just a mood and ot was, at least in my case, for sure chemical. Getting off of those medications was like flipping a switch, as I hadn't had depression or had suicidal thoughts in the past, or since. It was so bizarre and eye opening, to say the least.
    - FollowingTheDao 4y ago
      Yeah, I guess anything that tamps down the electrical firings in the brain is going to tap down all the electrical file and the brain and that’ll cause depression. Both bipolar and seizures are linked to a lot of the ion channel genetics. Like calcium potassium and sodium. I know I have a bunch of genetic changes and all of those. Be well.
- dgellow 4y ago
  Also, depression symptoms can come and leave very suddenly and without reasons, it’s something completely foreign to people who didn’t experience that type of mood swing. Like you wake up feeling great and ready for the day, prepare your breakfast while thinking about all the cool things you want to do during the day, then you sit down and start crying for no reasons, and you’re now in the worst mood ever with very little control over how you feel. The whole thing is really violent.
  - harry8 4y ago
    I'm so sorry. None of it is remotely fair.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - dgellow 4y ago
      Yeah it’s a pain and really time consuming to deal with
- CommitSyn 4y ago
  It's worth noting that although there are neurochemical and synaptic differences in individuals with depression and individuals without, the vast majority of the time it's due to environmental factors from chronic, long-term stress and unhappiness. There is no evidence to suggest any form of "chemical imbalance" happens from birth, or is lifelong, on a large scale. Therapy, building a positive social support group, and proper sleep, diet, and exercise are just as likely to "fix the chemical imbalance" as antidepressants. The chemical imbalance idea is an oversimplification of what is going on. There is evidence that giving a serotonin agonist helps symptoms of depression, giving a dopamine agonist helps ADHD symptoms, a dopamine antagonist helps with some symptoms of schizophrenia, etc. Therefore, you want to conclude that if blocking (or increasing) a neurotransmitter relieves symptoms, that the person did not have the right levels of the neurotransmitter in the first place, thus, a chemical imbalance. The problem with this idea is that simply changing the levels of a neurotransmitter does not necessarily cause a clinical effect. Take depression, once you start taking an SSRI, your serotonin levels start to increase right away, but you will not see the mood enhancing effects for a couple of weeks. This is likely because there are issues with serotonin receptors, and the flood of extra serotonin helps to reset them. For schizophrenia, if too much dopamine was the answer, we would expect to see increases in its metabolites, but we do not. More likely, there is a problem in the pathway that projects dopamine from the midbrain to the forebrain, which causes it to not function properly as negative feedback, therefore allowing over-activity of dopamine pathways from the midbrain to the limbic areas. I personally believe this is why many invidivuals report post-trip lessening of depression or anxiety, cessation of smoking or other addictive behaviors such as gambling, and even improvement of cluster personality disorders symptoms in some cases. It's not an inherent neurological trait, but a complex interaction in the way that you view the self and society. Psychedelics allow people to view situations and experiences in a way they've never viewed them before, and in a way this is giving a key to a perspective that they've never heard before but resonates deeply with them, helping to initiate serious change.
  - astrange 4y ago
    It’s entirely possible that SSRI effects aren’t from serotonin at all. https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/how-antidepressants-work-last https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/how-antidepressant... That’s why ketamine works better than they do, and why they take weeks to take effect unlike Adderall that’s near instant for ADHD.
_moof 4y ago
Clinical depression isn't a "mood."