5 ms·

> Now bicycle drivetrains are operated wirelessly rather through cable tension ...ok, now I'm officially a curmudgeon.

by _moof 4y ago

femiagbabiaka 4y ago
Haha, myself as well. There are some advantages for racers especially as you can essentially program gear shift triggers as you move up the cassette in your small ring and eliminate the need to trim when the chain line gets funky. But these are really small advantages with a lot of tradeoffs to make.. unfortunately the mechanical group set is actually being eliminated from new product offerings especially at the higher end. Thankfully there is always the second hand market.
- kelp 4y ago
  Yep and you can also set it to just use one shift lever for up and down shifting. It will shift front and rear as appropriate to get you a higher or lower gear. In practice this means sometimes it shifts the front and then moves the back up or down 2 or so gears.
- hahaxdxd123 4y ago
  Well there's not many more advances to be made "at the higher end". You'll see trickle down and the equivalent of current Dura-ace level in the 105s inside of a decade.
Dave_Rosenthal 4y ago
Yeah, I was too till I tried it. Thousands of miles of instant, perfect shifts at the light touch of a button with no adjusting, no cable clutter, no cleaning, etc. is very nice. It would all be worthless if the electronic shifters were in the least bit unreliable but the two systems I’ve used have both been rock solid. Electronic shifting systems even add reliability vs. mechanical ones by allowing a knock to temporarily displace the derailleur, which the motor will then fix nearly instantly, rather than breaking/bending while futility trying to resist a high force.
- ephimetheus 4y ago
  Right. A guy I know had this fail while riding up a mountain (I believe he said the battery died) and he could not change gears at all even though he tried. He effectively had to limp his bike home because he was stuck in the gear he had riding uphill. Took him half a day or so rather than an hour. I’m certainly not a Luddite but this doesn’t seem to be a worthwhile trade off for me.
  - multjoy 4y ago
    The batteries last a long time, they don't just give up unless you forget to charge them (and we're only talking about a couple of hours). This would be like someone running out of fuel in a car. A known limitation which is completely avoidable.
    - lloeki 4y ago
      The good thing with my current bike is that it never runs out of fuel, by design. I can pick it up anytime and it just works, it was so 10 years ago when I acquired it, and it'll be so 10 years down the road. I have a Garmin Forerunner 735XT watch and it needs charging every 15 days, which is better than any "true" smartwatch out there. At some point in the distant-but-not-so-much future the battery will flat out die and there will be no replacement part. The experience from my mechanical watch is entirely different: it keeps on ticking as I move around, and the thing will probably end up surviving me. Going from zero to non-zero - whatever the value of non-zero is - is non-negligible mental weight. Zero is a freeing experience.
      - multjoy 4y ago
        Although with 20 years of use, those gear cables are likely to fail. Presumably you do things like lube the chain, inspect your tyres, keep them inflated to the correct level?
    - ndsipa_pomu 4y ago
      I've had a couple of Di2 batteries fail. One of them went suddenly and I had to grab a train to get home. The other one lost capacity quite quickly, so I'd have to charge it once a week until it got so bad I needed to charge it fully each day until I swapped in a new one.
bloat 4y ago
Well, it should really read "Now some, expensive bicycle drivetrains are...". But I guess it'll trickle down to more run-of-the mill stuff eventually.
kelp 4y ago
I have a 2020 Canyon Endurace with Shimanio Di2. I also added Garmin Vector pedals with built in power meters, and a Garmin edge bike computer. I think all in my bike has around 11 devices on it with updatable firmware… And I might even be missing a few. Both pedals, front and rear derailers, Di2 battery, Di2 Bluetooth adapter, Di2 Hub, both shift levers, Garmin computer, front wheel speed sensor. And I often wear a Garmin heart rate strap, so that’s another.
- nradov 4y ago
  I have Garmin bike lights which also contain updatable firmware and communicate using ANT+.
  - kelp 4y ago
    Oh I forgot, I also have one of those. So many computers on this bike.
Lio 4y ago
I have Shimano Ultegra Di2 on one of my bikes. It’s an older fully wired version. It’s wonderful. Once set up it works faultlessly and doesn’t require the readjustment or cable servicing that’s required with a cable operated drivetrain[1]. On top of that the front derailleur constantly trims itself to never chain rub and semi-automatic[2] shifting is surprisingly useful. Also Di2 let’s you add multiple shift buttons. So you could have shifting at every hand position if you wanted. Finally the thing that sold it to me. I did a multi-day ride on my old bike. After the first 4 days I got cramp in my hand everytime I shifted. Told myself I’d try di2. Every gear change is now as soft as a mouse click. All that and the only real downside side is you have to change it every 6 months. It’s a very well thought through system. I know lots of people with Di2 in my bike club. I don’t think anyone dislikes it. 1. Bowden cables don’t “stretch” as such, what actually happens in mechanical systems is that the ferrel ends settle over time or the linings of the cable outers wear and flake causing friction. 2. The semi-automatic mode means single buttons for higher or lower shifts. The front derailleur shifts as appropriate to give you the next ratio. You can repeat that on each hand or on the top hood position. So for example, if you want to change gears as you indicate left or right, now you can.
- mathieuh 4y ago
  I just installed the same version on my bike six weeks ago. For me the best thing is 100% reliable and fast front derailleur shifts. I’m pretty good at setting up a rear derailleur, but no matter how much I fiddled I could never get a cable-actuated front mech to shift into the big ring nicely. I would always get that annoying thing where it takes a second extra for the chain to catch on the big ring, or if I had it shifting nicely it would rub. Plus, since it’s just pressing a button with Di2, I can easily change into the big ring from the drops since I don’t need to push the whole lever sideways. With Di2 I haven’t dropped a chain and it shifts instantly, just whzz and it’s ready, with the automatic down shift at the back too. The auto-trim feature is great too, no rubbing at all. Honestly I don’t have a bad thing to say about Di2 at all, I’m far from a competent mechanic and between my group set arriving through the door and taking it for a first ride it took me about two hours to install everything. Just to change the cables previously would take me an hour of fiddling around with magnets to try and get them routed through the frame.

