6 ms·

Lootbox games: I don't understand why these kind of games are not getting banned or heavily restricted. There is absolutely not a single positive thing about th

Lootbox games: I don't understand why these kind of games are not getting banned or heavily restricted. There is absolutely not a single positive thing about these games. Moral doesn't matter.

paol 4y ago
They are: https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/1/23149771/diablo-immortal-loot-boxes-belgium-the-netherlands-gambling https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/1/23149771/diablo-immortal-l... More countries need to adopt similar laws.
MrOxiMoron 4y ago
it won't be available in the Netherlands or Belgium, because we have laws against them, now they just don't release the games here. I hope more of the EU will join us with similar laws so it will become impactful.
pototo666 4y ago
Not to defend lootbox game. But some positive thing: it makes some people's life less boring. Lootbox doesn't make games interesting. But lootbox generates money to hire good designer, programmer to create interesting games, at least for some players.
- stingraycharles 4y ago
  A more cynical perspective is that the designer and programmer are tasked with using all tricks possible to coerce their players to pay money. While the players spend a lot of time and money on it, their life is only less boring akin to an addict’s life being less boring when they’re on a high.
- pawelmurias 4y ago
  Actually it's the opposite, the mobiles games are less fun for playing because they are optimized for addiction rather than fun.
  - pototo666 4y ago
    Sometimes it is difficult to differentiate addiction and fun. I am addicted to Dota2. Good game. I spent little money on it. I play for more than 3000 hours. I wish I didn't.
taurath 4y ago
Investors love the monetization model and they get to decide what is just right and moral in our system of economics. The “fiduciary duty” to investors means sociopathy is the only way that businesses are allowed to conduct themselves. If you can make money, you MUST make it. Someday I hope we find some way as a society to give value to other things. Its not really working out.
- michaelmrose 4y ago
  > sociopathy is the only way that businesses are allowed to conduct themselves. It would be great if we could stop spreading this misunderstanding. Fiduciary duty is a duty not to deliberately destroy shareholder value. Basically you can't set it on fire or loot it. It is not and has never been a duty to do absolutely anything anyone can possibly conceive of that will enrich the shareholders. Leaders are free morally and legally free to consider intangible factors that bear on the long term health and viability of the company and indeed do so every day.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - kybernetyk 4y ago
    > It is not and has never been a duty to do absolutely anything anyone can possibly conceive of that will enrich the shareholders. This. Otherwise Apple and Disney would be forced to sell porn. But they don't because of their moral (one could argue prude) stance which makes less money for the investor.
    - KingMachiavelli 4y ago
      Both companies target demographics that would oppose that. Also the PR storm of such a reversal would significantly damage their stock prices. More importantly, stockholders suing either company to force them to reverse the policy would be an even bigger story. It's not a fiduciary responsibility to make as much money as possible, it's to maximize value for shareholders which means stock price rivals revenue.
bsnal 4y ago
It’s your choice whether to install them or not. Let’s stop treating people like children please.
- stavros 4y ago
  If this were true, people wouldn't literally die of addiction. Addicts aren't reasonable adults, addiction is a condition.
- x3ro 4y ago
  You mean like... all the actual... children who play these games? Should we stop treating those like children too?
  - bsnal 4y ago
    Children have parents who know what their children are doing online. In any case, children don’t have access to credit cards or any other means to pay for in-game items.
    - dymax78 4y ago
      There are plenty of children whose online behavior is oblivious to their parents, or they circumvent restrictions their parents placed.
      - bsnal 4y ago
        That seems like a problem with those parents, not blizzard or the government.
        fizzynut 4y ago
        It's like selling cigarettes to children using manipulative marketing specifically aimed at children like cute characters on the box and blaming the parents.
    - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
snikeris 4y ago
If you walk around a low income area in the US, you’ll find loot boxes littered on the ground. We call them scratch off tickets. Getting the okay from the government to prey on your fellow citizens has precedent here.
jimbob45 4y ago
It seems like the online discourse stalled out at, “Well Pokémon cards are legal, aren’t lootboxes basically the same thing?”. I have my own opinion on that but I never saw a consensus rebuttal form against that point.
- InvOfSmallC 4y ago
  Yes and no, they’re collectibles and there is a market. So not exactly the same but I see the point in a way.
- mywaifuismeta 4y ago
  Add to that lotteries, or pretty much anything that has random outcomes. Even if you don't gamble with cash, but something like Pokemon cards or digital items, there will always be secondary markets that let you cash out. If you want to ban these things, you'd have to ban all randomness.
paradite 4y ago
China regulates lootbox games. Here's a Cambridge research article on the topic: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/behavioural-public-policy/article/gaming-the-system-suboptimal-compliance-with-loot-box-probability-disclosure-regulations-in-china/B2642E2F8B7164236E5477D58D2B26DE https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/behavioural-public-p...
matwood 4y ago
You mean pay for loot box games? I ask because Diablo is one of the original grind for random drop games. At its core, Diablo has always been a gambling game even before micro transactions.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
  Yes, paying out of game currency for in game rng loot. It has always had the gambling element though. While doing Meph runs I came to the conclusion that I wasn't playing because I was having fun, I was playing for the thrill of the loot drop rng.
- 2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
  Diablo was still enjoyable without the best stuff. And they never forced you to pay for anything to progress. Diablo III made it even easier to get all the set gear (I have several sets on Switch and I only play casually) and it became about designing builds around gear that could survive the highest torment difficulties. Other games like Borderlands with similar item systems also don't rely on the player getting the absolute best gear to progress either. These pay-to-play games on the other hand, force you to hand over cash to progress and the fun often stops if you try to play for free.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

Lootbox games: I don't understand why these kind of games are not getting banned or heavily restricted. There is absolutely not a single positive thing about these games. Moral doesn't matter.

paol 4y ago

They are: https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/1/23149771/diablo-immortal-loot-boxes-belgium-the-netherlands-gambling https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/1/23149771/diablo-immortal-l... More countries need to adopt similar laws.

