19 ms·

Restarting my career after motherhood

140 points by fraoulitsa 4y ago

hitpointdrew 4y ago
You might have a better chance at short term contract positions that could get a bit of recent experience, or a contract-to-hire type of position. Anyway best of luck to you. I admire your grit and determination.
- fraoulitsa 4y ago
  Thank you so much for your advice - I am sure I will eventually find the right oportunity:) I will be exploring these options as well. they might give me the push I need for my CV to be more recent and "desirable".
  - synu 4y ago
    Wishing you the best of luck. My wife is working through the same challenge, but has a good prospect at the moment we are hoping goes through. I’m sure if you stick with it you’ll make it, even though it’s a shame it’s this way in the first place. Out of curiosity what kind of work do you do?
- FollowingTheDao 4y ago
fraoulitsa 4y ago
As requested I add here my LinkedIn account: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maria-shippi-03321323a/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/maria-shippi-03321323a/ Thank you all for your feedback, thoughts, help and comments!
gus_massa 4y ago
I remember you were making a few videos of science activities for kids. Are you still making them? I remember this about mixing hot and cold water https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGpKH0Sobcs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGpKH0Sobcs I knew the effect before, but I thought it was not so fast.
- fraoulitsa 4y ago
  WOW I am shocked you remember! I wrote a book in parallel to the videos for science education in kindergarten. However, after almost a year of making the videos without an income o r a significant grow in my audience, I unfortunately stopped! I loved doing them, I miss them and I am happy I tried it out but reality is, that I need a way to have an income! But I am so happy you remembered the videos + experiements. The hot/cold water mixing experiment is super fun!I received lots of photographs from parents whose kids did it, and loved it:)
  - gus_massa 4y ago
    Is your CV available? (Or a short version. Do you have a High School degree? An University degree? Which area? Some work experience before the children?) My regular advice in life is to read whatever patio11 wrote about your problem. I'm not sure what applies. Do we have a @patio11 signal? Perhaps * https://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-programmer/ https://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-pr... HN discussions https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3170766 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3170766 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21303181 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21303181 and a few more https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=dont-call-yourself-a-programmer&sort=byPopularity&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... * https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/09/17/ramit-sethi-and-patrick-mckenzie-on-getting-your-first-consulting-client/ https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/09/17/ramit-sethi-and-patrick... NH discussion https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4533498 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4533498
    - fraoulitsa 4y ago
      Thanks for the links + advice, I will be following them to read everything refering there. Interesting to see many aspects of the same issue. I have degrees in Computer Science (BSc), and Neuroscience (MSc) with two years of being a researcher at the University at the Machine learning + Neuroscience department (hybrid). In parallel to my studies, I also started my own company for luxury wedding & events planning. My company was very successful and it was my only income stream for five years. I sold my company shortly after becoming a mother. Career wise, I am looking for a role that utilizes my analytical and technical skills but at the same time, it connects me with people online and in-person. I love content creation (social media, blogging, video creations and more).Not sure what the suitable role is.
exolymph 4y ago
Love the positive can-do attitude :) I trust that you'll land a great position, you've got the chutzpah and grit for sure! And since you were recently dealing with toddlers as your primary occupation, I assume your soft skills have gotten an excellent workout ;P
a-dub 4y ago
some large companies, (i've seen ads from facebook, although i'm sure there are others), have "returnship" programs for people in this exact situation. edit: see https://www.springboard.com/blog/career-advice/amazon-facebook-microsoft-returnship/ https://www.springboard.com/blog/career-advice/amazon-facebo...
- dbcurtis 4y ago
  Add Zoox to the list of companies with “returnship” programs.
  - germinalphrase 4y ago
    “Hubspot, Intuit, PayPal, IBM, Amazon, Facebook, and Microsoft” are called out in the article. If anyone is aware of additional companies, mind adding them to the thread?
m0llusk 4y ago
The software industry is like an abusive partner. Always desperate to hire STEM talent, but not you. Knowing a large number of people with similar experiences my recommendation is to start up something. Some very limited and targeted application or service is usually possible. If nothing else it is great practice that will improve skills. The amount of work required to get a job in the software industry is often far larger than the amount of work it takes to make a modest profit from applying yourself directly.
- DavidWoof 4y ago
  I don't see any indication in this article that she's in the software or STEM industry. Glancing over the rest of her articles don't give this indication at all, nor does her feeling that she's lacking knowledge of "markets, technologies and trends". If she were a software engineer, I'd have all sorts of advice on how to develop the skills to re-enter the job market.
  - gus_massa 4y ago
    from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31632463 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31632463 > I have degrees in Computer Science (BSc), and Neuroscience (MSc) with two years of being a researcher at the University at the Machine learning + Neuroscience department (hybrid). [...] but take a look at the whole comment. I'm not sure she is looking for a SWE position.
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  That's my take on it as well - it feels like on every hiring-related thread people aren't actually looking to hire, they're looking for reasons not to hire, which they will obviously find (or make up) given how subjective the process is.
spyremeown 4y ago
I strongly disagree with "I remained flat" statement. I mean, you were taking care of your children, weren't you? If you do it right (imho, if you even just try to do it right), it's the biggest accomplishment one can do. I understand how frustrating it must be to stay professionally flat compared to your peers. We absolutely should celebrate people taking their time off to literally raise the next humans, instead we're turning them down because they spent 5~6 years off the industry. How is this not counterproductive for humanity as a whole?
- stepanhruda 4y ago
  It’s pretty clear that’s what the author is talking about in that sentence - I remained [professionally] flat.
- knorker 4y ago
  Parenthood is by far the most subsidized personal choice in the universe. Let's not pretend it's not. Some countries give more than a year paid parental leave, in what can only be described as vote purchasing. Parenthood is compensated.
  - JaimeThompson 4y ago
    >Parenthood is by far the most subsidized personal choice in the universe. The amount spent on keeping shipping lanes protected, the world "stable", and older people having access to medical care are, in the US, subsidized more I believe.
    - knorker 4y ago
      Not a personal choice, though. It's not my choice to need care when I get old.
  - sz4kerto 4y ago
    It is really not compensated if you look at the financial side. The cost of raising a child plus the lost income because of parenting plus the fact that 'you remain flat' is way higher than months or even a year extra pay. It is worth it though for most people (because of the extra happiness) so I'm not saying that we should necessarily compensate it further, just that financially it's not compensated for.
mritchie712 4y ago
your response to rejection tells me you'll be perfectly fine. Any company would be lucky to have you. The first thing we list in our "requirements" for hiring is "grit" and you clearly have an abundance.
- remram 4y ago
  Putting grit in your job requirements is a huge red flag. Putting it as the top is really concerning. Working for a company shouldn't require grit. > grit, n: firmness of mind or spirit, unyielding courage in the face of hardship or danger What hardship or danger are employees subjected to, in your company? If this an excuse to blame burnout on employees' lack of fortitude? What systems are missing from your organization that make goals reliant on individuals' courage?
  - mritchie712 4y ago
    less extreme definition. to me, grit = persistence
  - dchftcs 4y ago
