5 ms·

In my region of the USA, there are popular hotels and restaurants, even small chains of them, that were purchased by immigrants and then showed a dramatic decli

by wrp 4y ago

In my region of the USA, there are popular hotels and restaurants, even small chains of them, that were purchased by immigrants and then showed a dramatic decline in quality. Seriously, is there any way to address this without offending someone? We can talk about cases where the influence of immigrants from certain countries improved the quality of certain businesses, so we should be able to talk about the opposite.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
lotsofpulp 4y ago
US real estate investment companies do the same thing when buying hotels (especially the big ones that immigrants do not have the funds to buy). And they are staffed/led by American people. Many Americans participate in the business of buying a business and then lowering its quality. Maybe they borrowed too much to buy it and the debt service is causing cash flow issues. Maybe the goal was always to trade in reputation for short term cash. Maybe it is an REIT that wants to hit a certain ROI so it stays competitive in people’s 401k, or helps a city’s underfunded pension fund try to meet an unrealistic target.
magpi3 4y ago
To simply imply that immigrant owned == poor quality is lazy and incorrect. I am sure there is more to the story than that, and in order to have a proper discussion we need the rest of that story.
- Spooky23 4y ago
  It has a basis in truth, although it is more of a 90s thing. Now many franchise operators are immigrants, with more money now. At one time something like 30% of motels were operated by Patels.
  - dang 4y ago
    It may have a basis in truth but to single that one thing out and make it the issue is to forfeit its basis in truth.
- wrp 4y ago
  I spent a while today thinking about how to discuss this productively. I began listing various businesses in my area that had been bought by immigrants over the past 40+ years. In some cases, they maintained or even raised the quality of the business and became well-regarded in the community. In other cases, they trashed the business. What emerged as the list grew was that the pattern of good versus bad management was closely following ethnic stereotypes. At that point, I quit. I think it may be impossible to have productive discussion about this issue, because it will inevitably lead into sensitive territory.
  - magpi3 4y ago
    It is sensitive territory, but the main point is that correlation does not equal causation. I imagine if there is a correlation between immigrant owned and poor quality, there might be some cultural factors at play. An immigrant taking over a Howard Johnson's for example, might not "get" why Americans valued Howard Johnson's in the first place, and the end result might be, from an American's perspective, a significant drop in quality. Who knows. I just use that as an example. But my point is you have to look deeper, and just broadly stating that immigrant owned equals poor quality is lazy and quite frankly comes across as ignorant.
    - wrp 4y ago
      > just broadly stating that immigrant owned equals poor quality is lazy and quite frankly comes across as ignorant. Wait, you misinterpret my post. I did look deeper than just the quality of being an immigrant. The point is that those who did well tended to be of certain ethnicities, and those who did poorly tended to be from certain others. The sensitive aspect would not be their immigrant status, but in the perceived reinforcement of negative ethnic stereotypes. I never implied that "immigrant owned" by itself is necessarily a negative.
      - magpi3 4y ago
        I understand, but I still say you have to go deeper before a discussion takes place. Why are ethnic stereotypes being reinforced in this instance? Are the cultural elements or other factors at play? It _is_ a sensitive topic, and a complex one, which is why talking about it casually feels irresponsible, because it is so easy for some people to draw the wrong conclusion about what is being said.
SoftTalker 4y ago
Same thing with convenience stores. I had near me a local, independent convenience store that was really more of a small grocery store than a convenience store. They had a meat/deli counter where you could pick up some steaks on the way home, or get a lunch sandwich made to order on the way to work. They had a small but decent quality selection of produce. Potatoes, tomatoes, onions, lettuce, apples, bananas. A few years ago the owners retired and sold to an Indian family. All well and good, but they eliminated the meat, deli, and produce and added smoking glassware, vape juice, and cheap knives. Also they seem to have a problem with programming their checkout system, because everything rings up for $0.10 - 0.15 more than marked.
Spooky23 4y ago
Hotels are tax schemes that happen to rent rooms. The operator puts about 5% down and syndicates the rest. The investors are there for a share of accelerated depreciation, which means the operator keeps it for about 10-15 years. After that, it either gets recapitalized or someone like those immigrants show up and buy the place with a silent partner. The “uncle” provides the money, the operator invests a lot of sweat equity. Half the economy runs on this sort of crap. It’s the same reason strip malls eventually degrade to a kung fu place, big lots and an auto parts store.
anovikov 4y ago
Restaurants are simply a bad business to have. They are intrinsically unprofitable as there's almost no way to have a sustainable competitive advantage. So yeah, only way to operate them is to trick clients, trick employees (and pay them below minimum wage), and cut corners everywhere - immigrants are naturally better positioned to do it because they can hire their own folks, usually illegals, speaking to them in language no one else can understand, concealing their dodgy practices. Paying under the minimum wage comes naturally because how else do you pay to an illegal working for cash? Nothing to be surprised here. Restaurants won't be fixed until big corporations figure out how to operate fancy places the way they figured low-priced one like McDonald's - it's hard but not undoable and i believe will happen at some point - then competitive advantage of scale will price out even immigrants. And hotels are fine. Hilton and Marriott are not immigrant-owned, and nothing is wrong with them (apart from the wifi that usually sucks).
systemvoltage 4y ago

