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Jetbrains IDEs are just as good as Visual studio. As is XCode, QT creator and friends. And they work with many languages. I know it's a problem with Python and

Jetbrains IDEs are just as good as Visual studio. As is XCode, QT creator and friends. And they work with many languages. I know it's a problem with Python and Node though.

ur-whale 4y ago
> Jetbrains IDEs are just as good as Visual studio. As is XCode, QT creator and friends. And they work with many languages. Do these support edit and continue? Last I played with XCode, it didn't. Major flaw.
- tempura_1245 4y ago
  Jetbrains - yep. Both edit variable and hot reload code.
- brabel 4y ago
  A common thing I do is find the problematic code using the IntelliJ debugger, change the code, press Cmd+F9 to reload the function code, hit "drop frame" so the executing code goes back to the previous function in the stack (the caller function) so the edited function can execute again with the new code. While at it, you can also change the value of any visible variable and evaluate any expression in the context of the currently executing scope.
Ygg2 4y ago
Try debug a racing issue with debugger. If you use it, issue dissapears, if you don't issue it's there. Using print is a sign tooling isn't up for the task. Not necessarily inexperience.
- whynotminot 4y ago
  > Using print is a sign tooling isn't up for the task. Not necessarily inexperience. This. For application developers, if your users aren't taking advantage of features in your software, it's a sign the features either aren't actually better, or aren't intuitive enough to gain traction. It's a tell that you still have work to do. I don't see why the same arguments wouldn't also apply to tools for developers like debuggers. Just because your userbase is more technically savvy doesn't mean you shouldn't care about ease of use.
- kaba0 4y ago
  A print will quite often make the race issue disappear as well (due to it being synced in many cases). The JVM’s flight recorder may be a better option to fight such an issue.
  - brabel 4y ago
    Try an asynchronous logger in that case.
- strictfp 4y ago
  A debugger can work in many ways, it can also print, or trigger on altered memory. I would say that a debugger is generally more useful for finding race conditions than logging. But writing tests is really the best tool there. In my opinion printing or logging is much more useful than debugging when you want to be able to understand the sequence of events leading up to a bug, where the debugger isn't very strong. After analyzing the logs, using conditional breakpoints depending on each other can help you catch the issue live. Each tool has their strength and weakness, but I would never go so far as to say that debuggers are pointless. Being able to inspect memory and browse for inconsistencies can be priceless.
sverhagen 4y ago
Python and Node both let you debug with breakpoints and inspections and what not, if you're in IntelliJ. Though far inferior to their Java support, of course. Both in terms of the actual debugging experience and in getting it to run as such.
- loloquwowndueo 4y ago
  But if you’re working with Python shouldn’t you be using PyCharm? (No idea, I don’t use either )
  - Nextgrid 4y ago
    Language-specific JetBrains products are just IntelliJ with the language-specific plugin. Said plugin can be installed in IntelliJ directly.
    - loloquwowndueo 4y ago
      Oh I had no idea :) thanks for explaining.
      - sverhagen 4y ago
        Yeah, I was just saying IntelliJ as a general catch-all. I'm mostly a Java developer, but I (mostly) seemlessly add other languages to my workspace.
FpUser 4y ago
I debugged Python under VS Coded just fine until the point when it became unbearably slow as the script grew.
d0mine 4y ago
I debugged Python code in Emacs just fine. It is much less useful than logs for the work I do but it has its moments.
BiteCode_dev 4y ago
In Python the IDE doesn't matter as much, because if the support is bad, you can always fall back on pdb. In fact, I often use pdb anyway because it is sometime just quicker to run, and the code execute faster under it. Also, being able to execute any python code in a shell like env is super nice, and the concept of having commands instead of looking for a button has the same pros/cons than the cli.
sitkack 4y ago
PyCharm can debug Python code no problem, everything works out of the box.
jurschreuder 4y ago
JetBrains, XCode and VisualStudio just don't work on anything but the latest most expensive computers.

Jetbrains IDEs are just as good as Visual studio. As is XCode, QT creator and friends. And they work with many languages. I know it's a problem with Python and Node though.

ur-whale 4y ago

> Jetbrains IDEs are just as good as Visual studio. As is XCode, QT creator and friends. And they work with many languages. Do these support edit and continue? Last I played with XCode, it didn't. Major flaw.

tempura_1245 4y ago
Jetbrains - yep. Both edit variable and hot reload code.
brabel 4y ago
A common thing I do is find the problematic code using the IntelliJ debugger, change the code, press Cmd+F9 to reload the function code, hit "drop frame" so the executing code goes back to the previous function in the stack (the caller function) so the edited function can execute again with the new code. While at it, you can also change the value of any visible variable and evaluate any expression in the context of the currently executing scope.

Ygg2 4y ago

Try debug a racing issue with debugger. If you use it, issue dissapears, if you don't issue it's there. Using print is a sign tooling isn't up for the task. Not necessarily inexperience.

whynotminot 4y ago
> Using print is a sign tooling isn't up for the task. Not necessarily inexperience. This. For application developers, if your users aren't taking advantage of features in your software, it's a sign the features either aren't actually better, or aren't intuitive enough to gain traction. It's a tell that you still have work to do. I don't see why the same arguments wouldn't also apply to tools for developers like debuggers. Just because your userbase is more technically savvy doesn't mean you shouldn't care about ease of use.
kaba0 4y ago
A print will quite often make the race issue disappear as well (due to it being synced in many cases). The JVM’s flight recorder may be a better option to fight such an issue.
- brabel 4y ago
  Try an asynchronous logger in that case.
strictfp 4y ago
A debugger can work in many ways, it can also print, or trigger on altered memory. I would say that a debugger is generally more useful for finding race conditions than logging. But writing tests is really the best tool there. In my opinion printing or logging is much more useful than debugging when you want to be able to understand the sequence of events leading up to a bug, where the debugger isn't very strong. After analyzing the logs, using conditional breakpoints depending on each other can help you catch the issue live. Each tool has their strength and weakness, but I would never go so far as to say that debuggers are pointless. Being able to inspect memory and browse for inconsistencies can be priceless.

sverhagen 4y ago

Python and Node both let you debug with breakpoints and inspections and what not, if you're in IntelliJ. Though far inferior to their Java support, of course. Both in terms of the actual debugging experience and in getting it to run as such.

loloquwowndueo 4y ago
But if you’re working with Python shouldn’t you be using PyCharm? (No idea, I don’t use either )
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  Language-specific JetBrains products are just IntelliJ with the language-specific plugin. Said plugin can be installed in IntelliJ directly.
  - loloquwowndueo 4y ago
    Oh I had no idea :) thanks for explaining.
    - sverhagen 4y ago
      Yeah, I was just saying IntelliJ as a general catch-all. I'm mostly a Java developer, but I (mostly) seemlessly add other languages to my workspace.

FpUser 4y ago

I debugged Python under VS Coded just fine until the point when it became unbearably slow as the script grew.

d0mine 4y ago

I debugged Python code in Emacs just fine. It is much less useful than logs for the work I do but it has its moments.

BiteCode_dev 4y ago

In Python the IDE doesn't matter as much, because if the support is bad, you can always fall back on pdb. In fact, I often use pdb anyway because it is sometime just quicker to run, and the code execute faster under it. Also, being able to execute any python code in a shell like env is super nice, and the concept of having commands instead of looking for a button has the same pros/cons than the cli.

sitkack 4y ago

PyCharm can debug Python code no problem, everything works out of the box.

jurschreuder 4y ago

JetBrains, XCode and VisualStudio just don't work on anything but the latest most expensive computers.