> Now bicycle drivetrains are operated wirelessly rather through cable tension ...ok, now I'm officially a curmudgeon.

by _moof 4y ago

> Now bicycle drivetrains are operated wirelessly rather through cable tension ...ok, now I'm officially a curmudgeon.

Haha, myself as well. There are some advantages for racers especially as you can essentially program gear shift triggers as you move up the cassette in your small ring and eliminate the need to trim when the chain line gets funky. But these are really small advantages with a lot of tradeoffs to make.. unfortunately the mechanical group set is actually being eliminated from new product offerings especially at the higher end. Thankfully there is always the second hand market.

kelp 4y ago
Yep and you can also set it to just use one shift lever for up and down shifting. It will shift front and rear as appropriate to get you a higher or lower gear. In practice this means sometimes it shifts the front and then moves the back up or down 2 or so gears.
hahaxdxd123 4y ago
Well there's not many more advances to be made "at the higher end". You'll see trickle down and the equivalent of current Dura-ace level in the 105s inside of a decade.

Dave_Rosenthal 4y ago

Yeah, I was too till I tried it. Thousands of miles of instant, perfect shifts at the light touch of a button with no adjusting, no cable clutter, no cleaning, etc. is very nice. It would all be worthless if the electronic shifters were in the least bit unreliable but the two systems I’ve used have both been rock solid. Electronic shifting systems even add reliability vs. mechanical ones by allowing a knock to temporarily displace the derailleur, which the motor will then fix nearly instantly, rather than breaking/bending while futility trying to resist a high force.

