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Why not both? Since Podman 4.1 came out with full Compose 2.x compatibility, I'm running Podman on Docker's socket, but using Docker's CLI to talk to it, so th

Why not both? Since Podman 4.1 came out with full Compose 2.x compatibility, I'm running Podman on Docker's socket, but using Docker's CLI to talk to it, so that I can use the buildx and compose CLI plugins. It works great, Docker's CLI doesn't seem to have any clue that it's talking to not-Docker. I even have VSCode's Docker extension and Remote Containers working this way.

deleted 4y ago
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jcastro 4y ago
Is there any config to set up this way or do you literally just run podman on the socket and it just knows what to do?
- piyh 4y ago
  podman replacing the docker socket https://www.redhat.com/sysadmin/podman-docker-compose https://www.redhat.com/sysadmin/podman-docker-compose
  - cipherboy 4y ago
    As a fun fact, you can also run: $ systemctl --user enable --now podman.socket $ export DOCKER_HOST=unix:///run/user/$UID/podman/podman.sock and get a rootless, Docker-compatible socket. If you're running, e.g., a test suite written against the Go Moby APIs, this will execute the containers with Podman rather than with the system daemon.
- pkulak 4y ago
  You can set it as systemd socket service, so it doesn’t even run until something tries to connect. That said, I don’t even bother with that. Podman can run K8s configs, and they are yaml too, only slightly more verbose than a compose file, if you strip everything out you don’t need. The CLI is nicer than compose too, with proper commands instead of tying up a terminal until a ctrl-c.
  - sureglymop 4y ago
    So you can use kubectl but it talks to podman and not to the api of a k8s cluster? Or does it have its own cli?
    - qbasic_forever 4y ago
      There's apparently a 'podman play kube' command that can take some k8s yaml like pod descriptions and instantiate them directly: https://docs.podman.io/en/latest/markdown/podman-play-kube.1.html https://docs.podman.io/en/latest/markdown/podman-play-kube.1... I hadn't heard of this until now but it sounds pretty nifty!
      - arinlen 4y ago
        > There's apparently a 'podman play kube' command that can take some k8s yaml like pod descriptions and instantiate them directly Wow that's a heck of a killer feature. Once Podmam implements a replacement for Docker's docker swarm, Docker is effectively deprecated.
        qbasic_forever 4y ago
        I honestly wouldn't put much faith in swarm being viable for long. Mirantis basically stopped working on it before they broke docker apart. The current docker company seems much more focused on developer experience tooling, not distributed systems. There are some longstanding swarm issues and bugs, particularly with changing configurations or one time jobs, that will probably never be fixed. I'd go straight to kubernetes and skip swarm personally. Stuff like k3s make kubernetes much easier to deploy at a small scale. Or I'd look at Hashi's nomad if something about k8s was really a blocker.
      - pkulak 4y ago
        Exactly. Here's a pod.yaml I use for testing a service at work: https://gist.github.com/pkulak/d22407b887461b416891b78fb3793971 https://gist.github.com/pkulak/d22407b887461b416891b78fb3793... It can probably be even more concise, but I stopped stripping stuff out here.
gigatexal 4y ago
Wow did not know about full compose support going to check it out now.
- mekster 4y ago
  That took a while... Although I don't see what benefit I get by going podman when docker works fine and I don't really care about theoretical rootless security enhancement.
  - gigatexal 4y ago
    Rootless pods in production sound dope. Keeping a security mindset while developing locally makes sense, no?
  - BossingAround 4y ago
    Can I use Docker on my company projects, or can I use it for personal use only? I was under the impression that Docker doesn't allow professional use with the unpaid license, though I might have gotten it wrong.
    - ByteJockey 4y ago
      Depends on the size of the company. Over $X revenue or over Y employees and you have to pay. Note that it says revenue, not profit there, be careful with that.
      - BossingAround 4y ago
        And that's why Docker is dead.
matsemann 4y ago
Is the compose support recent? Tried earlier this year, and it was not nearly there. And I use docker compose stuff as remote interpreter in IntelliJ/Pycharm stuff, that didn't work well with podman when I tested. I don't really care what I use, I just want to be able to develop locally without spending days setting stuff up. Rootless or whatever means nothing to me. Docker compose have made that easy for lots of otherwise complicated projects. Just compose up, point editor at the image and ready to go.
- lapser 4y ago
  It is at least a year or so old. But there have been quite a few bugs, and iirc it was only at v4 where incompatible bugs have been ironed out. Not that it wasn't usable previously, you'd just run into a few issues.
  - mekster 4y ago
    > Not that it wasn't usable previously, you'd just run into a few issues. I don't like that definition of "usable". Compose v2.0 compatibility became available only since last month which was very late. If podman isn't for technical benefit, is this all about political decision for RH to govern container ecosystem on their own instead of dealing with docker?
    - skrtskrt 4y ago
      I can understand the aversion to Red Hat control but the desire to use Podman is obviously arising from the concern about Docker control of the ecosystem.
    - jordemort 4y ago
      Podman has a few tricks up its sleeve that Docker can't do. Among other things: - `--rootfs` lets you start a container from a directory instead of an image - You can configure alternate container storage locations, e.g. to share a common library of container images among multiple machines over NFS - As previously mentioned, it has the k8s-like notion of "pods" which are multiple containers sharing namespaces with each other - It will play nice with systemd, both inside and outside of containers, and can generate systemd services for containers I think the last point is really why Podman exists in the first place; IIRC, Red Hat's developers made a valiant effort to get patches into Docker to improve its cooperation with systemd, but the folks working on Docker weren't interested. If Red Hat's patches to Docker had been upstreamed, Podman might not exist.
zamalek 4y ago
On my system I have a very small `docker` script that selectively calls either `podman` or `buildah bud` depending on the first arg. The CLIs are completely compatible.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

jcastro 4y ago

Is there any config to set up this way or do you literally just run podman on the socket and it just knows what to do?