    Grit is required for many roles in competitive businesses. Commonly, it stands for never giving up. Hardship could include not being able complete a project due to reasons in or out of your control, but grit makes you not give up. Many sales jobs are like this. Many engineering and science jobs are like this. Otherwise, grit could be doing a tough thankless job day after day without quitting. Such as cleaning up sewage. People without grit could quit even if they get paid a 500k to do that job. You seem to have the idea that all jobs should be cushy and predictable. But some jobs are harder than others, and you personally benefit from people doing these hard jobs. A good company would compensate employees for taking calculated risks and don't demand excessive exposure to danger or other bad conditions The main question, then, would be whether the people doing those jobs are properly compensated for it. Personally I don't think that's generally the case, because companies tend to pay too much to white collar workers like you who demand everything to be easy and say simply asking for "grit" is a red flag. Soldiers must be exposed to danger, and grit is a requirement for being a good soldier, and personally I think they're not treated well enough.
jedberg 4y ago
My friend just made this same journey, returning to the workforce after being a SAHM for a bunch of years. One thing she did which probably helped was publish YouTube videos about tech topics. She'd just pick a topic, research it, and make a training video on it. She also started using twitter a lot and having conversations with prolific tweeters in her area of expertise. Basically she upped her public profile and got noticed.
knorker 4y ago
> However, being a stay-at-home mum came at the cost of my career I wish anyone in this position nothing but the best, but this should come as no surprise. It reminds me of a comedy bit where a guy asks "so when you were in school, you studied, hung out with friends, got a girlfriend, and so on -- yeah? -- if you'd been on the computer every waking hour like i was then you wouldn't be standing here today like an idiot". It's a joke, but the truth is that there are only 24h in the day, and nobody can "have it all". There's always a road less traveled, even if you traveled the best road for you.
MomoXenosaga 4y ago
[flagged]
orzig 4y ago
One thing to remember is that while you might not feel as qualified for as many positions as you wish, in the end you only need one. And since you have a demonstrated willingness and ability to forgo maximum income in pursuit of higher ideals, I suspect many mission oriented organizations would be thrilled to have you for roles they might not even have bothered to post on the assumption they couldn’t compete for talent given their budget
- kelseyfrog 4y ago
  This is a great example of how women face income gaps after childbirth.
  - Taurenking 4y ago
bunbunbun 4y ago
Mothers returning to work should get the same ‘service’ considerations that military veterans get
- Beltalowda 4y ago
  What kind of things do military veterans get? I'm dimly aware something exists in the US, but I'm not from the US so not sure what that is exactly.
  - the__alchemist 4y ago
    Fast-track into (US) Federal Gov jobs and contracts.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > What kind of things do military veterans get? Preference for all public-sector jobs (not just federal, but I think all fifty states give some forms of veterans preference, and a handful give “absolute preference” where a minimally-qualified veteran must be hired over a non-veteran regardless of qualifications.) But even where its not absolute preference, it often is a very strong preference (e.g., California on open civil service exams typically limits hiring to the top 3 ranks on the resulting hiring list, with each rank being 5 points of exam score on a 100-point, before preference points, scale. Veterans get 10 extra points, or 15 if they have a qualifying degree of disability.)
- FollowingTheDao 4y ago
  - dang 4y ago
    Whoa - posting like this will get you banned here, regardless of how right you are or feel you are. I respect the family tragedy you're referring to, but it deserves better than this. The community does also. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
FollowingTheDao 4y ago
thriftwy 4y ago
Getting rejections is not a slap to the face. In many areas it's a normal expectation to be rejected a lot. If you are only getting rejections, you may try either lowering your expectations or getting some relevant skills to beef up your offering on the market.
ushakov 4y ago
the reason you’re rejected is because you can’t dedicate all your life to work because you also have to focus on raising a child you are not at fault of course, but many companies think of you as their resource and won’t allow that (ever wondered why the department is called “Human Resources”?)
sweettea 4y ago
I'm proud that my employer has a specific program to help folks who have taken a break in their careers rejoin the workforce. While we are currently mostly only hiring production engineers, the author and others in this situation should check out Meta's return-to-work program: https://www.metacareers.com/facebook-life/return-to-work/ https://www.metacareers.com/facebook-life/return-to-work/
- trashface 4y ago
  Interesting, I didn't know Meta was doing that, thanks for linking it. I might try that in a few months. I'm not ready to return to work yet - I'm not a parent but out of work for other reasons.
maxk42 4y ago
> So far, I got rejected from over twenty job opportunities. That's nothing. I've been continuously employed for over 20 years. I just got a job a few weeks ago after two months of unemployment. I kept a record of every application and in the end there were more than 130 of them. I ended up with several offers and got a great job but I had far more than 20 rejections for every offer I received and I consider that a very good result for the outcome I had and wouldn't refer to it as "a slap in the face".
- russellendicott 4y ago
  Yeah, agree here. Even with a stream of continuous employment, nobody gets a job by submitting CV's to websites. You have to have a network. Best advice I would give to anyone taking a break from work is to stay in touch with your old coworkers-take them out to lunch occasionally, stop by the office and bring cookies, etc.
  - aperson_hello 4y ago
    It's possible. I've done it twice. But it takes hundreds of applications for every "yes"
    - FunnyBadger 4y ago
      Absolutely true! Just like in programming, I'd rather write a hack program to replace that monotony. That hack program is networking. :-)
    - janeerie 4y ago
      Yes, I have gotten nearly every one of my jobs by applying through a website. If you're applying for roles that are a reasonable fit, you have a decent chance of getting a response.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - bradlys 4y ago
spoonjim 4y ago
If you take N years off from a career, you should expect ahead of time to become a less compelling candidate to hire for highly skilled work. 1) your skills are assumed rustier and 2) you have fewer years left in your career so you have less room for promotion to executive levels (big companies need to be thinking about hiring their CEO 20 years from now). If you don’t want this to happen to your career, 1) get better at something that can be objectively measured or 2) don’t take N years off from your career.
- mattgreenrocks 4y ago
  3) make your career about something more than climbing up an imaginary ladder that largely exists to motivate you into giving more while getting less and less in return. YMMV, of course!
- lapcat 4y ago
  > 2) don’t take N years off from your career. I don't think the author is looking for life advice from you. "Being a stay-at-home mum was my choice." She doesn't appear to be kicking herself for becoming a mother. Whether she "expected" this or not, whether it was a "surprise", is not particularly relevant. That's not the issue, it's a red herring. She made her choice, willingly, and now she's looking to restart her career. It feels like some commenters are looking more to be judgmental than helpful. The survival of humanity itself depends on people having and raising children. But then we turn around and act like it's some kind of personal mistake, a poor choice for which someone deserves social punishment, as opposed to a natural part of life. Why is a gap in someone's résumé viewed as abnormal rather than expected? If anyone deserves to be lectured, it's the employers who are "surprised" that résumé gaps occur and "expect" candidates to have no gaps.
  - spoonjim 4y ago
    Sure, treat having children as the norm, I have kids, I love it. But I expect to be leapfrogged in my career by people who passed on a family and chose the career grinding lifestyle, and that's in fact what happened. But I'm not going to make a surprised Pikachu face about it.
JamesBarney 4y ago
> The first two weeks of career hunting were interesting She's really just started applying to jobs. Also on upwork you need to get in some experience before you can apply for decent paying jobs which means wetting for peanuts on a few small jobs.
mbubb 4y ago