by wrp 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

lotsofpulp 4y ago

US real estate investment companies do the same thing when buying hotels (especially the big ones that immigrants do not have the funds to buy). And they are staffed/led by American people. Many Americans participate in the business of buying a business and then lowering its quality. Maybe they borrowed too much to buy it and the debt service is causing cash flow issues. Maybe the goal was always to trade in reputation for short term cash. Maybe it is an REIT that wants to hit a certain ROI so it stays competitive in people’s 401k, or helps a city’s underfunded pension fund try to meet an unrealistic target.

magpi3 4y ago

To simply imply that immigrant owned == poor quality is lazy and incorrect. I am sure there is more to the story than that, and in order to have a proper discussion we need the rest of that story.

Spooky23 4y ago
It has a basis in truth, although it is more of a 90s thing. Now many franchise operators are immigrants, with more money now. At one time something like 30% of motels were operated by Patels.
- dang 4y ago
  It may have a basis in truth but to single that one thing out and make it the issue is to forfeit its basis in truth.
wrp 4y ago
I spent a while today thinking about how to discuss this productively. I began listing various businesses in my area that had been bought by immigrants over the past 40+ years. In some cases, they maintained or even raised the quality of the business and became well-regarded in the community. In other cases, they trashed the business. What emerged as the list grew was that the pattern of good versus bad management was closely following ethnic stereotypes. At that point, I quit. I think it may be impossible to have productive discussion about this issue, because it will inevitably lead into sensitive territory.
- magpi3 4y ago
  It is sensitive territory, but the main point is that correlation does not equal causation. I imagine if there is a correlation between immigrant owned and poor quality, there might be some cultural factors at play. An immigrant taking over a Howard Johnson's for example, might not "get" why Americans valued Howard Johnson's in the first place, and the end result might be, from an American's perspective, a significant drop in quality. Who knows. I just use that as an example. But my point is you have to look deeper, and just broadly stating that immigrant owned equals poor quality is lazy and quite frankly comes across as ignorant.
  - wrp 4y ago
    > just broadly stating that immigrant owned equals poor quality is lazy and quite frankly comes across as ignorant. Wait, you misinterpret my post. I did look deeper than just the quality of being an immigrant. The point is that those who did well tended to be of certain ethnicities, and those who did poorly tended to be from certain others. The sensitive aspect would not be their immigrant status, but in the perceived reinforcement of negative ethnic stereotypes. I never implied that "immigrant owned" by itself is necessarily a negative.
    - magpi3 4y ago
      I understand, but I still say you have to go deeper before a discussion takes place. Why are ethnic stereotypes being reinforced in this instance? Are the cultural elements or other factors at play? It _is_ a sensitive topic, and a complex one, which is why talking about it casually feels irresponsible, because it is so easy for some people to draw the wrong conclusion about what is being said.

SoftTalker 4y ago

Same thing with convenience stores. I had near me a local, independent convenience store that was really more of a small grocery store than a convenience store. They had a meat/deli counter where you could pick up some steaks on the way home, or get a lunch sandwich made to order on the way to work. They had a small but decent quality selection of produce. Potatoes, tomatoes, onions, lettuce, apples, bananas. A few years ago the owners retired and sold to an Indian family. All well and good, but they eliminated the meat, deli, and produce and added smoking glassware, vape juice, and cheap knives. Also they seem to have a problem with programming their checkout system, because everything rings up for $0.10 - 0.15 more than marked.

Spooky23 4y ago

Hotels are tax schemes that happen to rent rooms. The operator puts about 5% down and syndicates the rest. The investors are there for a share of accelerated depreciation, which means the operator keeps it for about 10-15 years. After that, it either gets recapitalized or someone like those immigrants show up and buy the place with a silent partner. The “uncle” provides the money, the operator invests a lot of sweat equity. Half the economy runs on this sort of crap. It’s the same reason strip malls eventually degrade to a kung fu place, big lots and an auto parts store.

anovikov 4y ago

Restaurants are simply a bad business to have. They are intrinsically unprofitable as there's almost no way to have a sustainable competitive advantage. So yeah, only way to operate them is to trick clients, trick employees (and pay them below minimum wage), and cut corners everywhere - immigrants are naturally better positioned to do it because they can hire their own folks, usually illegals, speaking to them in language no one else can understand, concealing their dodgy practices. Paying under the minimum wage comes naturally because how else do you pay to an illegal working for cash? Nothing to be surprised here. Restaurants won't be fixed until big corporations figure out how to operate fancy places the way they figured low-priced one like McDonald's - it's hard but not undoable and i believe will happen at some point - then competitive advantage of scale will price out even immigrants. And hotels are fine. Hilton and Marriott are not immigrant-owned, and nothing is wrong with them (apart from the wifi that usually sucks).

systemvoltage 4y ago