7 ms·

Italy Is Held Back by 2.6M People Who Have Given Up on Work

38 points by chewz 4y ago

firstSpeaker 4y ago
https://archive.ph/TrlNM https://archive.ph/TrlNM
arcticbull 4y ago
There's gonna be a lot more of this, both voluntarily and involuntarily, as we continue to automate. This isn't bad, it's just different. We'll get UBI and robots eventually and this will be the status quo everywhere.
- enqk 4y ago
  I don't understand how to reconcile those like you who claim we are going to continue automating and adding more machines vs those who say that we have to reduce our energy expenditures because they come from extraction of fossil fuels that are either going to end up being too costly to us
  - arcticbull 4y ago
    Energy expenditure shouldn't be wasted on frivolity and pyramid schemes like Bitcoin, first. Second, energy usage will increase - electricity usage in particular - in the coming decades. That doesn't have to come from fossil fuels. Nuclear, wind, solar and (to a lesser extent) hydro are all green, renewable, non-carbon energy sources that can easily get us everything we need. Ontario already does it! [1] [1] https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/en/data-analysis/energy-markets/provincial-territorial-energy-profiles/provincial-territorial-energy-profiles-ontario.html https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/en/data-analysis/energy-markets/pr...
- baxtr 4y ago
  We already have an army of robots. They work in data centers. PS: I think this is not a stupid analogy, but instead helps to explain why the shift won't be sudden but steady, and it has already started a while back. It is a continuous development.
  - MonkeyClub 4y ago
    You're on point, I think. A thing doesn't need to look like R2D2 to be a robot, and our robots have already replaced a big chunk of human work: filing, analyzing, cataloguing, calculating, computing, plus all that sweet sweet business logic. I see a parallel in the rise of cuneiform and silicon: both find their primary application in optimizing bureaucracies.
- Ambolia 4y ago
  Western countries are getting a lot of free stuff from China through financial games, if that financial economy disappears, I wonder how much of that free automatic stuff is actually free and actually automatic.
  - bushbaba 4y ago
    If that ends, we could very well see a very drastic wage price spiral.
    - Ambolia 4y ago
      And a political crisis, a lot of people who build things with their hands and that have been "deplorables" for the last few years would start earning a lot of money and becoming much more important. And a lot of people that live in certain cities and hold certain jobs would lose a lot of weight in society. We all saw how bad things got in Canada with the trucker protests, things would be more volatile politically if there was a higher percentage of jobs in the economy that held the same kind of disruptive power as the truckers.
  - arcticbull 4y ago
    My understanding is that the cost of making things in the US is roughly the same as China. In China labor is cheap but energy is expensive, whereas in the US labor is expensive but energy is cheap.
- soco 4y ago
  From what I can see for the time being, the profits of that automation don't really go into people's pockets. The Big Corporation is successfully paying less and less taxes...
  - arcticbull 4y ago
    Yes, we will need a new social contract in the future.
justsomeguy123 4y ago
[flagged]
- m_st 4y ago
  Why is this downvoted? I'm not Italian but know some expats and they do indeed have family members that stopped legally working because they didn't want the Covid vaccine.
  - xxs 4y ago
    > Why is this downvoted? Claiming Italy invented the organized crime, i.e. - cosa nostra. The origins are deeper.
    - m_st 4y ago
      Yeah OK I mentally skipped this point. But still astonished to hear that the Covid vaccine is still a requirement in all jobs in Italy.
      - xxs 4y ago
        Even so, if the post starts with an obvious falsehood - unrelated to the topic at hand, the rest has no merits to me. It's written in bad faith.
        justsomeguy123 4y ago
        I'd say you are approaching the talk in bad faith. A talk is not a logical proof. A wrong phrase does not imply everything else following is wrong. Seem silly to dismiss the 2nd phrase because you disagree with the 1st. But sure, if you wrap it in fancy talk, it almost sounds like you are right.
  - smcl 4y ago
    I'm not sure that anecdotal data about you knowing a couple of antivaxxers explains why roughly four percent of the population are long-term unemployed. I can believe that some of those 2.6m are in that situation because of their position on covid vaccination, but it's a huge leap to assume this very new thing is the main reason especially given that Italy famously has a large number of officially unemployed people (which is trending down from its peak around 2015)
lethologica 4y ago