good luck - I really feel for you and know others who have struggled with similar job search frustrations... I lost a position over a year ago and found myself scrambling for a new role as an older person in tech. I thought of a few things that might help. In my case I was trying to move into medical tech software infra role in NYC. I needed to find ways of talking to people in the target field in a low pressure way - I got an invite to https://lunchclub.com/ https://lunchclub.com/ and started having chats with people who worked in tech with a medical focus. I met someone who worked for the CDC and another person who was a nurse who developed a new kind of injection needle, etc I could ask them lots of questions about their work and get comfort in talking about related topics. It helped in my case as it helped me relax - I am not extroverted and I needed to develop fluidity in this way. I am not recommending lunchclub over any other such service - it is the one I used. I would guess there are more option in this space... In my case I found a job in a nonmedical field but the company is a pretty amazing fit and I feel lucky. I feel like the ability to relax in the interview process really helped. Another thing I thought about with your post is - consider not applying for junior positions - the ugly language in the response letter you got is telling you that I think. It requires bravery and squelching the 'impostor syndrome' feelings but you are not a junior employee. You have life experience. Look for employers that seem to signal that they will hire based upon your aptitude rather than "x years in such a position". Another question - are you contacting companies directly? YMMV but I get much better interactions with internal recruiters than head hunters. Try targetting companies even if they don't list exactly the job you are looking for. Very best of luck
gumby 4y ago
I had a similar issue: I unexpectedly became a single father and ended up just doing that full time for seven years (well I did work for about 15 months in the middle but had to give that up). I understand what she’s talking about. There were many differences for me though. For one I had a rich network (she doesn’t mention this) so when, a couple of years ago, my gf urged me to get a job I ended up with a lot of recruiter calls. But TBH they couldn’t grok my bg and I’m not really a big company guy. Also I already had multi-year gaps in my work history so this wasn’t an existential issue for me as it might be for most people. Third, I’m male and the biases in business are different. Not just in business: a father traveling with a kid is offered all sorts of help and accommodation while a woman with kids is largely invisible. I could write a whole book on this! But on the business side I wasn’t asked the kinds of family questions that I hear women are asked. In fact “I had to become a full time parent” is usually received with sympathy rather than as a sign of unseriousness. In the end I did what I usually do which is start a company. My co founder is a widow, and also a former software developer, and she struggled* more like the author of this piece. The idiots who didn’t hire her really missed out! My gf’s path involved an unexpected hack: she took only a few years off when her kids were small but she and her then husband needed the income so she started working for a tiny consulting boutique, initially part time. That let her slowly transition into consulting on her own. * Disclaimer: we have never discussed this directly though: this comes through when we talk about hiring.
- fartcannon 4y ago
  As a current full time dad, I get the total opposite feeling. My wife's employer bends over backwards to accommodate her financially and with various options to continue her work how and if she pleases with seemingly no end to their support while I was pushed to return to work at 6 weeks. When I left to become full time (my wife returned to her job with a promotion and raise), it wasn't because I wanted to but because my employer doesn't recognize men as parents. So my career stopped in its tracks. Now, years later, applying for the same job as before, even with my old employer, there's no acknowledgement of my effort, no raises, no promotions, and least of all no compassion for my desire to work part time, remotely for the flexibility I need to handle a kid. Worse, they think I took a 'break'. I don't know where you're meeting these accommodating people, I just get stared at like I'm doing something wrong when I travel with my child. God forbid I want to use the change table in the woman's washroom because there's none in the men's. I just change my kid on the grass outside, trying to ignore the looks and comments like, "Moms day off?"
chandmk 4y ago
I am thinking about, All those parents who are forced to work but always wanted to stay back and provide best care for their kids but couldn't do so.. feeling a gut punch. Parents who chose career path and gets the slap in the face moments every time they realized that they could have spent more time with the kids instead of the work. Is it possible to eat the cake and have it too?
- acid_dog 4y ago
  Possibly with part time work but it can be hard to find, and it's still a compromise.
- barefeg 4y ago
  The philosophy I try to follow (which I borrowed from someone else) is: sometimes eat the cake, sometimes have it. Meaning if I’m trying to develop my career for a promotion or new job, I’ll adjust the priorities to achieve that, I.e. spend enough time with the kid, sacrifice me-time, sometimes a bit of sleep, etc. And once I achieve it, then “cool off” a bit, meaning spend all my spare time with the kid, finish work at 5, don’t hesitate to take PTO, etc.
- treis 4y ago
  Yeah but you've got to learn to let things go. I'm temporarily single parenting with a full time job and it doesn't have to be that hard. Like kiddo usually eats microwaved meat & vegetables plus a pasta/rice that I cook twice a week. Is that worse than a cooked from scratch meal? Everyone will say yes, but he's getting the macronutrients and vitamins he needs so what difference does it make? Kind of applies to everything. Some days he doesn't get a bath, the house gets wild, I put a movie on because I'm tired of his shit and so on. But I'm 80-90% of ideal but that's enough for 99%+ of the benefits. I've seen reflections of OP in a lot of parents in my life. They fall into two categories: Type As that direct this sort of extreme level of effort to anything they do. Anxiety/OCD that just can't let that little bit of benefit go combined with satisfying their complusion of controlling everything.
  - gus_massa 4y ago
mattgreenrocks 4y ago
To the author: what exactly are you looking for? As in, what type of job, position, desired amount of work per week, etc? There are people here that may be able to help.
- fraoulitsa 4y ago
  Thank you so much for reading my blog and for asking all these questions. I am very grateful for everyone's interest + support! I do not have specific requirements. I am flexible in terms of hours/week etc. I am looking on entering a career that utilizes my strong Computer Science + Analytical skills and a career that allows me to develop/ use my content creation skills/ passion, networking, events, communication, digital marketing etc. I am not sure what is the right role for me. So far, I look into content creator jobs, digital marketing/sales, business advocacy, and more! I am eager to learn and grow, so I would be incredibly happy with trainee/ internships/ apprenticeships/ return to work programs!!! Again thank you so much for asking me, it's so supportitive!
  - mattgreenrocks 4y ago
    You are welcome. Given that this blog is on HN I would think about amending your article with some of these details too. Let people know. There will be some that want to help.
    - bsk7 4y ago
      Exactly. Consider adding a link to your LinkedIn profile or your CV on your Medium post so folks that are looking to help (referrals, hiring managers, recruiters) can review your skills and experience.
  - JonChesterfield 4y ago
    Twins is brutal. Software dev seems an easy choice from a computer science background.
jmyeet 4y ago
As for Upwork, this is optimized for people in low cost-of-living countries. I wouldn't take rejection there to be anything. Here's what you do: you lie by omission. By this I mean you imply you went to college during or after any experience you have. Do not specify when you graduated. Don't specify what years you went to college. They can't really ask because that risks age discrimination. Put work experience first then college afterwards. This gives the impression of chronological order without saying that's the case. You can even leave off work experience you don't think is relevant or will help you, particularly for entry-level positions. If you're concerned you're competing with new grads then come across as a new grad with some experience. > However, being a stay-at-home mum came at the cost of my career. To generalize, doing anything for 5-6 years will come at the cost of your career. This isn't specific to raising children.
SMAAART 4y ago
> So far, I got rejected from over twenty job opportunities. That's all? I am in the middle of a job search, I am gainfully employed, I just got a raise and a new bonus structure, and yes I have been "rejected" by well over 100 positions, I have been a finalist in at least 3 or 4 (maybe 5) and 1 offer was rescinded at the last moment for reason unrelated to me/my qualifications. There was a time in my life when I was in a similar situation returning to my professional career after a 5-year sabbatical in a different field and as an entrepreneur, so I know the pain of convincing prospective employers to hire me. We don't like it, but it's a numbers game. Period. 20 is not a meaningful number. 4,000 is.
ComradePhil 4y ago
During the industrial revolution, a lot of propaganda and manipulation techniques were used to get women into wage slavery. While it is a good option to have women who can help out, it is not a necessity.
