4 ms·

The thing is - is it necessary to have the best gear to enjoy the game? As a different example - I'm sure it would cost tens of thousands of dollars to max out

The thing is - is it necessary to have the best gear to enjoy the game? As a different example - I'm sure it would cost tens of thousands of dollars to max out your characters and gear in Genshin Impact, but I've played very enjoyable 100h+ and it's perfectly fine even if you don't have the max ascended characters and gear, I have a feeling those are there basically for the wales to spend money on but aren't necessary for gameplay in any way(well maybe for some crazy hardcore end game content, but as always, that seems to be something 0.0001% of the playerbase enjoys). My point is - the game can still be enjoyable and worth playing even if you can't get the endgame gear. Is that the case here? I don't know.

aeturnum 4y ago
I feel the same way. I don't have too many compunctions about games whose revenue models gate the top 5% of possible progress. If Diablo 3 had a feature where you need to pay money to unlock the last 10% of each primal ancient item (so F2P would only get 90% perfect rolls), I don't think my game play experience would change in the least and I've put a lot of hours into that game. Games should not be about wringing money out of people - but games need to get revenue somewhere. Asking everyone to pay before playing at all is not a clearly better (or more moral) system.
ValentinPearce 4y ago
A big part of Diablo (or at least of Diablo 3) once the story is finished is to go as far as possible in the post game features. Most people I know who have played Diablo would tell me their rift tier, paragon level (might be a different term in English but they play in french so that's the term I know). So for new players, it might not be that big of a deal, but for players wanting to play more Diablo the game is telling them to cough up as much as they can
- gambiting 4y ago
  Well yes, the question is, when is a hardcore player going to run into this limit? After 20 hours? 50? 200? The further it is along the line, the fewer people it's going to affect. If you can have a great experience for the first 100 hours, that's still pretty good in my book.
nickjj 4y ago
> The thing is - is it necessary to have the best gear to enjoy the game? Technically no but Diablo and ARPGs in general are all about items and for a very large class of players who enjoy this genre it's all about min / maxing your character, or at the very least getting improved items / skills / kill speed as you progress. Tying items into a cash shop in the way it's been done here feels really dirty, like it's going against the entire ethos of the genre. This is partly why Path of Exile has been wildly successful for almost 10 years (it's another ARPG). Their cash shop is focused on cosmetics and quality of life improvements. You can't just buy items or things that make your character more powerful. The only reason I bring up PoE is to demonstrate it's possible to create a long running profitable ARPG with cosmetic cash shop items in a free to play game. I do know things like stash tabs are borderline and debatably a kind of essential item but I'm ok with that, you can get very far without thinking about them and you purchase them once and you're good to go for years. It was also like $15 from what I remember, it's been a bunch of years since I played so I forgot. I do know I spent around $40-50 total on that game on various quality of life things and it felt like money well spent. I was happy to support GGG. In fact, I ran into a billing situation once and they gave me free coins to compensate a customer support pain point (which I didn't ask for) but I didn't want their work to go unpaid so I ended up purchasing more to match what they gave me. Not nickel and diming your customers and not preying on weakness goes a long ways for building up a loyal fanbase. I haven't played PoE in years but I feel like they won me over as a customer for life. I didn't think it was possible to ruin the Diablo franchise more than the original release of Diablo III but I think Diablo Immortal may have won in that department.
- lcw 4y ago