Different country, but I'm basically one of those people who fit in the category of unemployed and not looking / don't want to work. Why would I? Why would anyone want to sacrifice one third of their life, if not more, only to still be short on rent for a studio appartment? Especially in my country where rents are through the roof and leases are 1 year max. There is no stability. I cannot build anything here. Not even a home. Plus the older I get, the less interested I am in material things. I have a Toyota Yaris. It gets me from A to B reliably. I don't need, or want a Ferrari. It's the same with everything else that I own. They all do their jobs perfectly fine. I have no need for more 'stuff' so I have no need for more money to buy better and more stuff. I can't take any of that with me to the grave anyway. If I don't care about this 'stuff' then why would I care to work for someone whose only goal is to acquire more of this stuff for themselves? Or why would I want to work for a company that only produces more of this stuff to sell to poor souls who find meaning in this meaningless stuff? Especially when most of it just serves to destroy our environment further. I really don't care about work any more and for the first time, I feel free.
- bowsamic 4y ago
  Basically my attitude too, although I do have a job. I don’t understand how people are so motivated by getting more stuff. I just like buying food and drink. I’m not sure for what reason we’re supposed to be working beyond that. I feel like I’m being gaslit into wanting more simply to convince me to work harder. There definitely isn’t some intrinsic push inside me to work harder
- sofixa 4y ago
  > If I don't care about this 'stuff' then why would I care to work for someone whose only goal is to acquire more of this stuff for themselves That's a legitimate question. The "trick" is to either work for someone not trying to acquire more stuff for themselves, like a non-profit or a collective. And of course working something that is pleasurable to yourself, not random busywork with no real purpose. Realising how that sounds, I'm not trying to convince or argue with you, just sharing a different perspective. Every person is different - some like material wealth ( i personally enjoy various stuff money can buy, although certainly not Ferrari-level stuff), some like wealth for the sake of it ( most billionaires still at it).
TheGigaChad 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
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Ambolia 4y ago
I wonder how "gamified" are those numbers in other countries, and the unemployment numbers in general. Certain countries in Europe, at some point classify you as "unemployable" and give you some benefits so that you don't even show up on those numbers. Would be more interesting to see % of the population working and compare between different countries. Using "unemployment" numbers can mean very different things in different countries. I'm not saying that Italy and Spain don't have the worst numbers, they probably do, but I am very suspicious about how real the "good" numbers are.
- bb88 4y ago
  A quick check shows the data comes from the EU statistics division, Eurostat. One of their primary goals is to standardize statistics across Europe.
Markoff 4y ago
[flagged]
- Aachen 4y ago
  Okay, but how big a group is in actuality now not working because of this? That would be the information relevant to this article.
  - Markoff 4y ago
    "According to the latest data from the office of the Commissioner for the COVID-19 Emergency, Italy currently has around 1.4 million unvaccinated citizens in this age category, of whom only 10% have medical exemption certificates. Up to 800,000 of them do not have a permanent job or are retired. Thus, the work ban may affect about half a million Italians." https://theprint.in/world/unvaccinated-italians-50-and-over-banned-from-work-starting-tuesday/832925/ https://theprint.in/world/unvaccinated-italians-50-and-over-...
- deleted 4y ago
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- WA 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - ImHereToVote 4y ago
    mRNA are literally molecules that hold genetic code. It's therapy that coerces your cells to create proteins based on an injected genetic code. Sure the genetic code has only been observed to be transcribed into the nucleus under laboratory conditions. Even if it wasn't reverse transcribed into the nucleus, it is still genetic therapy. By definition. https://www.mdpi.com/1467-3045/44/3/73/htm https://www.mdpi.com/1467-3045/44/3/73/htm
  - Markoff 4y ago
    Yeah, I guess Bayer AG president Stefan Oelrich is completely clueless antivaxxer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qowDwaYx7vI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qowDwaYx7vI You can't see the forest for the trees with your vaxx propaganda.
epolanski 4y ago
It's not mentioned in the article, or I haven't seen it but Italy has introduced universal basic income for unemployed few years back. This is seen as one of the major changes. With the average net salary in Italy being around 1500€s per month, 800 is enough to get by, especially in the south where cost of living is much lower. All low income or seasonal jobs now are just skipped by the recipients of the basic income, for two reasons: 1) there is no point anymore going to work for a salary that isn't significantly better. 2) in case they lose the job they will also not qualify for basic income for some time as well. So they don't take jobs to avoid losing the basic income. I don't know what to think about it, I most definitely oppose basic income as it is. No point into having a basic income if you don't have a system that tries to lift people from it and put them in the job market.
- Aeolun 4y ago