- gus_massa 4y ago
  Women worked also before industrial revolution. For example there is a looooong serie about cloth production by the Romans https://acoup.blog/2021/03/05/collections-clothing-how-did-they-make-it-part-i-high-fiber/ https://acoup.blog/2021/03/05/collections-clothing-how-did-t... Most of that work was done by women, and [spoiler alert] he estimates that it was like 8 hours per day. HN discussions https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=Clothing%20acoup.blog&sort=byDate&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
  - ComradePhil 4y ago
    Because if they didn't, their kids would starve to death because their husband was either dead or debilitated.
epx 4y ago
Never understood this employer fixation on unbroken careers. A career break may happen to anyone by infinite reasons beyond motherhood. Most people have such career-pausing or career-delaying events (health issues, depression, fatherhood, taking care of an elderly relative), most conceal it, motherhood just happens not to be concealable. And things don't change as fast. Not even in IT. And even if changed, legacy is always there, begging for someone to take care of it instead of going to the newest shiny thing. People out of the market need some warm-up time? Yes, they do. Even machines need to warm-up, dammit. What people should understand, is that the economy turns because there are mothers, fathers, and kids. I would be retired at 35 if didn't marry and hadn't a kid. Once upon a time I was buying a car, the saleswoman was worried about her job because of her pregnancy. I said "I am buying a new car because of the kid. No pregnant women, no car sales." (If I were single or divorced, would have a couple vintage cars.)
- mschuster91 4y ago
  > What people should understand, is that the economy turns because there are mothers, fathers, and kids. The problem is that capitalism by nature cannot and will not account for this, at least not for publicly traded companies. Capitalism always ends up optimizing for the maximum amount of profit allowed by the law - and simple maths explain what is going on. When you have 10.000 employees, a turnover rate of 5% annually and a person that has been out of a continuous career for a year needs a month more time to get up to speed (to simplify, I assume they operate at 50% of the productivity during that time) than someone who is freshly hired from somewhere else, that is 500 person-months or (assuming 50k/year) ~1 million $ a year. Obviously the larger the company and the larger the salaries, the bigger the cost savings. And I didn't include the loss of productivity in the people who on-board the new hires either. This is why employment and anti-discrimination laws and regulations matter: they level the playing field for everyone.
  - AzzieElbab 4y ago
    This type of “optimisations” is not unique to capitalism. In fact, in USSR some positions were simply semi-officially unavailable to young married women due to assumption that if you hire one she’d be away on maternity leave within weeks.
FunnyBadger 4y ago
If you take a different path, you should remember that many such a choice was made and it's usually irreversible. And then you must also use the consequences of that decision to direct your "return" - strictly you can never really return "status quo ante". There's an opportunity cost you've already committed to and taken. You close a door but a window opens - but you NEVER have all the same choices ever again. This strictly happens even without having children just you don't notice the gap caused by opportunity cost as much. And that's perfectly OK. BUT if you think it is a reversible choice, then you are the cause any trouble that results. Instead think outside the box instead because you must. I'm guy who's rarely taken the "safe path" of a career. For example, my father worked for the same company for 40 years; I've never worked in the same job for more than 5 years. And the range of jobs I've had covers a wide range of industries despite always being technical. I've had to do the above "contextual reset" over and over again. It's both a pain in the ass and a joy at the same time. The latter mostly because it means everything must be "new" again; the former because you are forced out of your comfort zone as your prior job defined it. Each time I changed jobs, the change was big enough that I destroyed my chanceso to ever "follow the original career continuity path". I could never "recover" status quo ante by simply going back to any one of those jobs expecting nothing had changed nor expecting I should be caught up with anyone else who didn't take a diversion. You can't go back. But you can find a new direction with new strengths and weaknesses that never would have been possible if you'd never left. It's time to get creative. Honestly it's a WONDERFUL opportunity that this kind of career diversion creates. You need to reset your context in planning next moves. But you've made an irreversible decisions. Having children is one of those. Doing what I have done is much the same. BTW I learned early in my career that resumes/CVs are low effort and low effectiveness. I stopped using them as my primary job search tool except to "seal the deal with HR bureaucracy" after I'm already "hired" back in my 20s (I turn 60 this year). I NEVER "lead" a job search with a resume; I lead with network building and one-on-one campaigns to find the job I WANT at the company I'VE DECIDED TO WORK AT. My current employer was CHOSEN to be an M&A target for my most recent startup. The person to "closed" our acquisition is someone I networked with 15 years before.
mmcnl 4y ago
Why is at always the mothers who choose to be stay-at-home mothers, and very rarely fathers? In my opinion this makes things extra hard for mothers who want to resume their career, because men are used to working with men who don't take breaks from their career to raise their children. Taking time off to raise your children is a personal choice, but it doesn't make any sense that it's almost never the fathers who stay at home. The mother from the article writes: being a stay-at-home mum came at the cost of my career. But why doesn't the father write: not staying home for my children came at the cost of their mother's career. Children have fathers and mothers. Both fathers and mothers should carry this responsibility equally. It's not impossible. As long as raising a child is seen as a responsibility of the mother and less of the father, mothers will always face more difficulties in their career. Disclaimer: ofcourse there are exceptions where there is only one parent who is availabile to carry the responsibility, but in general when the mother stays at home it's not due to external circumstances, but rather a personal preference.
- pavel_lishin 4y ago
  > Why is at always the mothers who choose to be stay-at-home mothers, and very rarely fathers Because on average, fathers tend to make more than mothers. That's not the only calculation, but it's a big one.
  - analog31 4y ago
    That was the case in my family. Similar backgrounds, 2x salary difference.
  - mmcnl 4y ago
    Why don't the father and mother both work less? I.e. 4 days (32 hours) instead of 5 days (40 hours). As long as this is not common practice, combined with expensive or inaccessible daycare, women will always face more difficulties in their career. There's no biological justification for this, instead it's entirely the result of cultural conventions and political decisions. I think we should recognize this, because if we don't, gender equality will be out of reach in the near future.
timcavel 4y ago
bradlys 4y ago
We’d have to change societal expectations and the capitalistic behaviors within our global society to really make this problem lessened. (Not happening) I’ve known quite a few women who took a break and got back into work - it wasn’t too bad for them. That said - they live in SV, well educated, etc. I can believe many who take longer breaks could struggle but the author isn’t even a month into their search. (The leetcode studying can be a hassle enough in itself) I’ve often been told that as a man, I’d have to provide for my wife while she takes care of the kids. I’ve often resisted this because I think it’s patriarchal bullshit. People argue logistical points but there are solutions thanks to capitalism. Who is gonna carry the kid? Well, the woman can but that doesn’t mean you’re entitled to years off of work post-preg. I’d give you no longer than the standard time off at FAANG plus a month as compensation for your work of getting to eat whatever and destroy your body (I’m not a fan - neither would you if you saw me permanently gain 40lbs of fat). Alternatively - we pay for a surrogate. I’ll pay the cost if it means you have to play corporate war games. $100k for a few years off and you don’t lose your great body and have postpartum who the fuck knows? Sounds extremely cheap and advantageous to me! Yes, please! What about breast milk?! Women donate that and I can buy it. Again - cheap in the scheme of things. At this point - it devolves. It’s clear it’s about want and not need. It’s just annoying people rarely take this stance because it’s shown to be a selfish choice and shown as one that is actually more enjoyable than corporate war games. Yes, it turns out $500k+/yr jobs are often very stressful, competitive, and full of hell. No wonder you want to escape - but so do I.