  This take seems off to me specifically in you last paragraph. Whether it is MTX in the form of cosmetics or p2w mechanics both are predatory to people with addictions to games and kids. I feel like people are upset about p2w mechanics in the game but at the same time say "I'm fine with cosmetic mtx" which makes the whole argument read to me as you are upset that people want to use money to win and that means they shouldn't so you will virtue signal like I care about people spending $10k. If you as an individual don't like p2w that's fine. I get that, but let's stop acting like we care about the virtues of it when kids are spending $1k on worthless Marvel skins in Fortnite or Roblox and there is little uproar about it... We just don't like going into a game where a rich person can beat us, which is understandably frustrating. The other virtue outrageous is just disingenuous imho.
kybernetyk 4y ago
> The thing is - is it necessary to have the best gear to enjoy the game? Yes, at least in those types of games. Gear improvement is a big part of the game progression. Before microtransactions that just meant spending ungodly amounts of time in those games. Nowadays it means bankrupting yourself.
- gambiting 4y ago
  But it still doesn't answer my question - obviously you have gear progression without spending any money, just like there is in Genshin Impact. So at what point do you reach a point where you literally can't enjoy the game any more without spending any money? Because if it's 100h+ like for me in Genshin, then I don't think there's any problem for 99.999% of players. Yes the option to spend money and get crazy high gear is there for the wales, but is the game itself enjoyable even if you don't do this? Because I know as a fact that Genshin is. Would love to know if the same applies to Diablo.
  - gryn 4y ago
    if doing the same exact rift over and over for weeks in order to unfreeze your game progress is something you find enjoyable then yes. but realistically I don't think there exist that much people who would enjoy this. oh and every 15 min or so you're spammed with a notification telling you take this one is lifetime opportunity to help if only for give them your credit card! if you don't hurry you'll miss out on this offer forever. I've played less than an hour of genshin so I can't compare it since I don't know much about it. but as someone who played other games where you might need to farm for better stuff, this is nothing like that.
    - matwood 4y ago
      > if doing the same exact rift over and over for weeks in order to unfreeze your game progress is something you find enjoyable then yes. but realistically I don't think there exist that much people who would enjoy this. It's been awhile since I played D3, but hasn't this been the model for years?
gryn 4y ago
in this game ? absolutely game progress is limited by it. can't complete a quest if your combat rating is not high enough and the only way to improve it is to upgrade your items. how do you upgrade your items ? by upgrading their rank and the rank of the gems they have attached to them. so how do you do that ? well either directly pay money, or pay money for for stuff needed to to challenge elder rift so that you can drop the resources necessary. or if you really don't want to do that challenge the rift without the resources and have a really shitty drop rate of alternative resources that can be converted into runes that can be used to make said gems. that would mean that you needs months of repetitive farming. oh an the first fixes of the paid drug is handed to you for free so that you get a taste of how great of a drug it is. then once you're dry of it they'll keep giving it you at ever decreasing doses to keep you crazed for you fix until you crack and give in. my experiences with game is that it was enjoyable until lvl 35 which you hit in 2 days of playing and just hit an impenetrable wall at lvl 42 where it meant full time grinding or paying in order for the story to progress at an acceptable pace. I'll just remove it from my phone or maybe play with reverse engineering it to see how hard it is to make a bot. (on the first day there was already one spamming chat)