  It’s not basic income if you don’t get it if you work. That’s the whole idea anyway. Any salary should come on top of the basic income.
  - epolanski 4y ago
    Yeah, maybe I should call it basic unemployment income then.
  - fredcatis 4y ago
    In fact it's simply a poverty aid of ~600 euro that every other civilized state provides. But Italians complain about it (because media do) and no one complains about 600 euro wages for full-time workers (because media don't). That's what the article is about: lazy people in a otherwise perfect situation. It's a perpetual gaslighting that Italians go through daily. We are talking about 600 euro wages the 3rd economy of the EU and the ~10th of the world.
- jaclaz 4y ago
  Actually it is worse than that, a not particularly qualified worker would hardly get more than 1000 maybe 1200 Euro/month (full time). The "reddito di cittadinanza" (universal basic income), depending on a number of factors, is something in the range 500-800 Euro/month. In theory this income is linked to a sort of unemployment office that should offer (quickly) actual jobs, you can refuse up to three of them and then you are out of the program, but in reality these jobs are never offered or are offered after several months and there are probably endless ways to workaround the limit. Starting this year the "three strikes" rule becomes "two strikes", but even this stricter rule - while it may reduce the amount of people supported by this income - won't do anything about the actual issue (having more people working). The two proposals have different limits: 1st proposal must be within 80 km from place of residence or however reachable with public transport in 100 minutes or less 2nd one can be anywhere in Italy Both, particularly the second, are simply non-realistic for low wage/entry level jobs.
benjaminwootton 4y ago
I write this on a lot of threads, but it’s likely another intended consequence of the Covid madness. Millions of people were pushed out of their jobs and either can’t get back in, or choose not to and decide to cut their cloth accordingly. The shutdowns and restrictions also killed a lot of materialism and led people to live cheaper and simpler lives etc with lower spend. Then we have the inflationary effects of the money printing reducing the value of the cash people do earn and pushing things like houses further away from reach. All 3 of the above apply to me some degree and I am also ambivalent towards working as a result. Maybe these are all good things for the individual, society and the environment, but none are great for the economy.
- AstralStorm 4y ago
  And "economy" is important because rich people believe it is important. Or rather, it going austere reduces their passive income. Actual market is supposed to follow the trend and finally kill off the infinite growth myth.
stupidcar 4y ago
This is an exasperating article. Where is the data on who these 2.6m people are, demographically speaking, what their reasons are for not seeking work, and how they supporting themselves if they don't work? 2.6m young people not working is very different from 2.6m people who've basically chosen early retirement, for example. It talks about a skills problem, but without giving real any numbers or context.
dantondwa 4y ago
This stats are bad and this article doesn’t account for a few points: - in Italy the amount of jobs that are carried illegally, without a contract, is huge. Particularly when you’re young or in certain sectors, having a contract is a dream. The state counts these illegal workers as unemployed. - in general, the work market is toxic. There is no minimum wage and salaries are so low and work conditions so shitty that, sometimes, people feel it might not be worth it Really, the country has so many structural problems that these stats can’t be just read in such a superficial way.
teknopaul 4y ago
One of Spains hidden problems in that stat is that they have regressive taxation, you pay a large monthly amount to be able to work. So many people literally cannot afford to pay taxes because the taxes are more than they earn. Its crazy and needs to change. Result is a lot of pissed of low earners who have no interest in the recorded economy and work entirely in the black market. Many would love to be able to invoice legitimately but can't (economically) so lose good work, and that leads to huge lost opportunity for the country as a whole. Its madness. The government literally try to tax more than people earn. Clearly they rarely get money that doesn't exist, except some people who take a hit one month in the hope things pick up next month. It's pretty much impossible to pay someone for a day's work. You have to either pay a full month (at which point the tax is reasonable), find black money to pay them, do no work, or do it yourself. Most people cant afford to pay someone a whole month's wage because that is what they are living off. Some of that 20% is black market but most of it is lost opportunity.
giords 4y ago
As an Italian, I say that the top reason is not schooling or scarce attitude, it's humiliating salaries. You work hours and hours and get peanuts for your efforts. While your employer buys the 5th Porsche. I come from one of the richest regions, yet as an IT professional I felt appreciated only when I started working abroad. No matter how much I tried, most job offers in Italy are ridiculous.
kkfx 4y ago