140 points by fraoulitsa 4y ago

You might have a better chance at short term contract positions that could get a bit of recent experience, or a contract-to-hire type of position. Anyway best of luck to you. I admire your grit and determination.

fraoulitsa 4y ago
Thank you so much for your advice - I am sure I will eventually find the right oportunity:) I will be exploring these options as well. they might give me the push I need for my CV to be more recent and "desirable".
- synu 4y ago
  Wishing you the best of luck. My wife is working through the same challenge, but has a good prospect at the moment we are hoping goes through. I’m sure if you stick with it you’ll make it, even though it’s a shame it’s this way in the first place. Out of curiosity what kind of work do you do?
FollowingTheDao 4y ago

fraoulitsa 4y ago

As requested I add here my LinkedIn account: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maria-shippi-03321323a/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/maria-shippi-03321323a/ Thank you all for your feedback, thoughts, help and comments!

gus_massa 4y ago

I remember you were making a few videos of science activities for kids. Are you still making them? I remember this about mixing hot and cold water https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGpKH0Sobcs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGpKH0Sobcs I knew the effect before, but I thought it was not so fast.

fraoulitsa 4y ago
WOW I am shocked you remember! I wrote a book in parallel to the videos for science education in kindergarten. However, after almost a year of making the videos without an income o r a significant grow in my audience, I unfortunately stopped! I loved doing them, I miss them and I am happy I tried it out but reality is, that I need a way to have an income! But I am so happy you remembered the videos + experiements. The hot/cold water mixing experiment is super fun!I received lots of photographs from parents whose kids did it, and loved it:)
- gus_massa 4y ago
  Is your CV available? (Or a short version. Do you have a High School degree? An University degree? Which area? Some work experience before the children?) My regular advice in life is to read whatever patio11 wrote about your problem. I'm not sure what applies. Do we have a @patio11 signal? Perhaps * https://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-programmer/ https://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-pr... HN discussions https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3170766 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3170766 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21303181 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21303181 and a few more https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=dont-call-yourself-a-programmer&sort=byPopularity&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... * https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/09/17/ramit-sethi-and-patrick-mckenzie-on-getting-your-first-consulting-client/ https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/09/17/ramit-sethi-and-patrick... NH discussion https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4533498 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4533498
  - fraoulitsa 4y ago
    Thanks for the links + advice, I will be following them to read everything refering there. Interesting to see many aspects of the same issue. I have degrees in Computer Science (BSc), and Neuroscience (MSc) with two years of being a researcher at the University at the Machine learning + Neuroscience department (hybrid). In parallel to my studies, I also started my own company for luxury wedding & events planning. My company was very successful and it was my only income stream for five years. I sold my company shortly after becoming a mother. Career wise, I am looking for a role that utilizes my analytical and technical skills but at the same time, it connects me with people online and in-person. I love content creation (social media, blogging, video creations and more).Not sure what the suitable role is.

exolymph 4y ago

Love the positive can-do attitude :) I trust that you'll land a great position, you've got the chutzpah and grit for sure! And since you were recently dealing with toddlers as your primary occupation, I assume your soft skills have gotten an excellent workout ;P

a-dub 4y ago

some large companies, (i've seen ads from facebook, although i'm sure there are others), have "returnship" programs for people in this exact situation. edit: see https://www.springboard.com/blog/career-advice/amazon-facebook-microsoft-returnship/ https://www.springboard.com/blog/career-advice/amazon-facebo...

dbcurtis 4y ago
Add Zoox to the list of companies with “returnship” programs.
- germinalphrase 4y ago
  “Hubspot, Intuit, PayPal, IBM, Amazon, Facebook, and Microsoft” are called out in the article. If anyone is aware of additional companies, mind adding them to the thread?

m0llusk 4y ago

The software industry is like an abusive partner. Always desperate to hire STEM talent, but not you. Knowing a large number of people with similar experiences my recommendation is to start up something. Some very limited and targeted application or service is usually possible. If nothing else it is great practice that will improve skills. The amount of work required to get a job in the software industry is often far larger than the amount of work it takes to make a modest profit from applying yourself directly.

DavidWoof 4y ago
I don't see any indication in this article that she's in the software or STEM industry. Glancing over the rest of her articles don't give this indication at all, nor does her feeling that she's lacking knowledge of "markets, technologies and trends". If she were a software engineer, I'd have all sorts of advice on how to develop the skills to re-enter the job market.
- gus_massa 4y ago
  from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31632463 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31632463 > I have degrees in Computer Science (BSc), and Neuroscience (MSc) with two years of being a researcher at the University at the Machine learning + Neuroscience department (hybrid). [...] but take a look at the whole comment. I'm not sure she is looking for a SWE position.
Nextgrid 4y ago
That's my take on it as well - it feels like on every hiring-related thread people aren't actually looking to hire, they're looking for reasons not to hire, which they will obviously find (or make up) given how subjective the process is.

spyremeown 4y ago

I strongly disagree with "I remained flat" statement. I mean, you were taking care of your children, weren't you? If you do it right (imho, if you even just try to do it right), it's the biggest accomplishment one can do. I understand how frustrating it must be to stay professionally flat compared to your peers. We absolutely should celebrate people taking their time off to literally raise the next humans, instead we're turning them down because they spent 5~6 years off the industry. How is this not counterproductive for humanity as a whole?

stepanhruda 4y ago
It’s pretty clear that’s what the author is talking about in that sentence - I remained [professionally] flat.
knorker 4y ago
Parenthood is by far the most subsidized personal choice in the universe. Let's not pretend it's not. Some countries give more than a year paid parental leave, in what can only be described as vote purchasing. Parenthood is compensated.
- JaimeThompson 4y ago
  >Parenthood is by far the most subsidized personal choice in the universe. The amount spent on keeping shipping lanes protected, the world "stable", and older people having access to medical care are, in the US, subsidized more I believe.
  - knorker 4y ago
    Not a personal choice, though. It's not my choice to need care when I get old.
- sz4kerto 4y ago
  It is really not compensated if you look at the financial side. The cost of raising a child plus the lost income because of parenting plus the fact that 'you remain flat' is way higher than months or even a year extra pay. It is worth it though for most people (because of the extra happiness) so I'm not saying that we should necessarily compensate it further, just that financially it's not compensated for.

mritchie712 4y ago

your response to rejection tells me you'll be perfectly fine. Any company would be lucky to have you. The first thing we list in our "requirements" for hiring is "grit" and you clearly have an abundance.

remram 4y ago
Putting grit in your job requirements is a huge red flag. Putting it as the top is really concerning. Working for a company shouldn't require grit. > grit, n: firmness of mind or spirit, unyielding courage in the face of hardship or danger What hardship or danger are employees subjected to, in your company? If this an excuse to blame burnout on employees' lack of fortitude? What systems are missing from your organization that make goals reliant on individuals' courage?
- mritchie712 4y ago
  less extreme definition. to me, grit = persistence
- dchftcs 4y ago
  Grit is required for many roles in competitive businesses. Commonly, it stands for never giving up. Hardship could include not being able complete a project due to reasons in or out of your control, but grit makes you not give up. Many sales jobs are like this. Many engineering and science jobs are like this. Otherwise, grit could be doing a tough thankless job day after day without quitting. Such as cleaning up sewage. People without grit could quit even if they get paid a 500k to do that job. You seem to have the idea that all jobs should be cushy and predictable. But some jobs are harder than others, and you personally benefit from people doing these hard jobs. A good company would compensate employees for taking calculated risks and don't demand excessive exposure to danger or other bad conditions The main question, then, would be whether the people doing those jobs are properly compensated for it. Personally I don't think that's generally the case, because companies tend to pay too much to white collar workers like you who demand everything to be easy and say simply asking for "grit" is a red flag. Soldiers must be exposed to danger, and grit is a requirement for being a good soldier, and personally I think they're not treated well enough.