MrOxiMoron 4y ago

it won't be available in the Netherlands or Belgium, because we have laws against them, now they just don't release the games here. I hope more of the EU will join us with similar laws so it will become impactful.

pototo666 4y ago

Not to defend lootbox game. But some positive thing: it makes some people's life less boring. Lootbox doesn't make games interesting. But lootbox generates money to hire good designer, programmer to create interesting games, at least for some players.

stingraycharles 4y ago
A more cynical perspective is that the designer and programmer are tasked with using all tricks possible to coerce their players to pay money. While the players spend a lot of time and money on it, their life is only less boring akin to an addict’s life being less boring when they’re on a high.
pawelmurias 4y ago
Actually it's the opposite, the mobiles games are less fun for playing because they are optimized for addiction rather than fun.
- pototo666 4y ago
  Sometimes it is difficult to differentiate addiction and fun. I am addicted to Dota2. Good game. I spent little money on it. I play for more than 3000 hours. I wish I didn't.

taurath 4y ago

Investors love the monetization model and they get to decide what is just right and moral in our system of economics. The “fiduciary duty” to investors means sociopathy is the only way that businesses are allowed to conduct themselves. If you can make money, you MUST make it. Someday I hope we find some way as a society to give value to other things. Its not really working out.

michaelmrose 4y ago
> sociopathy is the only way that businesses are allowed to conduct themselves. It would be great if we could stop spreading this misunderstanding. Fiduciary duty is a duty not to deliberately destroy shareholder value. Basically you can't set it on fire or loot it. It is not and has never been a duty to do absolutely anything anyone can possibly conceive of that will enrich the shareholders. Leaders are free morally and legally free to consider intangible factors that bear on the long term health and viability of the company and indeed do so every day.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- kybernetyk 4y ago
  > It is not and has never been a duty to do absolutely anything anyone can possibly conceive of that will enrich the shareholders. This. Otherwise Apple and Disney would be forced to sell porn. But they don't because of their moral (one could argue prude) stance which makes less money for the investor.
  - KingMachiavelli 4y ago
    Both companies target demographics that would oppose that. Also the PR storm of such a reversal would significantly damage their stock prices. More importantly, stockholders suing either company to force them to reverse the policy would be an even bigger story. It's not a fiduciary responsibility to make as much money as possible, it's to maximize value for shareholders which means stock price rivals revenue.

bsnal 4y ago

It’s your choice whether to install them or not. Let’s stop treating people like children please.

stavros 4y ago
If this were true, people wouldn't literally die of addiction. Addicts aren't reasonable adults, addiction is a condition.
x3ro 4y ago
You mean like... all the actual... children who play these games? Should we stop treating those like children too?
- bsnal 4y ago
  Children have parents who know what their children are doing online. In any case, children don’t have access to credit cards or any other means to pay for in-game items.
  - dymax78 4y ago
    There are plenty of children whose online behavior is oblivious to their parents, or they circumvent restrictions their parents placed.
    - bsnal 4y ago
      That seems like a problem with those parents, not blizzard or the government.
      - fizzynut 4y ago
        It's like selling cigarettes to children using manipulative marketing specifically aimed at children like cute characters on the box and blaming the parents.
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago

snikeris 4y ago

If you walk around a low income area in the US, you’ll find loot boxes littered on the ground. We call them scratch off tickets. Getting the okay from the government to prey on your fellow citizens has precedent here.

jimbob45 4y ago

It seems like the online discourse stalled out at, “Well Pokémon cards are legal, aren’t lootboxes basically the same thing?”. I have my own opinion on that but I never saw a consensus rebuttal form against that point.

InvOfSmallC 4y ago
Yes and no, they’re collectibles and there is a market. So not exactly the same but I see the point in a way.
mywaifuismeta 4y ago
Add to that lotteries, or pretty much anything that has random outcomes. Even if you don't gamble with cash, but something like Pokemon cards or digital items, there will always be secondary markets that let you cash out. If you want to ban these things, you'd have to ban all randomness.

paradite 4y ago

China regulates lootbox games. Here's a Cambridge research article on the topic: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/behavioural-public-policy/article/gaming-the-system-suboptimal-compliance-with-loot-box-probability-disclosure-regulations-in-china/B2642E2F8B7164236E5477D58D2B26DE https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/behavioural-public-p...

matwood 4y ago

You mean pay for loot box games? I ask because Diablo is one of the original grind for random drop games. At its core, Diablo has always been a gambling game even before micro transactions.

2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
Yes, paying out of game currency for in game rng loot. It has always had the gambling element though. While doing Meph runs I came to the conclusion that I wasn't playing because I was having fun, I was playing for the thrill of the loot drop rng.
2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
Diablo was still enjoyable without the best stuff. And they never forced you to pay for anything to progress. Diablo III made it even easier to get all the set gear (I have several sets on Switch and I only play casually) and it became about designing builds around gear that could survive the highest torment difficulties. Other games like Borderlands with similar item systems also don't rely on the player getting the absolute best gear to progress either. These pay-to-play games on the other hand, force you to hand over cash to progress and the fun often stops if you try to play for free.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]