piyh 4y ago
podman replacing the docker socket https://www.redhat.com/sysadmin/podman-docker-compose https://www.redhat.com/sysadmin/podman-docker-compose
- cipherboy 4y ago
  As a fun fact, you can also run: $ systemctl --user enable --now podman.socket $ export DOCKER_HOST=unix:///run/user/$UID/podman/podman.sock and get a rootless, Docker-compatible socket. If you're running, e.g., a test suite written against the Go Moby APIs, this will execute the containers with Podman rather than with the system daemon.
pkulak 4y ago
You can set it as systemd socket service, so it doesn’t even run until something tries to connect. That said, I don’t even bother with that. Podman can run K8s configs, and they are yaml too, only slightly more verbose than a compose file, if you strip everything out you don’t need. The CLI is nicer than compose too, with proper commands instead of tying up a terminal until a ctrl-c.
- sureglymop 4y ago
  So you can use kubectl but it talks to podman and not to the api of a k8s cluster? Or does it have its own cli?
  - qbasic_forever 4y ago
    There's apparently a 'podman play kube' command that can take some k8s yaml like pod descriptions and instantiate them directly: https://docs.podman.io/en/latest/markdown/podman-play-kube.1.html https://docs.podman.io/en/latest/markdown/podman-play-kube.1... I hadn't heard of this until now but it sounds pretty nifty!
    - arinlen 4y ago
      > There's apparently a 'podman play kube' command that can take some k8s yaml like pod descriptions and instantiate them directly Wow that's a heck of a killer feature. Once Podmam implements a replacement for Docker's docker swarm, Docker is effectively deprecated.
      - qbasic_forever 4y ago
        I honestly wouldn't put much faith in swarm being viable for long. Mirantis basically stopped working on it before they broke docker apart. The current docker company seems much more focused on developer experience tooling, not distributed systems. There are some longstanding swarm issues and bugs, particularly with changing configurations or one time jobs, that will probably never be fixed. I'd go straight to kubernetes and skip swarm personally. Stuff like k3s make kubernetes much easier to deploy at a small scale. Or I'd look at Hashi's nomad if something about k8s was really a blocker.
    - pkulak 4y ago
      Exactly. Here's a pod.yaml I use for testing a service at work: https://gist.github.com/pkulak/d22407b887461b416891b78fb3793971 https://gist.github.com/pkulak/d22407b887461b416891b78fb3793... It can probably be even more concise, but I stopped stripping stuff out here.

gigatexal 4y ago

Wow did not know about full compose support going to check it out now.

mekster 4y ago
That took a while... Although I don't see what benefit I get by going podman when docker works fine and I don't really care about theoretical rootless security enhancement.
- gigatexal 4y ago
  Rootless pods in production sound dope. Keeping a security mindset while developing locally makes sense, no?
- BossingAround 4y ago
  Can I use Docker on my company projects, or can I use it for personal use only? I was under the impression that Docker doesn't allow professional use with the unpaid license, though I might have gotten it wrong.
  - ByteJockey 4y ago
    Depends on the size of the company. Over $X revenue or over Y employees and you have to pay. Note that it says revenue, not profit there, be careful with that.
    - BossingAround 4y ago
      And that's why Docker is dead.

matsemann 4y ago

Is the compose support recent? Tried earlier this year, and it was not nearly there. And I use docker compose stuff as remote interpreter in IntelliJ/Pycharm stuff, that didn't work well with podman when I tested. I don't really care what I use, I just want to be able to develop locally without spending days setting stuff up. Rootless or whatever means nothing to me. Docker compose have made that easy for lots of otherwise complicated projects. Just compose up, point editor at the image and ready to go.

lapser 4y ago
It is at least a year or so old. But there have been quite a few bugs, and iirc it was only at v4 where incompatible bugs have been ironed out. Not that it wasn't usable previously, you'd just run into a few issues.
- mekster 4y ago
  > Not that it wasn't usable previously, you'd just run into a few issues. I don't like that definition of "usable". Compose v2.0 compatibility became available only since last month which was very late. If podman isn't for technical benefit, is this all about political decision for RH to govern container ecosystem on their own instead of dealing with docker?
  - skrtskrt 4y ago
    I can understand the aversion to Red Hat control but the desire to use Podman is obviously arising from the concern about Docker control of the ecosystem.
  - jordemort 4y ago
    Podman has a few tricks up its sleeve that Docker can't do. Among other things: - `--rootfs` lets you start a container from a directory instead of an image - You can configure alternate container storage locations, e.g. to share a common library of container images among multiple machines over NFS - As previously mentioned, it has the k8s-like notion of "pods" which are multiple containers sharing namespaces with each other - It will play nice with systemd, both inside and outside of containers, and can generate systemd services for containers I think the last point is really why Podman exists in the first place; IIRC, Red Hat's developers made a valiant effort to get patches into Docker to improve its cooperation with systemd, but the folks working on Docker weren't interested. If Red Hat's patches to Docker had been upstreamed, Podman might not exist.

zamalek 4y ago

On my system I have a very small `docker` script that selectively calls either `podman` or `buildah bud` depending on the first arg. The CLIs are completely compatible.