jedberg 4y ago

My friend just made this same journey, returning to the workforce after being a SAHM for a bunch of years. One thing she did which probably helped was publish YouTube videos about tech topics. She'd just pick a topic, research it, and make a training video on it. She also started using twitter a lot and having conversations with prolific tweeters in her area of expertise. Basically she upped her public profile and got noticed.

knorker 4y ago

> However, being a stay-at-home mum came at the cost of my career I wish anyone in this position nothing but the best, but this should come as no surprise. It reminds me of a comedy bit where a guy asks "so when you were in school, you studied, hung out with friends, got a girlfriend, and so on -- yeah? -- if you'd been on the computer every waking hour like i was then you wouldn't be standing here today like an idiot". It's a joke, but the truth is that there are only 24h in the day, and nobody can "have it all". There's always a road less traveled, even if you traveled the best road for you.

MomoXenosaga 4y ago

[flagged]

orzig 4y ago

One thing to remember is that while you might not feel as qualified for as many positions as you wish, in the end you only need one. And since you have a demonstrated willingness and ability to forgo maximum income in pursuit of higher ideals, I suspect many mission oriented organizations would be thrilled to have you for roles they might not even have bothered to post on the assumption they couldn’t compete for talent given their budget

kelseyfrog 4y ago
This is a great example of how women face income gaps after childbirth.
- Taurenking 4y ago

bunbunbun 4y ago

Mothers returning to work should get the same ‘service’ considerations that military veterans get

Beltalowda 4y ago
What kind of things do military veterans get? I'm dimly aware something exists in the US, but I'm not from the US so not sure what that is exactly.
- the__alchemist 4y ago
  Fast-track into (US) Federal Gov jobs and contracts.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > What kind of things do military veterans get? Preference for all public-sector jobs (not just federal, but I think all fifty states give some forms of veterans preference, and a handful give “absolute preference” where a minimally-qualified veteran must be hired over a non-veteran regardless of qualifications.) But even where its not absolute preference, it often is a very strong preference (e.g., California on open civil service exams typically limits hiring to the top 3 ranks on the resulting hiring list, with each rank being 5 points of exam score on a 100-point, before preference points, scale. Veterans get 10 extra points, or 15 if they have a qualifying degree of disability.)
FollowingTheDao 4y ago
- dang 4y ago
  Whoa - posting like this will get you banned here, regardless of how right you are or feel you are. I respect the family tragedy you're referring to, but it deserves better than this. The community does also. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.

FollowingTheDao 4y ago

thriftwy 4y ago

Getting rejections is not a slap to the face. In many areas it's a normal expectation to be rejected a lot. If you are only getting rejections, you may try either lowering your expectations or getting some relevant skills to beef up your offering on the market.

ushakov 4y ago

the reason you’re rejected is because you can’t dedicate all your life to work because you also have to focus on raising a child you are not at fault of course, but many companies think of you as their resource and won’t allow that (ever wondered why the department is called “Human Resources”?)

sweettea 4y ago

I'm proud that my employer has a specific program to help folks who have taken a break in their careers rejoin the workforce. While we are currently mostly only hiring production engineers, the author and others in this situation should check out Meta's return-to-work program: https://www.metacareers.com/facebook-life/return-to-work/ https://www.metacareers.com/facebook-life/return-to-work/

trashface 4y ago
Interesting, I didn't know Meta was doing that, thanks for linking it. I might try that in a few months. I'm not ready to return to work yet - I'm not a parent but out of work for other reasons.

maxk42 4y ago

> So far, I got rejected from over twenty job opportunities. That's nothing. I've been continuously employed for over 20 years. I just got a job a few weeks ago after two months of unemployment. I kept a record of every application and in the end there were more than 130 of them. I ended up with several offers and got a great job but I had far more than 20 rejections for every offer I received and I consider that a very good result for the outcome I had and wouldn't refer to it as "a slap in the face".

russellendicott 4y ago
Yeah, agree here. Even with a stream of continuous employment, nobody gets a job by submitting CV's to websites. You have to have a network. Best advice I would give to anyone taking a break from work is to stay in touch with your old coworkers-take them out to lunch occasionally, stop by the office and bring cookies, etc.
- aperson_hello 4y ago
  It's possible. I've done it twice. But it takes hundreds of applications for every "yes"
  - FunnyBadger 4y ago
    Absolutely true! Just like in programming, I'd rather write a hack program to replace that monotony. That hack program is networking. :-)
  - janeerie 4y ago
    Yes, I have gotten nearly every one of my jobs by applying through a website. If you're applying for roles that are a reasonable fit, you have a decent chance of getting a response.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- bradlys 4y ago

spoonjim 4y ago

If you take N years off from a career, you should expect ahead of time to become a less compelling candidate to hire for highly skilled work. 1) your skills are assumed rustier and 2) you have fewer years left in your career so you have less room for promotion to executive levels (big companies need to be thinking about hiring their CEO 20 years from now). If you don’t want this to happen to your career, 1) get better at something that can be objectively measured or 2) don’t take N years off from your career.

mattgreenrocks 4y ago
3) make your career about something more than climbing up an imaginary ladder that largely exists to motivate you into giving more while getting less and less in return. YMMV, of course!
lapcat 4y ago
> 2) don’t take N years off from your career. I don't think the author is looking for life advice from you. "Being a stay-at-home mum was my choice." She doesn't appear to be kicking herself for becoming a mother. Whether she "expected" this or not, whether it was a "surprise", is not particularly relevant. That's not the issue, it's a red herring. She made her choice, willingly, and now she's looking to restart her career. It feels like some commenters are looking more to be judgmental than helpful. The survival of humanity itself depends on people having and raising children. But then we turn around and act like it's some kind of personal mistake, a poor choice for which someone deserves social punishment, as opposed to a natural part of life. Why is a gap in someone's résumé viewed as abnormal rather than expected? If anyone deserves to be lectured, it's the employers who are "surprised" that résumé gaps occur and "expect" candidates to have no gaps.
- spoonjim 4y ago
  Sure, treat having children as the norm, I have kids, I love it. But I expect to be leapfrogged in my career by people who passed on a family and chose the career grinding lifestyle, and that's in fact what happened. But I'm not going to make a surprised Pikachu face about it.