I'm Italian, living in France but still with friends and relatives in Italy: the substantial reason is simple: offered wages is too low to live. So many prefer black jobs and subsides because with a normal not-so-qualified job they simply can't survive. The actual government, as many others in the recent years, follow interests from USA in their geopolitical stanzas instead of Italian one (one of the reasons some Citizens accuse it of high treason, while the majority simply do not care) and the country slowly sinks on its own weight because a society can't prosper if there is a so deep difference between rich and poor and no mode middle class in between. That's is. Of course that's denied by most because neoliberals have drawn such society so it must be good. Right wings say the fault is in young and slackers who profit from the (demolished) social system to live as parasites, left-wings (dummy left, clerical in reality) say the fault is covid, Ukraine, grasshoppers and a bad quantum conjunction between a butterfly in the South Pacific and a shrimp fart but none want to admit that a functional society must be social with a difference between rich and poor, but not too much, with a social system, without being an actual fascio-Chinese system etc. Many instead of considering the power of numbers and so create a simple and not-necessary-violent nationwide mass strike imposing government and their private accomplices going to trials for MANY crimes coming back to a Republic decide that's nothing to do because all others do nothing in a loop and left the world advance seeing evolution from the window. Some like me choose years ago to emigrate even though I still have to find an active population to a point of thinking back at classic aristocracy and bourgeois models...
- fasteo 4y ago
  >>> So many prefer black jobs and subsides Spaniard here. This has been the norm for decades in some parts of the country (p.e. South and the PER subside). I am Andalusian; don't beat me up with the PER thing. I know what I am talking about. So, not sure if that's the reason for this huge 2.6M numbers in Italy.
  - kkfx 4y ago
    Since subsides in Italy are a relatively new addition I suppose that they might have a role but not being the cause themselves. Since I have memory in Italy was and is the norm offering various kind of mixed legal and illegal work like "you formally work for two hours but in practice their are 8" or "dear customer if you want an invoice the price is 30+% more than without, choose as you wish". That's happen regardless of quality of life and economical momentum, from a rich dentist owner of many cabinets to a poor "I do anything small" worker, from rich to poor areas of the country etc. Since taxes was and are NEVER fair, never used to keep the society egalitarian, avoiding too much difference between rich and poor most people see the State as an enemy, civil servant as thief, preferring to cultivate a personal garden than a whole common one. For all political opinions. In the end if for instance a plumber do a bad job obtaining justice in court is somewhat possible but only after MANY years and only for far less than the real damage and only if in the meantime the bad enterprise have not change enough names to being a different legal entity and have economical capacity to pay the damage, .......... so most prefer surveil and ignore legal protection at a whole. Such behavior let many at all level committing various crimes including some at State level passing reforms against people/national interests with excuses while most simply ignore them. In the VERY recent past Italy was a significant industrial power, self-demolished with the UK and USA help and local corruption, nowadays most young want to emigrate, and the once-almost-public big industrial system is teared apart. Qualified workers goes elsewhere, entrepreneurs of technical value works most with foreign third parties and private equity demolish the economical humus still there. It's not just Italy IMVHO but a global neoliberal phenomenon in a transition from industry to pure finance in the blind and criminal illusion that finance can rule nature, so far only (re)emerging global power (Russia and China) seems to have a bit of classic development behind to back their growth up. Unfortunately they are not exactly Democracies. Unfortunately people here allow local élites to copy JUST the non-democratic aspects of such emerging power like the actual neoliberal push toward a western-Chinese-alike society witch is itself as "socialist" as original nazi economy... In the end, just see the source: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/11/trump-fdr-roosevelt-coup-attempt-1930s https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/11/trump-... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/17/nazis-based-their-elite-schools-on-top-british-private-schools https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/17/nazis-based-th... https://www.heritage-history.com/index.php?c=read&author=carr&book=pawns&story=american https://www.heritage-history.com/index.php?c=read&author=car... (see especially at the bottom of the page) the classic two horse strategy that apparently works well all the time...
janesconference 4y ago
They're not "not working and not searching", they're working under the table to not pay taxes and they're officially unemployed to get the minimum income guaranteed by the State.

