3 ms·

Every time the topic of cheating comes up on HN, I become increasingly disheartened by the amount of people chiming in who think it's not only alright to cheat

Every time the topic of cheating comes up on HN, I become increasingly disheartened by the amount of people chiming in who think it's not only alright to cheat but also laudable to do so. Ethics are foundational to engineering. Jettisoning them is a sign of a discipline in decline.

echelon 4y ago
Is it cheating if the person asks his recently hired friend what the interviews were like and he just happens to get the same question? This is a case of random chance and Microsoft not having a wide enough of an interviewer pool. It didn't seem willful, malicious, or pre-planned on the part of the candidate. How would you respond in the moment? They admitted they were shocked to see the question. They were probably expending so much mental effort to maintain composure that the thought never crossed their mind on how to appropriately handle the scenario. High stakes and nerves. That's not at all what they prepared for.
- ethanwillis 4y ago
  I can almost guarantee you the "friend" was not supposed to disclose what the problem was that was asked of him. It's not a problem of the pool. It's a problem of the ethics of both his friend, and him.
zwkrt 4y ago
I desperately wish there were some kind of equivalent to the Bar Association for software. A higher power that can punish blatant ethical violations in the face of the relentless greed of an engineer's boss, company, or industry. I think of the Volkswagen emissions snafu and how that might have been handled differently if the engineers had something with teeth to use to push back against unethical and illegal practices. On the other hand, I feel that it would be a moot point. 'Ethics violations' require a code of ethics and an intent to violate them. I was recently at a meeting where an engineer was describing how they used an A/B test to prove that creating an extra modal dialogue in the account deletion process reduced the number of people who deleted their account. They described the entire process as being good for the user, who might be 'confused' about 'accidentally' deleting their account and how they would be more 'empowered' to 'remain loyal'. I realized I was listening to someone describe a dark pattern, but this person was convinced that dark was light.
- coupdejarnac 4y ago
  The association you're probably looking for is the board of professional engineers that many here want nothing to do with.
- Karsteski 4y ago
  You want an old boy's club that gatekeeps a profession? I'm extremely glad we don't have that in software, actually.
- lapcat 4y ago
  > I desperately wish there were some kind of equivalent to the Bar Association for software. There are many bar associations, not just one. The American Bar Association is a voluntary organization with no punishment power. Some US states have mandatory bar associations, other states don't. Whenever someone suggests a professional organization governing software, it's usually overlooked that all such organizations are only regional. Ultimately, the power derives from local governments.
altdataseller 4y ago
Hate the game, not the player
- ethanwillis 4y ago
  I hate this quote, the game, AND the player.
inferiorhuman 4y ago
I'm not massively bothered by the "cheating" because I think that it highlights flaws with the evaluation in the first place.
akudha 4y ago
Cheating is bad - this is an overly broad and generalized position, isn't it? Lets say the blogger had seen that n+1 question online somewhere or in a book (instead of hearing from his friend), before the interview. Is he obligated to inform the interviewer in this case too? There are many people who get stressed and can't really write good code in an interview setting, but are perfectly capable of writing great software otherwise. Lying in a software job interview (especially when you know you can do the job well, if hired) is totally different from lying in an emissions test like Volkswagon did. As with most things in life, ethics isn't black or white, it is much more nuanced and complex. This is not to say that one should be unethical at every chance, just that reducing a hugely complex topic like ethics to binary is naive.
- yesenadam 4y ago
  I'd like to agree with the statement Cheating is bad. I don't think that's overly broad and generalized, or not nuanced and complex enough, or naive. Like the GP, I'm amazed at the number of people on here[0] who somehow seem to think cheating is fine. In real life I've never heard anyone defending cheating as ever a good thing, I guess. When I hear the word "cheating", it..just sounds like an obviously bad thing. Seems not everyone has that response?! I would have thought it's basic to human decency. [0] Last time was a week ago, when I and others responded to this comment, which seems to be saying, cheating is ok if the reward is big enough: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31546436 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31546436
  - akudha 4y ago
    I am not saying cheating is fine, all I am saying is that it is not as rigid as rules in mathematics. If we are just talking in strict theoretical sense, sure, all cheating is bad. But life doesn't work that way. This is why we have courts and judges and lawsuits. My guess is this (based on nothing but personal opinion) - most people would say cheating is bad, but the same people wouldn't be surprised at rampant cheating that happens around them. They may themselves even cheat, if they get a chance. Whether we like it or not, cheating happens all over, so people are just used to it.
pbhjpbhj 4y ago
Cheating is foundational to the nepotistic foundational structure of Western Capitalism, so maybe not surprising to find it lauded here?