ephimetheus 4y ago
Right. A guy I know had this fail while riding up a mountain (I believe he said the battery died) and he could not change gears at all even though he tried. He effectively had to limp his bike home because he was stuck in the gear he had riding uphill. Took him half a day or so rather than an hour. I’m certainly not a Luddite but this doesn’t seem to be a worthwhile trade off for me.
- multjoy 4y ago
  The batteries last a long time, they don't just give up unless you forget to charge them (and we're only talking about a couple of hours). This would be like someone running out of fuel in a car. A known limitation which is completely avoidable.
  - lloeki 4y ago
    The good thing with my current bike is that it never runs out of fuel, by design. I can pick it up anytime and it just works, it was so 10 years ago when I acquired it, and it'll be so 10 years down the road. I have a Garmin Forerunner 735XT watch and it needs charging every 15 days, which is better than any "true" smartwatch out there. At some point in the distant-but-not-so-much future the battery will flat out die and there will be no replacement part. The experience from my mechanical watch is entirely different: it keeps on ticking as I move around, and the thing will probably end up surviving me. Going from zero to non-zero - whatever the value of non-zero is - is non-negligible mental weight. Zero is a freeing experience.
    - multjoy 4y ago
      Although with 20 years of use, those gear cables are likely to fail. Presumably you do things like lube the chain, inspect your tyres, keep them inflated to the correct level?
  - ndsipa_pomu 4y ago
    I've had a couple of Di2 batteries fail. One of them went suddenly and I had to grab a train to get home. The other one lost capacity quite quickly, so I'd have to charge it once a week until it got so bad I needed to charge it fully each day until I swapped in a new one.

bloat 4y ago

Well, it should really read "Now some, expensive bicycle drivetrains are...". But I guess it'll trickle down to more run-of-the mill stuff eventually.

kelp 4y ago

I have a 2020 Canyon Endurace with Shimanio Di2. I also added Garmin Vector pedals with built in power meters, and a Garmin edge bike computer. I think all in my bike has around 11 devices on it with updatable firmware… And I might even be missing a few. Both pedals, front and rear derailers, Di2 battery, Di2 Bluetooth adapter, Di2 Hub, both shift levers, Garmin computer, front wheel speed sensor. And I often wear a Garmin heart rate strap, so that’s another.

nradov 4y ago
I have Garmin bike lights which also contain updatable firmware and communicate using ANT+.
- kelp 4y ago
  Oh I forgot, I also have one of those. So many computers on this bike.

Lio 4y ago

I have Shimano Ultegra Di2 on one of my bikes. It’s an older fully wired version. It’s wonderful. Once set up it works faultlessly and doesn’t require the readjustment or cable servicing that’s required with a cable operated drivetrain[1]. On top of that the front derailleur constantly trims itself to never chain rub and semi-automatic[2] shifting is surprisingly useful. Also Di2 let’s you add multiple shift buttons. So you could have shifting at every hand position if you wanted. Finally the thing that sold it to me. I did a multi-day ride on my old bike. After the first 4 days I got cramp in my hand everytime I shifted. Told myself I’d try di2. Every gear change is now as soft as a mouse click. All that and the only real downside side is you have to change it every 6 months. It’s a very well thought through system. I know lots of people with Di2 in my bike club. I don’t think anyone dislikes it. 1. Bowden cables don’t “stretch” as such, what actually happens in mechanical systems is that the ferrel ends settle over time or the linings of the cable outers wear and flake causing friction. 2. The semi-automatic mode means single buttons for higher or lower shifts. The front derailleur shifts as appropriate to give you the next ratio. You can repeat that on each hand or on the top hood position. So for example, if you want to change gears as you indicate left or right, now you can.

mathieuh 4y ago
I just installed the same version on my bike six weeks ago. For me the best thing is 100% reliable and fast front derailleur shifts. I’m pretty good at setting up a rear derailleur, but no matter how much I fiddled I could never get a cable-actuated front mech to shift into the big ring nicely. I would always get that annoying thing where it takes a second extra for the chain to catch on the big ring, or if I had it shifting nicely it would rub. Plus, since it’s just pressing a button with Di2, I can easily change into the big ring from the drops since I don’t need to push the whole lever sideways. With Di2 I haven’t dropped a chain and it shifts instantly, just whzz and it’s ready, with the automatic down shift at the back too. The auto-trim feature is great too, no rubbing at all. Honestly I don’t have a bad thing to say about Di2 at all, I’m far from a competent mechanic and between my group set arriving through the door and taking it for a first ride it took me about two hours to install everything. Just to change the cables previously would take me an hour of fiddling around with magnets to try and get them routed through the frame.