JamesBarney 4y ago

> The first two weeks of career hunting were interesting She's really just started applying to jobs. Also on upwork you need to get in some experience before you can apply for decent paying jobs which means wetting for peanuts on a few small jobs.

mbubb 4y ago

good luck - I really feel for you and know others who have struggled with similar job search frustrations... I lost a position over a year ago and found myself scrambling for a new role as an older person in tech. I thought of a few things that might help. In my case I was trying to move into medical tech software infra role in NYC. I needed to find ways of talking to people in the target field in a low pressure way - I got an invite to https://lunchclub.com/ https://lunchclub.com/ and started having chats with people who worked in tech with a medical focus. I met someone who worked for the CDC and another person who was a nurse who developed a new kind of injection needle, etc I could ask them lots of questions about their work and get comfort in talking about related topics. It helped in my case as it helped me relax - I am not extroverted and I needed to develop fluidity in this way. I am not recommending lunchclub over any other such service - it is the one I used. I would guess there are more option in this space... In my case I found a job in a nonmedical field but the company is a pretty amazing fit and I feel lucky. I feel like the ability to relax in the interview process really helped. Another thing I thought about with your post is - consider not applying for junior positions - the ugly language in the response letter you got is telling you that I think. It requires bravery and squelching the 'impostor syndrome' feelings but you are not a junior employee. You have life experience. Look for employers that seem to signal that they will hire based upon your aptitude rather than "x years in such a position". Another question - are you contacting companies directly? YMMV but I get much better interactions with internal recruiters than head hunters. Try targetting companies even if they don't list exactly the job you are looking for. Very best of luck

gumby 4y ago

I had a similar issue: I unexpectedly became a single father and ended up just doing that full time for seven years (well I did work for about 15 months in the middle but had to give that up). I understand what she’s talking about. There were many differences for me though. For one I had a rich network (she doesn’t mention this) so when, a couple of years ago, my gf urged me to get a job I ended up with a lot of recruiter calls. But TBH they couldn’t grok my bg and I’m not really a big company guy. Also I already had multi-year gaps in my work history so this wasn’t an existential issue for me as it might be for most people. Third, I’m male and the biases in business are different. Not just in business: a father traveling with a kid is offered all sorts of help and accommodation while a woman with kids is largely invisible. I could write a whole book on this! But on the business side I wasn’t asked the kinds of family questions that I hear women are asked. In fact “I had to become a full time parent” is usually received with sympathy rather than as a sign of unseriousness. In the end I did what I usually do which is start a company. My co founder is a widow, and also a former software developer, and she struggled* more like the author of this piece. The idiots who didn’t hire her really missed out! My gf’s path involved an unexpected hack: she took only a few years off when her kids were small but she and her then husband needed the income so she started working for a tiny consulting boutique, initially part time. That let her slowly transition into consulting on her own. * Disclaimer: we have never discussed this directly though: this comes through when we talk about hiring.

fartcannon 4y ago
As a current full time dad, I get the total opposite feeling. My wife's employer bends over backwards to accommodate her financially and with various options to continue her work how and if she pleases with seemingly no end to their support while I was pushed to return to work at 6 weeks. When I left to become full time (my wife returned to her job with a promotion and raise), it wasn't because I wanted to but because my employer doesn't recognize men as parents. So my career stopped in its tracks. Now, years later, applying for the same job as before, even with my old employer, there's no acknowledgement of my effort, no raises, no promotions, and least of all no compassion for my desire to work part time, remotely for the flexibility I need to handle a kid. Worse, they think I took a 'break'. I don't know where you're meeting these accommodating people, I just get stared at like I'm doing something wrong when I travel with my child. God forbid I want to use the change table in the woman's washroom because there's none in the men's. I just change my kid on the grass outside, trying to ignore the looks and comments like, "Moms day off?"

chandmk 4y ago

I am thinking about, All those parents who are forced to work but always wanted to stay back and provide best care for their kids but couldn't do so.. feeling a gut punch. Parents who chose career path and gets the slap in the face moments every time they realized that they could have spent more time with the kids instead of the work. Is it possible to eat the cake and have it too?

acid_dog 4y ago
Possibly with part time work but it can be hard to find, and it's still a compromise.
barefeg 4y ago
The philosophy I try to follow (which I borrowed from someone else) is: sometimes eat the cake, sometimes have it. Meaning if I’m trying to develop my career for a promotion or new job, I’ll adjust the priorities to achieve that, I.e. spend enough time with the kid, sacrifice me-time, sometimes a bit of sleep, etc. And once I achieve it, then “cool off” a bit, meaning spend all my spare time with the kid, finish work at 5, don’t hesitate to take PTO, etc.
treis 4y ago
Yeah but you've got to learn to let things go. I'm temporarily single parenting with a full time job and it doesn't have to be that hard. Like kiddo usually eats microwaved meat & vegetables plus a pasta/rice that I cook twice a week. Is that worse than a cooked from scratch meal? Everyone will say yes, but he's getting the macronutrients and vitamins he needs so what difference does it make? Kind of applies to everything. Some days he doesn't get a bath, the house gets wild, I put a movie on because I'm tired of his shit and so on. But I'm 80-90% of ideal but that's enough for 99%+ of the benefits. I've seen reflections of OP in a lot of parents in my life. They fall into two categories: Type As that direct this sort of extreme level of effort to anything they do. Anxiety/OCD that just can't let that little bit of benefit go combined with satisfying their complusion of controlling everything.
- gus_massa 4y ago

mattgreenrocks 4y ago

To the author: what exactly are you looking for? As in, what type of job, position, desired amount of work per week, etc? There are people here that may be able to help.

fraoulitsa 4y ago
Thank you so much for reading my blog and for asking all these questions. I am very grateful for everyone's interest + support! I do not have specific requirements. I am flexible in terms of hours/week etc. I am looking on entering a career that utilizes my strong Computer Science + Analytical skills and a career that allows me to develop/ use my content creation skills/ passion, networking, events, communication, digital marketing etc. I am not sure what is the right role for me. So far, I look into content creator jobs, digital marketing/sales, business advocacy, and more! I am eager to learn and grow, so I would be incredibly happy with trainee/ internships/ apprenticeships/ return to work programs!!! Again thank you so much for asking me, it's so supportitive!
- mattgreenrocks 4y ago
  You are welcome. Given that this blog is on HN I would think about amending your article with some of these details too. Let people know. There will be some that want to help.
  - bsk7 4y ago
    Exactly. Consider adding a link to your LinkedIn profile or your CV on your Medium post so folks that are looking to help (referrals, hiring managers, recruiters) can review your skills and experience.
- JonChesterfield 4y ago
  Twins is brutal. Software dev seems an easy choice from a computer science background.

jmyeet 4y ago

As for Upwork, this is optimized for people in low cost-of-living countries. I wouldn't take rejection there to be anything. Here's what you do: you lie by omission. By this I mean you imply you went to college during or after any experience you have. Do not specify when you graduated. Don't specify what years you went to college. They can't really ask because that risks age discrimination. Put work experience first then college afterwards. This gives the impression of chronological order without saying that's the case. You can even leave off work experience you don't think is relevant or will help you, particularly for entry-level positions. If you're concerned you're competing with new grads then come across as a new grad with some experience. > However, being a stay-at-home mum came at the cost of my career. To generalize, doing anything for 5-6 years will come at the cost of your career. This isn't specific to raising children.

SMAAART 4y ago

> So far, I got rejected from over twenty job opportunities. That's all? I am in the middle of a job search, I am gainfully employed, I just got a raise and a new bonus structure, and yes I have been "rejected" by well over 100 positions, I have been a finalist in at least 3 or 4 (maybe 5) and 1 offer was rescinded at the last moment for reason unrelated to me/my qualifications. There was a time in my life when I was in a similar situation returning to my professional career after a 5-year sabbatical in a different field and as an entrepreneur, so I know the pain of convincing prospective employers to hire me. We don't like it, but it's a numbers game. Period. 20 is not a meaningful number. 4,000 is.