38 points by chewz 4y ago

https://archive.ph/TrlNM https://archive.ph/TrlNM

There's gonna be a lot more of this, both voluntarily and involuntarily, as we continue to automate. This isn't bad, it's just different. We'll get UBI and robots eventually and this will be the status quo everywhere.

enqk 4y ago
I don't understand how to reconcile those like you who claim we are going to continue automating and adding more machines vs those who say that we have to reduce our energy expenditures because they come from extraction of fossil fuels that are either going to end up being too costly to us
- arcticbull 4y ago
  Energy expenditure shouldn't be wasted on frivolity and pyramid schemes like Bitcoin, first. Second, energy usage will increase - electricity usage in particular - in the coming decades. That doesn't have to come from fossil fuels. Nuclear, wind, solar and (to a lesser extent) hydro are all green, renewable, non-carbon energy sources that can easily get us everything we need. Ontario already does it! [1] [1] https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/en/data-analysis/energy-markets/provincial-territorial-energy-profiles/provincial-territorial-energy-profiles-ontario.html https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/en/data-analysis/energy-markets/pr...
baxtr 4y ago
We already have an army of robots. They work in data centers. PS: I think this is not a stupid analogy, but instead helps to explain why the shift won't be sudden but steady, and it has already started a while back. It is a continuous development.
- MonkeyClub 4y ago
  You're on point, I think. A thing doesn't need to look like R2D2 to be a robot, and our robots have already replaced a big chunk of human work: filing, analyzing, cataloguing, calculating, computing, plus all that sweet sweet business logic. I see a parallel in the rise of cuneiform and silicon: both find their primary application in optimizing bureaucracies.
Ambolia 4y ago
Western countries are getting a lot of free stuff from China through financial games, if that financial economy disappears, I wonder how much of that free automatic stuff is actually free and actually automatic.
- bushbaba 4y ago
  If that ends, we could very well see a very drastic wage price spiral.
  - Ambolia 4y ago
    And a political crisis, a lot of people who build things with their hands and that have been "deplorables" for the last few years would start earning a lot of money and becoming much more important. And a lot of people that live in certain cities and hold certain jobs would lose a lot of weight in society. We all saw how bad things got in Canada with the trucker protests, things would be more volatile politically if there was a higher percentage of jobs in the economy that held the same kind of disruptive power as the truckers.
- arcticbull 4y ago
  My understanding is that the cost of making things in the US is roughly the same as China. In China labor is cheap but energy is expensive, whereas in the US labor is expensive but energy is cheap.
soco 4y ago
From what I can see for the time being, the profits of that automation don't really go into people's pockets. The Big Corporation is successfully paying less and less taxes...
- arcticbull 4y ago
  Yes, we will need a new social contract in the future.

justsomeguy123 4y ago

[flagged]

m_st 4y ago
Why is this downvoted? I'm not Italian but know some expats and they do indeed have family members that stopped legally working because they didn't want the Covid vaccine.
- xxs 4y ago
  > Why is this downvoted? Claiming Italy invented the organized crime, i.e. - cosa nostra. The origins are deeper.
  - m_st 4y ago
    Yeah OK I mentally skipped this point. But still astonished to hear that the Covid vaccine is still a requirement in all jobs in Italy.
    - xxs 4y ago
      Even so, if the post starts with an obvious falsehood - unrelated to the topic at hand, the rest has no merits to me. It's written in bad faith.
      - justsomeguy123 4y ago
        I'd say you are approaching the talk in bad faith. A talk is not a logical proof. A wrong phrase does not imply everything else following is wrong. Seem silly to dismiss the 2nd phrase because you disagree with the 1st. But sure, if you wrap it in fancy talk, it almost sounds like you are right.
- smcl 4y ago
  I'm not sure that anecdotal data about you knowing a couple of antivaxxers explains why roughly four percent of the population are long-term unemployed. I can believe that some of those 2.6m are in that situation because of their position on covid vaccination, but it's a huge leap to assume this very new thing is the main reason especially given that Italy famously has a large number of officially unemployed people (which is trending down from its peak around 2015)