echelon 4y ago

Is it cheating if the person asks his recently hired friend what the interviews were like and he just happens to get the same question? This is a case of random chance and Microsoft not having a wide enough of an interviewer pool. It didn't seem willful, malicious, or pre-planned on the part of the candidate. How would you respond in the moment? They admitted they were shocked to see the question. They were probably expending so much mental effort to maintain composure that the thought never crossed their mind on how to appropriately handle the scenario. High stakes and nerves. That's not at all what they prepared for.

ethanwillis 4y ago
I can almost guarantee you the "friend" was not supposed to disclose what the problem was that was asked of him. It's not a problem of the pool. It's a problem of the ethics of both his friend, and him.

zwkrt 4y ago

I desperately wish there were some kind of equivalent to the Bar Association for software. A higher power that can punish blatant ethical violations in the face of the relentless greed of an engineer's boss, company, or industry. I think of the Volkswagen emissions snafu and how that might have been handled differently if the engineers had something with teeth to use to push back against unethical and illegal practices. On the other hand, I feel that it would be a moot point. 'Ethics violations' require a code of ethics and an intent to violate them. I was recently at a meeting where an engineer was describing how they used an A/B test to prove that creating an extra modal dialogue in the account deletion process reduced the number of people who deleted their account. They described the entire process as being good for the user, who might be 'confused' about 'accidentally' deleting their account and how they would be more 'empowered' to 'remain loyal'. I realized I was listening to someone describe a dark pattern, but this person was convinced that dark was light.

coupdejarnac 4y ago
The association you're probably looking for is the board of professional engineers that many here want nothing to do with.
Karsteski 4y ago
You want an old boy's club that gatekeeps a profession? I'm extremely glad we don't have that in software, actually.
lapcat 4y ago
> I desperately wish there were some kind of equivalent to the Bar Association for software. There are many bar associations, not just one. The American Bar Association is a voluntary organization with no punishment power. Some US states have mandatory bar associations, other states don't. Whenever someone suggests a professional organization governing software, it's usually overlooked that all such organizations are only regional. Ultimately, the power derives from local governments.

altdataseller 4y ago

Hate the game, not the player

ethanwillis 4y ago
I hate this quote, the game, AND the player.

inferiorhuman 4y ago

I'm not massively bothered by the "cheating" because I think that it highlights flaws with the evaluation in the first place.

akudha 4y ago

Cheating is bad - this is an overly broad and generalized position, isn't it? Lets say the blogger had seen that n+1 question online somewhere or in a book (instead of hearing from his friend), before the interview. Is he obligated to inform the interviewer in this case too? There are many people who get stressed and can't really write good code in an interview setting, but are perfectly capable of writing great software otherwise. Lying in a software job interview (especially when you know you can do the job well, if hired) is totally different from lying in an emissions test like Volkswagon did. As with most things in life, ethics isn't black or white, it is much more nuanced and complex. This is not to say that one should be unethical at every chance, just that reducing a hugely complex topic like ethics to binary is naive.

yesenadam 4y ago
I'd like to agree with the statement Cheating is bad. I don't think that's overly broad and generalized, or not nuanced and complex enough, or naive. Like the GP, I'm amazed at the number of people on here[0] who somehow seem to think cheating is fine. In real life I've never heard anyone defending cheating as ever a good thing, I guess. When I hear the word "cheating", it..just sounds like an obviously bad thing. Seems not everyone has that response?! I would have thought it's basic to human decency. [0] Last time was a week ago, when I and others responded to this comment, which seems to be saying, cheating is ok if the reward is big enough: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31546436 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31546436
- akudha 4y ago
  I am not saying cheating is fine, all I am saying is that it is not as rigid as rules in mathematics. If we are just talking in strict theoretical sense, sure, all cheating is bad. But life doesn't work that way. This is why we have courts and judges and lawsuits. My guess is this (based on nothing but personal opinion) - most people would say cheating is bad, but the same people wouldn't be surprised at rampant cheating that happens around them. They may themselves even cheat, if they get a chance. Whether we like it or not, cheating happens all over, so people are just used to it.

pbhjpbhj 4y ago

Cheating is foundational to the nepotistic foundational structure of Western Capitalism, so maybe not surprising to find it lauded here?