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Hammerhead makes what’s known as a bicycle computer. The original purpose of a bicycle computer was quite simple, to track stats measured about performance on t

Hammerhead makes what’s known as a bicycle computer. The original purpose of a bicycle computer was quite simple, to track stats measured about performance on the bicycle. That’s expanded quite a bit. Now bicycle drivetrains are operated wirelessly rather through cable tension, and bicycle computers can integrate with them as well, through a protocol called ANT+. ANT+ is an open protocol, and most bicycle components and accessories with digital features (think heart rate monitor, computer, smart watch, smart trainer, etc.) nowadays are interoperable between manufacturers because of it. ANT+ however does allow for custom proprietary implementations. Shimano was supposed to be migrating away from their proprietary implementation for their DI2 (electronic shifting) systems, but they haven’t, and are now starting a trend of ostracizing competitors. The likely cause for this is that Hammerhead was just acquired by SRAM, one of the 2 major competitors in the bicycle component business. That move from open protocols to closed protocols used cynically is a pretty big departure and could be disastrous for bicycle riders, we’ve been lucky to have component compatibility across manufacturers as an option for decades. I could probably say more but I’ll stop here for now.

account-5 4y ago
I had no idea this was a thing, though I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. I think I'll be sticking with cables. You know these companies are looking for a way to monetise the gear shift data somehow.
_moof 4y ago
> Now bicycle drivetrains are operated wirelessly rather through cable tension ...ok, now I'm officially a curmudgeon.
- femiagbabiaka 4y ago
  Haha, myself as well. There are some advantages for racers especially as you can essentially program gear shift triggers as you move up the cassette in your small ring and eliminate the need to trim when the chain line gets funky. But these are really small advantages with a lot of tradeoffs to make.. unfortunately the mechanical group set is actually being eliminated from new product offerings especially at the higher end. Thankfully there is always the second hand market.
  - kelp 4y ago
    Yep and you can also set it to just use one shift lever for up and down shifting. It will shift front and rear as appropriate to get you a higher or lower gear. In practice this means sometimes it shifts the front and then moves the back up or down 2 or so gears.
  - hahaxdxd123 4y ago
    Well there's not many more advances to be made "at the higher end". You'll see trickle down and the equivalent of current Dura-ace level in the 105s inside of a decade.
- Dave_Rosenthal 4y ago
  Yeah, I was too till I tried it. Thousands of miles of instant, perfect shifts at the light touch of a button with no adjusting, no cable clutter, no cleaning, etc. is very nice. It would all be worthless if the electronic shifters were in the least bit unreliable but the two systems I’ve used have both been rock solid. Electronic shifting systems even add reliability vs. mechanical ones by allowing a knock to temporarily displace the derailleur, which the motor will then fix nearly instantly, rather than breaking/bending while futility trying to resist a high force.
  - ephimetheus 4y ago
    Right. A guy I know had this fail while riding up a mountain (I believe he said the battery died) and he could not change gears at all even though he tried. He effectively had to limp his bike home because he was stuck in the gear he had riding uphill. Took him half a day or so rather than an hour. I’m certainly not a Luddite but this doesn’t seem to be a worthwhile trade off for me.
    - multjoy 4y ago
      The batteries last a long time, they don't just give up unless you forget to charge them (and we're only talking about a couple of hours). This would be like someone running out of fuel in a car. A known limitation which is completely avoidable.
      - lloeki 4y ago
        The good thing with my current bike is that it never runs out of fuel, by design. I can pick it up anytime and it just works, it was so 10 years ago when I acquired it, and it'll be so 10 years down the road. I have a Garmin Forerunner 735XT watch and it needs charging every 15 days, which is better than any "true" smartwatch out there. At some point in the distant-but-not-so-much future the battery will flat out die and there will be no replacement part. The experience from my mechanical watch is entirely different: it keeps on ticking as I move around, and the thing will probably end up surviving me. Going from zero to non-zero - whatever the value of non-zero is - is non-negligible mental weight. Zero is a freeing experience.
- bloat 4y ago
  Well, it should really read "Now some, expensive bicycle drivetrains are...". But I guess it'll trickle down to more run-of-the mill stuff eventually.