lethologica 4y ago

Different country, but I'm basically one of those people who fit in the category of unemployed and not looking / don't want to work. Why would I? Why would anyone want to sacrifice one third of their life, if not more, only to still be short on rent for a studio appartment? Especially in my country where rents are through the roof and leases are 1 year max. There is no stability. I cannot build anything here. Not even a home. Plus the older I get, the less interested I am in material things. I have a Toyota Yaris. It gets me from A to B reliably. I don't need, or want a Ferrari. It's the same with everything else that I own. They all do their jobs perfectly fine. I have no need for more 'stuff' so I have no need for more money to buy better and more stuff. I can't take any of that with me to the grave anyway. If I don't care about this 'stuff' then why would I care to work for someone whose only goal is to acquire more of this stuff for themselves? Or why would I want to work for a company that only produces more of this stuff to sell to poor souls who find meaning in this meaningless stuff? Especially when most of it just serves to destroy our environment further. I really don't care about work any more and for the first time, I feel free.

bowsamic 4y ago
Basically my attitude too, although I do have a job. I don’t understand how people are so motivated by getting more stuff. I just like buying food and drink. I’m not sure for what reason we’re supposed to be working beyond that. I feel like I’m being gaslit into wanting more simply to convince me to work harder. There definitely isn’t some intrinsic push inside me to work harder
sofixa 4y ago
> If I don't care about this 'stuff' then why would I care to work for someone whose only goal is to acquire more of this stuff for themselves That's a legitimate question. The "trick" is to either work for someone not trying to acquire more stuff for themselves, like a non-profit or a collective. And of course working something that is pleasurable to yourself, not random busywork with no real purpose. Realising how that sounds, I'm not trying to convince or argue with you, just sharing a different perspective. Every person is different - some like material wealth ( i personally enjoy various stuff money can buy, although certainly not Ferrari-level stuff), some like wealth for the sake of it ( most billionaires still at it).

TheGigaChad 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

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Ambolia 4y ago

I wonder how "gamified" are those numbers in other countries, and the unemployment numbers in general. Certain countries in Europe, at some point classify you as "unemployable" and give you some benefits so that you don't even show up on those numbers. Would be more interesting to see % of the population working and compare between different countries. Using "unemployment" numbers can mean very different things in different countries. I'm not saying that Italy and Spain don't have the worst numbers, they probably do, but I am very suspicious about how real the "good" numbers are.

bb88 4y ago
A quick check shows the data comes from the EU statistics division, Eurostat. One of their primary goals is to standardize statistics across Europe.

Markoff 4y ago

[flagged]

Aachen 4y ago
Okay, but how big a group is in actuality now not working because of this? That would be the information relevant to this article.
- Markoff 4y ago
  "According to the latest data from the office of the Commissioner for the COVID-19 Emergency, Italy currently has around 1.4 million unvaccinated citizens in this age category, of whom only 10% have medical exemption certificates. Up to 800,000 of them do not have a permanent job or are retired. Thus, the work ban may affect about half a million Italians." https://theprint.in/world/unvaccinated-italians-50-and-over-banned-from-work-starting-tuesday/832925/ https://theprint.in/world/unvaccinated-italians-50-and-over-...
deleted 4y ago
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WA 4y ago
[flagged]
- ImHereToVote 4y ago
  mRNA are literally molecules that hold genetic code. It's therapy that coerces your cells to create proteins based on an injected genetic code. Sure the genetic code has only been observed to be transcribed into the nucleus under laboratory conditions. Even if it wasn't reverse transcribed into the nucleus, it is still genetic therapy. By definition. https://www.mdpi.com/1467-3045/44/3/73/htm https://www.mdpi.com/1467-3045/44/3/73/htm
- Markoff 4y ago
  Yeah, I guess Bayer AG president Stefan Oelrich is completely clueless antivaxxer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qowDwaYx7vI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qowDwaYx7vI You can't see the forest for the trees with your vaxx propaganda.

epolanski 4y ago

It's not mentioned in the article, or I haven't seen it but Italy has introduced universal basic income for unemployed few years back. This is seen as one of the major changes. With the average net salary in Italy being around 1500€s per month, 800 is enough to get by, especially in the south where cost of living is much lower. All low income or seasonal jobs now are just skipped by the recipients of the basic income, for two reasons: 1) there is no point anymore going to work for a salary that isn't significantly better. 2) in case they lose the job they will also not qualify for basic income for some time as well. So they don't take jobs to avoid losing the basic income. I don't know what to think about it, I most definitely oppose basic income as it is. No point into having a basic income if you don't have a system that tries to lift people from it and put them in the job market.