havblue 4y ago
I gave up on plants versus zombies 2 quickly when it became obvious the game was just prompting me to spend money at every turn. Granted, some people say this was mitigated eventually. I think games where you have an option to pay for dlc at the start screen are fine. It's being constantly pressured that I consider to be a breach of trust.
- grayfaced 4y ago
  Every game menu feels like a casino now. Even the ones with no microtransactions put the trapping of P2W in. Cluttered flashy menus. When you get a drop instead of just giving you the item, they give you a chest with an unskippable flashy animation when you open it. P2W Casino is a horrible art-style, I don't know why conventional games are copying it. I've refunded games on steam after just seeing the menu.
  - havblue 4y ago
    I think we just aren't the intended customer for a lot of games. I mean, the casino style is used because it works for casinos as well. I'd rather just drink while watching sports in the comfortable leather chairs than playing slots and waiting forever for a drink on the casino floor, personally. Which ones did you return? I think there are a decent number of single a developer games out there that have good progression systems. Hades, Dicey Dungeons, Golf Story...
- JonathanFly 4y ago
  >I gave up on plants versus zombies 2 quickly when it became obvious the game was just prompting me to spend money at every turn. Granted, some people say this was mitigated eventually. The funny thing is the unmitigated, most pay2win version of Plants Versus Zombies 2 - the game at launch - was accidentally one of the most amazing and intense gaming experiences for people who never spent anything. For people who just really enjoyed a vastly more challenging version of PvZ. I loved the first game but it was never a challenge, it was rare to fail a level more than once. But the levels in the second were passable if you spent zero premium currency (even not spending any of premium currency they gave you for free for logging in) - they were just very very challenging. Passing every single one required novel strategies and slowly revising, eking out a few more tiny edges each time you try, combined with absolute precision in execution, until somehow the level was passable. I'm not actually sure every single level was passable by not even spending the currency they gave you for free, I never quite finished it, but I got through most of them! When I logged in to finish the remaining levels later, they had made them all way easier in an effort to respond to p2w criticism so I never had a chance.
matwood 4y ago
I'm wondering the same. D3 was seasonal grinds, and this new game seems to capture the same season grind. So far at least, it looks like paying lessens the grind, but rift grinding is what Diablo has been about for years.
pastacacioepepe 4y ago
> The thing is - is it necessary to have the best gear to enjoy the game? It maybe not, the same way it's not necessary to own a yacht IRL to enjoy life, but why should we bring inequality in games as well? Multiplayer games are a meritocratic dream that is probably unattainable IRL, as only the most skilled (cheaters aside) get to the top of the scoreboard. It kills my fun to know that even this small haven of meritocracy is changing to become like the real world: the wealthy have better opportunities than I do, independently from skills or talent.
luckluckgoosed 4y ago
I've played about 12 hours of Diablo Immortal. I haven't spent any money, but also haven't really looked into why I would want to do it. The game is already pretty easy, and I feel like spending for better gear would make it almost non-sense, where I can just stand around while my minions kill the enemies. If they wanted to encourage micro-transactions, they should have made it a lot more challenging, so that you'd actually you know, die sometimes.
NaturalPhallacy 4y ago
If you're interested in PvP, you must pay in order to be competitive. Whales will simply have 50% more health and damage than you. So if PvP is your jam, you're shit out of luck if you don't also want to pay a ton of money to succeed at it. The whole feature is effectively walled off to f2pers.