ComradePhil 4y ago

During the industrial revolution, a lot of propaganda and manipulation techniques were used to get women into wage slavery. While it is a good option to have women who can help out, it is not a necessity.

gus_massa 4y ago
Women worked also before industrial revolution. For example there is a looooong serie about cloth production by the Romans https://acoup.blog/2021/03/05/collections-clothing-how-did-they-make-it-part-i-high-fiber/ https://acoup.blog/2021/03/05/collections-clothing-how-did-t... Most of that work was done by women, and [spoiler alert] he estimates that it was like 8 hours per day. HN discussions https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=Clothing%20acoup.blog&sort=byDate&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
- ComradePhil 4y ago
  Because if they didn't, their kids would starve to death because their husband was either dead or debilitated.

epx 4y ago

Never understood this employer fixation on unbroken careers. A career break may happen to anyone by infinite reasons beyond motherhood. Most people have such career-pausing or career-delaying events (health issues, depression, fatherhood, taking care of an elderly relative), most conceal it, motherhood just happens not to be concealable. And things don't change as fast. Not even in IT. And even if changed, legacy is always there, begging for someone to take care of it instead of going to the newest shiny thing. People out of the market need some warm-up time? Yes, they do. Even machines need to warm-up, dammit. What people should understand, is that the economy turns because there are mothers, fathers, and kids. I would be retired at 35 if didn't marry and hadn't a kid. Once upon a time I was buying a car, the saleswoman was worried about her job because of her pregnancy. I said "I am buying a new car because of the kid. No pregnant women, no car sales." (If I were single or divorced, would have a couple vintage cars.)

mschuster91 4y ago
> What people should understand, is that the economy turns because there are mothers, fathers, and kids. The problem is that capitalism by nature cannot and will not account for this, at least not for publicly traded companies. Capitalism always ends up optimizing for the maximum amount of profit allowed by the law - and simple maths explain what is going on. When you have 10.000 employees, a turnover rate of 5% annually and a person that has been out of a continuous career for a year needs a month more time to get up to speed (to simplify, I assume they operate at 50% of the productivity during that time) than someone who is freshly hired from somewhere else, that is 500 person-months or (assuming 50k/year) ~1 million $ a year. Obviously the larger the company and the larger the salaries, the bigger the cost savings. And I didn't include the loss of productivity in the people who on-board the new hires either. This is why employment and anti-discrimination laws and regulations matter: they level the playing field for everyone.
- AzzieElbab 4y ago
  This type of “optimisations” is not unique to capitalism. In fact, in USSR some positions were simply semi-officially unavailable to young married women due to assumption that if you hire one she’d be away on maternity leave within weeks.

FunnyBadger 4y ago

If you take a different path, you should remember that many such a choice was made and it's usually irreversible. And then you must also use the consequences of that decision to direct your "return" - strictly you can never really return "status quo ante". There's an opportunity cost you've already committed to and taken. You close a door but a window opens - but you NEVER have all the same choices ever again. This strictly happens even without having children just you don't notice the gap caused by opportunity cost as much. And that's perfectly OK. BUT if you think it is a reversible choice, then you are the cause any trouble that results. Instead think outside the box instead because you must. I'm guy who's rarely taken the "safe path" of a career. For example, my father worked for the same company for 40 years; I've never worked in the same job for more than 5 years. And the range of jobs I've had covers a wide range of industries despite always being technical. I've had to do the above "contextual reset" over and over again. It's both a pain in the ass and a joy at the same time. The latter mostly because it means everything must be "new" again; the former because you are forced out of your comfort zone as your prior job defined it. Each time I changed jobs, the change was big enough that I destroyed my chanceso to ever "follow the original career continuity path". I could never "recover" status quo ante by simply going back to any one of those jobs expecting nothing had changed nor expecting I should be caught up with anyone else who didn't take a diversion. You can't go back. But you can find a new direction with new strengths and weaknesses that never would have been possible if you'd never left. It's time to get creative. Honestly it's a WONDERFUL opportunity that this kind of career diversion creates. You need to reset your context in planning next moves. But you've made an irreversible decisions. Having children is one of those. Doing what I have done is much the same. BTW I learned early in my career that resumes/CVs are low effort and low effectiveness. I stopped using them as my primary job search tool except to "seal the deal with HR bureaucracy" after I'm already "hired" back in my 20s (I turn 60 this year). I NEVER "lead" a job search with a resume; I lead with network building and one-on-one campaigns to find the job I WANT at the company I'VE DECIDED TO WORK AT. My current employer was CHOSEN to be an M&A target for my most recent startup. The person to "closed" our acquisition is someone I networked with 15 years before.

mmcnl 4y ago

Why is at always the mothers who choose to be stay-at-home mothers, and very rarely fathers? In my opinion this makes things extra hard for mothers who want to resume their career, because men are used to working with men who don't take breaks from their career to raise their children. Taking time off to raise your children is a personal choice, but it doesn't make any sense that it's almost never the fathers who stay at home. The mother from the article writes: being a stay-at-home mum came at the cost of my career. But why doesn't the father write: not staying home for my children came at the cost of their mother's career. Children have fathers and mothers. Both fathers and mothers should carry this responsibility equally. It's not impossible. As long as raising a child is seen as a responsibility of the mother and less of the father, mothers will always face more difficulties in their career. Disclaimer: ofcourse there are exceptions where there is only one parent who is availabile to carry the responsibility, but in general when the mother stays at home it's not due to external circumstances, but rather a personal preference.

pavel_lishin 4y ago
> Why is at always the mothers who choose to be stay-at-home mothers, and very rarely fathers Because on average, fathers tend to make more than mothers. That's not the only calculation, but it's a big one.
- analog31 4y ago
  That was the case in my family. Similar backgrounds, 2x salary difference.
- mmcnl 4y ago
  Why don't the father and mother both work less? I.e. 4 days (32 hours) instead of 5 days (40 hours). As long as this is not common practice, combined with expensive or inaccessible daycare, women will always face more difficulties in their career. There's no biological justification for this, instead it's entirely the result of cultural conventions and political decisions. I think we should recognize this, because if we don't, gender equality will be out of reach in the near future.

timcavel 4y ago

bradlys 4y ago

We’d have to change societal expectations and the capitalistic behaviors within our global society to really make this problem lessened. (Not happening) I’ve known quite a few women who took a break and got back into work - it wasn’t too bad for them. That said - they live in SV, well educated, etc. I can believe many who take longer breaks could struggle but the author isn’t even a month into their search. (The leetcode studying can be a hassle enough in itself) I’ve often been told that as a man, I’d have to provide for my wife while she takes care of the kids. I’ve often resisted this because I think it’s patriarchal bullshit. People argue logistical points but there are solutions thanks to capitalism. Who is gonna carry the kid? Well, the woman can but that doesn’t mean you’re entitled to years off of work post-preg. I’d give you no longer than the standard time off at FAANG plus a month as compensation for your work of getting to eat whatever and destroy your body (I’m not a fan - neither would you if you saw me permanently gain 40lbs of fat). Alternatively - we pay for a surrogate. I’ll pay the cost if it means you have to play corporate war games. $100k for a few years off and you don’t lose your great body and have postpartum who the fuck knows? Sounds extremely cheap and advantageous to me! Yes, please! What about breast milk?! Women donate that and I can buy it. Again - cheap in the scheme of things. At this point - it devolves. It’s clear it’s about want and not need. It’s just annoying people rarely take this stance because it’s shown to be a selfish choice and shown as one that is actually more enjoyable than corporate war games. Yes, it turns out $500k+/yr jobs are often very stressful, competitive, and full of hell. No wonder you want to escape - but so do I.