Aeolun 4y ago
It’s not basic income if you don’t get it if you work. That’s the whole idea anyway. Any salary should come on top of the basic income.
- epolanski 4y ago
  Yeah, maybe I should call it basic unemployment income then.
- fredcatis 4y ago
  In fact it's simply a poverty aid of ~600 euro that every other civilized state provides. But Italians complain about it (because media do) and no one complains about 600 euro wages for full-time workers (because media don't). That's what the article is about: lazy people in a otherwise perfect situation. It's a perpetual gaslighting that Italians go through daily. We are talking about 600 euro wages the 3rd economy of the EU and the ~10th of the world.
jaclaz 4y ago
Actually it is worse than that, a not particularly qualified worker would hardly get more than 1000 maybe 1200 Euro/month (full time). The "reddito di cittadinanza" (universal basic income), depending on a number of factors, is something in the range 500-800 Euro/month. In theory this income is linked to a sort of unemployment office that should offer (quickly) actual jobs, you can refuse up to three of them and then you are out of the program, but in reality these jobs are never offered or are offered after several months and there are probably endless ways to workaround the limit. Starting this year the "three strikes" rule becomes "two strikes", but even this stricter rule - while it may reduce the amount of people supported by this income - won't do anything about the actual issue (having more people working). The two proposals have different limits: 1st proposal must be within 80 km from place of residence or however reachable with public transport in 100 minutes or less 2nd one can be anywhere in Italy Both, particularly the second, are simply non-realistic for low wage/entry level jobs.

benjaminwootton 4y ago

I write this on a lot of threads, but it’s likely another intended consequence of the Covid madness. Millions of people were pushed out of their jobs and either can’t get back in, or choose not to and decide to cut their cloth accordingly. The shutdowns and restrictions also killed a lot of materialism and led people to live cheaper and simpler lives etc with lower spend. Then we have the inflationary effects of the money printing reducing the value of the cash people do earn and pushing things like houses further away from reach. All 3 of the above apply to me some degree and I am also ambivalent towards working as a result. Maybe these are all good things for the individual, society and the environment, but none are great for the economy.

AstralStorm 4y ago
And "economy" is important because rich people believe it is important. Or rather, it going austere reduces their passive income. Actual market is supposed to follow the trend and finally kill off the infinite growth myth.

stupidcar 4y ago

This is an exasperating article. Where is the data on who these 2.6m people are, demographically speaking, what their reasons are for not seeking work, and how they supporting themselves if they don't work? 2.6m young people not working is very different from 2.6m people who've basically chosen early retirement, for example. It talks about a skills problem, but without giving real any numbers or context.

dantondwa 4y ago

This stats are bad and this article doesn’t account for a few points: - in Italy the amount of jobs that are carried illegally, without a contract, is huge. Particularly when you’re young or in certain sectors, having a contract is a dream. The state counts these illegal workers as unemployed. - in general, the work market is toxic. There is no minimum wage and salaries are so low and work conditions so shitty that, sometimes, people feel it might not be worth it Really, the country has so many structural problems that these stats can’t be just read in such a superficial way.

teknopaul 4y ago

One of Spains hidden problems in that stat is that they have regressive taxation, you pay a large monthly amount to be able to work. So many people literally cannot afford to pay taxes because the taxes are more than they earn. Its crazy and needs to change. Result is a lot of pissed of low earners who have no interest in the recorded economy and work entirely in the black market. Many would love to be able to invoice legitimately but can't (economically) so lose good work, and that leads to huge lost opportunity for the country as a whole. Its madness. The government literally try to tax more than people earn. Clearly they rarely get money that doesn't exist, except some people who take a hit one month in the hope things pick up next month. It's pretty much impossible to pay someone for a day's work. You have to either pay a full month (at which point the tax is reasonable), find black money to pay them, do no work, or do it yourself. Most people cant afford to pay someone a whole month's wage because that is what they are living off. Some of that 20% is black market but most of it is lost opportunity.

giords 4y ago

As an Italian, I say that the top reason is not schooling or scarce attitude, it's humiliating salaries. You work hours and hours and get peanuts for your efforts. While your employer buys the 5th Porsche. I come from one of the richest regions, yet as an IT professional I felt appreciated only when I started working abroad. No matter how much I tried, most job offers in Italy are ridiculous.