aeturnum 4y ago

I feel the same way. I don't have too many compunctions about games whose revenue models gate the top 5% of possible progress. If Diablo 3 had a feature where you need to pay money to unlock the last 10% of each primal ancient item (so F2P would only get 90% perfect rolls), I don't think my game play experience would change in the least and I've put a lot of hours into that game. Games should not be about wringing money out of people - but games need to get revenue somewhere. Asking everyone to pay before playing at all is not a clearly better (or more moral) system.

ValentinPearce 4y ago

A big part of Diablo (or at least of Diablo 3) once the story is finished is to go as far as possible in the post game features. Most people I know who have played Diablo would tell me their rift tier, paragon level (might be a different term in English but they play in french so that's the term I know). So for new players, it might not be that big of a deal, but for players wanting to play more Diablo the game is telling them to cough up as much as they can

gambiting 4y ago
Well yes, the question is, when is a hardcore player going to run into this limit? After 20 hours? 50? 200? The further it is along the line, the fewer people it's going to affect. If you can have a great experience for the first 100 hours, that's still pretty good in my book.

nickjj 4y ago

> The thing is - is it necessary to have the best gear to enjoy the game? Technically no but Diablo and ARPGs in general are all about items and for a very large class of players who enjoy this genre it's all about min / maxing your character, or at the very least getting improved items / skills / kill speed as you progress. Tying items into a cash shop in the way it's been done here feels really dirty, like it's going against the entire ethos of the genre. This is partly why Path of Exile has been wildly successful for almost 10 years (it's another ARPG). Their cash shop is focused on cosmetics and quality of life improvements. You can't just buy items or things that make your character more powerful. The only reason I bring up PoE is to demonstrate it's possible to create a long running profitable ARPG with cosmetic cash shop items in a free to play game. I do know things like stash tabs are borderline and debatably a kind of essential item but I'm ok with that, you can get very far without thinking about them and you purchase them once and you're good to go for years. It was also like $15 from what I remember, it's been a bunch of years since I played so I forgot. I do know I spent around $40-50 total on that game on various quality of life things and it felt like money well spent. I was happy to support GGG. In fact, I ran into a billing situation once and they gave me free coins to compensate a customer support pain point (which I didn't ask for) but I didn't want their work to go unpaid so I ended up purchasing more to match what they gave me. Not nickel and diming your customers and not preying on weakness goes a long ways for building up a loyal fanbase. I haven't played PoE in years but I feel like they won me over as a customer for life. I didn't think it was possible to ruin the Diablo franchise more than the original release of Diablo III but I think Diablo Immortal may have won in that department.

lcw 4y ago
This take seems off to me specifically in you last paragraph. Whether it is MTX in the form of cosmetics or p2w mechanics both are predatory to people with addictions to games and kids. I feel like people are upset about p2w mechanics in the game but at the same time say "I'm fine with cosmetic mtx" which makes the whole argument read to me as you are upset that people want to use money to win and that means they shouldn't so you will virtue signal like I care about people spending $10k. If you as an individual don't like p2w that's fine. I get that, but let's stop acting like we care about the virtues of it when kids are spending $1k on worthless Marvel skins in Fortnite or Roblox and there is little uproar about it... We just don't like going into a game where a rich person can beat us, which is understandably frustrating. The other virtue outrageous is just disingenuous imho.

kybernetyk 4y ago

> The thing is - is it necessary to have the best gear to enjoy the game? Yes, at least in those types of games. Gear improvement is a big part of the game progression. Before microtransactions that just meant spending ungodly amounts of time in those games. Nowadays it means bankrupting yourself.

gambiting 4y ago
But it still doesn't answer my question - obviously you have gear progression without spending any money, just like there is in Genshin Impact. So at what point do you reach a point where you literally can't enjoy the game any more without spending any money? Because if it's 100h+ like for me in Genshin, then I don't think there's any problem for 99.999% of players. Yes the option to spend money and get crazy high gear is there for the wales, but is the game itself enjoyable even if you don't do this? Because I know as a fact that Genshin is. Would love to know if the same applies to Diablo.
- gryn 4y ago
  if doing the same exact rift over and over for weeks in order to unfreeze your game progress is something you find enjoyable then yes. but realistically I don't think there exist that much people who would enjoy this. oh and every 15 min or so you're spammed with a notification telling you take this one is lifetime opportunity to help if only for give them your credit card! if you don't hurry you'll miss out on this offer forever. I've played less than an hour of genshin so I can't compare it since I don't know much about it. but as someone who played other games where you might need to farm for better stuff, this is nothing like that.
  - matwood 4y ago
    > if doing the same exact rift over and over for weeks in order to unfreeze your game progress is something you find enjoyable then yes. but realistically I don't think there exist that much people who would enjoy this. It's been awhile since I played D3, but hasn't this been the model for years?

gryn 4y ago

in this game ? absolutely game progress is limited by it. can't complete a quest if your combat rating is not high enough and the only way to improve it is to upgrade your items. how do you upgrade your items ? by upgrading their rank and the rank of the gems they have attached to them. so how do you do that ? well either directly pay money, or pay money for for stuff needed to to challenge elder rift so that you can drop the resources necessary. or if you really don't want to do that challenge the rift without the resources and have a really shitty drop rate of alternative resources that can be converted into runes that can be used to make said gems. that would mean that you needs months of repetitive farming. oh an the first fixes of the paid drug is handed to you for free so that you get a taste of how great of a drug it is. then once you're dry of it they'll keep giving it you at ever decreasing doses to keep you crazed for you fix until you crack and give in. my experiences with game is that it was enjoyable until lvl 35 which you hit in 2 days of playing and just hit an impenetrable wall at lvl 42 where it meant full time grinding or paying in order for the story to progress at an acceptable pace. I'll just remove it from my phone or maybe play with reverse engineering it to see how hard it is to make a bot. (on the first day there was already one spamming chat)