kkfx 4y ago

I'm Italian, living in France but still with friends and relatives in Italy: the substantial reason is simple: offered wages is too low to live. So many prefer black jobs and subsides because with a normal not-so-qualified job they simply can't survive. The actual government, as many others in the recent years, follow interests from USA in their geopolitical stanzas instead of Italian one (one of the reasons some Citizens accuse it of high treason, while the majority simply do not care) and the country slowly sinks on its own weight because a society can't prosper if there is a so deep difference between rich and poor and no mode middle class in between. That's is. Of course that's denied by most because neoliberals have drawn such society so it must be good. Right wings say the fault is in young and slackers who profit from the (demolished) social system to live as parasites, left-wings (dummy left, clerical in reality) say the fault is covid, Ukraine, grasshoppers and a bad quantum conjunction between a butterfly in the South Pacific and a shrimp fart but none want to admit that a functional society must be social with a difference between rich and poor, but not too much, with a social system, without being an actual fascio-Chinese system etc. Many instead of considering the power of numbers and so create a simple and not-necessary-violent nationwide mass strike imposing government and their private accomplices going to trials for MANY crimes coming back to a Republic decide that's nothing to do because all others do nothing in a loop and left the world advance seeing evolution from the window. Some like me choose years ago to emigrate even though I still have to find an active population to a point of thinking back at classic aristocracy and bourgeois models...

fasteo 4y ago
>>> So many prefer black jobs and subsides Spaniard here. This has been the norm for decades in some parts of the country (p.e. South and the PER subside). I am Andalusian; don't beat me up with the PER thing. I know what I am talking about. So, not sure if that's the reason for this huge 2.6M numbers in Italy.
- kkfx 4y ago
  Since subsides in Italy are a relatively new addition I suppose that they might have a role but not being the cause themselves. Since I have memory in Italy was and is the norm offering various kind of mixed legal and illegal work like "you formally work for two hours but in practice their are 8" or "dear customer if you want an invoice the price is 30+% more than without, choose as you wish". That's happen regardless of quality of life and economical momentum, from a rich dentist owner of many cabinets to a poor "I do anything small" worker, from rich to poor areas of the country etc. Since taxes was and are NEVER fair, never used to keep the society egalitarian, avoiding too much difference between rich and poor most people see the State as an enemy, civil servant as thief, preferring to cultivate a personal garden than a whole common one. For all political opinions. In the end if for instance a plumber do a bad job obtaining justice in court is somewhat possible but only after MANY years and only for far less than the real damage and only if in the meantime the bad enterprise have not change enough names to being a different legal entity and have economical capacity to pay the damage, .......... so most prefer surveil and ignore legal protection at a whole. Such behavior let many at all level committing various crimes including some at State level passing reforms against people/national interests with excuses while most simply ignore them. In the VERY recent past Italy was a significant industrial power, self-demolished with the UK and USA help and local corruption, nowadays most young want to emigrate, and the once-almost-public big industrial system is teared apart. Qualified workers goes elsewhere, entrepreneurs of technical value works most with foreign third parties and private equity demolish the economical humus still there. It's not just Italy IMVHO but a global neoliberal phenomenon in a transition from industry to pure finance in the blind and criminal illusion that finance can rule nature, so far only (re)emerging global power (Russia and China) seems to have a bit of classic development behind to back their growth up. Unfortunately they are not exactly Democracies. Unfortunately people here allow local élites to copy JUST the non-democratic aspects of such emerging power like the actual neoliberal push toward a western-Chinese-alike society witch is itself as "socialist" as original nazi economy... In the end, just see the source: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/11/trump-fdr-roosevelt-coup-attempt-1930s https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/11/trump-... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/17/nazis-based-their-elite-schools-on-top-british-private-schools https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/17/nazis-based-th... https://www.heritage-history.com/index.php?c=read&author=carr&book=pawns&story=american https://www.heritage-history.com/index.php?c=read&author=car... (see especially at the bottom of the page) the classic two horse strategy that apparently works well all the time...

janesconference 4y ago

They're not "not working and not searching", they're working under the table to not pay taxes and they're officially unemployed to get the minimum income guaranteed by the State.