havblue 4y ago

I gave up on plants versus zombies 2 quickly when it became obvious the game was just prompting me to spend money at every turn. Granted, some people say this was mitigated eventually. I think games where you have an option to pay for dlc at the start screen are fine. It's being constantly pressured that I consider to be a breach of trust.

grayfaced 4y ago
Every game menu feels like a casino now. Even the ones with no microtransactions put the trapping of P2W in. Cluttered flashy menus. When you get a drop instead of just giving you the item, they give you a chest with an unskippable flashy animation when you open it. P2W Casino is a horrible art-style, I don't know why conventional games are copying it. I've refunded games on steam after just seeing the menu.
- havblue 4y ago
  I think we just aren't the intended customer for a lot of games. I mean, the casino style is used because it works for casinos as well. I'd rather just drink while watching sports in the comfortable leather chairs than playing slots and waiting forever for a drink on the casino floor, personally. Which ones did you return? I think there are a decent number of single a developer games out there that have good progression systems. Hades, Dicey Dungeons, Golf Story...
JonathanFly 4y ago
>I gave up on plants versus zombies 2 quickly when it became obvious the game was just prompting me to spend money at every turn. Granted, some people say this was mitigated eventually. The funny thing is the unmitigated, most pay2win version of Plants Versus Zombies 2 - the game at launch - was accidentally one of the most amazing and intense gaming experiences for people who never spent anything. For people who just really enjoyed a vastly more challenging version of PvZ. I loved the first game but it was never a challenge, it was rare to fail a level more than once. But the levels in the second were passable if you spent zero premium currency (even not spending any of premium currency they gave you for free for logging in) - they were just very very challenging. Passing every single one required novel strategies and slowly revising, eking out a few more tiny edges each time you try, combined with absolute precision in execution, until somehow the level was passable. I'm not actually sure every single level was passable by not even spending the currency they gave you for free, I never quite finished it, but I got through most of them! When I logged in to finish the remaining levels later, they had made them all way easier in an effort to respond to p2w criticism so I never had a chance.

matwood 4y ago

I'm wondering the same. D3 was seasonal grinds, and this new game seems to capture the same season grind. So far at least, it looks like paying lessens the grind, but rift grinding is what Diablo has been about for years.

pastacacioepepe 4y ago

> The thing is - is it necessary to have the best gear to enjoy the game? It maybe not, the same way it's not necessary to own a yacht IRL to enjoy life, but why should we bring inequality in games as well? Multiplayer games are a meritocratic dream that is probably unattainable IRL, as only the most skilled (cheaters aside) get to the top of the scoreboard. It kills my fun to know that even this small haven of meritocracy is changing to become like the real world: the wealthy have better opportunities than I do, independently from skills or talent.

luckluckgoosed 4y ago

I've played about 12 hours of Diablo Immortal. I haven't spent any money, but also haven't really looked into why I would want to do it. The game is already pretty easy, and I feel like spending for better gear would make it almost non-sense, where I can just stand around while my minions kill the enemies. If they wanted to encourage micro-transactions, they should have made it a lot more challenging, so that you'd actually you know, die sometimes.

NaturalPhallacy 4y ago

If you're interested in PvP, you must pay in order to be competitive. Whales will simply have 50% more health and damage than you. So if PvP is your jam, you're shit out of luck if you don't also want to pay a ton of money to succeed at it. The whole feature is effectively walled off to f2pers.