- kelp 4y ago
  I have a 2020 Canyon Endurace with Shimanio Di2. I also added Garmin Vector pedals with built in power meters, and a Garmin edge bike computer. I think all in my bike has around 11 devices on it with updatable firmware… And I might even be missing a few. Both pedals, front and rear derailers, Di2 battery, Di2 Bluetooth adapter, Di2 Hub, both shift levers, Garmin computer, front wheel speed sensor. And I often wear a Garmin heart rate strap, so that’s another.
  - nradov 4y ago
    I have Garmin bike lights which also contain updatable firmware and communicate using ANT+.
    - kelp 4y ago
      Oh I forgot, I also have one of those. So many computers on this bike.
- Lio 4y ago
  I have Shimano Ultegra Di2 on one of my bikes. It’s an older fully wired version. It’s wonderful. Once set up it works faultlessly and doesn’t require the readjustment or cable servicing that’s required with a cable operated drivetrain[1]. On top of that the front derailleur constantly trims itself to never chain rub and semi-automatic[2] shifting is surprisingly useful. Also Di2 let’s you add multiple shift buttons. So you could have shifting at every hand position if you wanted. Finally the thing that sold it to me. I did a multi-day ride on my old bike. After the first 4 days I got cramp in my hand everytime I shifted. Told myself I’d try di2. Every gear change is now as soft as a mouse click. All that and the only real downside side is you have to change it every 6 months. It’s a very well thought through system. I know lots of people with Di2 in my bike club. I don’t think anyone dislikes it. 1. Bowden cables don’t “stretch” as such, what actually happens in mechanical systems is that the ferrel ends settle over time or the linings of the cable outers wear and flake causing friction. 2. The semi-automatic mode means single buttons for higher or lower shifts. The front derailleur shifts as appropriate to give you the next ratio. You can repeat that on each hand or on the top hood position. So for example, if you want to change gears as you indicate left or right, now you can.
  - mathieuh 4y ago
    I just installed the same version on my bike six weeks ago. For me the best thing is 100% reliable and fast front derailleur shifts. I’m pretty good at setting up a rear derailleur, but no matter how much I fiddled I could never get a cable-actuated front mech to shift into the big ring nicely. I would always get that annoying thing where it takes a second extra for the chain to catch on the big ring, or if I had it shifting nicely it would rub. Plus, since it’s just pressing a button with Di2, I can easily change into the big ring from the drops since I don’t need to push the whole lever sideways. With Di2 I haven’t dropped a chain and it shifts instantly, just whzz and it’s ready, with the automatic down shift at the back too. The auto-trim feature is great too, no rubbing at all. Honestly I don’t have a bad thing to say about Di2 at all, I’m far from a competent mechanic and between my group set arriving through the door and taking it for a first ride it took me about two hours to install everything. Just to change the cables previously would take me an hour of fiddling around with magnets to try and get them routed through the frame.
cycomanic 4y ago
What I don't understand, I thought reverse engineering of protocols for interoperability is explicitly allowed in most of the relevant laws (one of the few good things), so does hammerhead even need a licence to implement the functionality?
- femiagbabiaka 4y ago
  Yes, and in fact ANT Private (proprietary protocol) has been reverse engineered before. But this is kind of new territory for these manufacturers, and Shimano tends to be quite litigious. In fact the reverse engineering attempt I remember has all but been scraped from the internet: https://hackaday.com/2019/03/26/reverse-engineering-shimano-bike-electronics/ https://hackaday.com/2019/03/26/reverse-engineering-shimano-....
  - rale00 4y ago
    Looks like internet archive has a copy of the linked github page. Seems like it has everything needed, including the network key, to get things working. If you want to risk a legal fight with Shimano, that is.
- bsnal 4y ago
  Sure legally you can but then shimano can choose to break their contracts with you.
  - prmoustache 4y ago
    In that case it is legally broken and or there are terms within the contract that would assume penalty if done afterwards. I assume it would have been easier to reverse engineering than sign a contract as there would be no annoying term.
- plorg 4y ago
  My reading of the OP and the video posted elsewhere in the thread is that in building support for the proprietary extensions used by Di2 Hammerhead entered into a licensing agreement and was granted access to non-public Shimano documentation. So while it would probably be legal for them to RE the Di2 extensions, that would be legally different than continuing to distribute software developed with Shimano's permission and support.
jerlam 4y ago
> we’ve been lucky to have component compatibility across manufacturers as an option for decades. Can you explain what cross-compatibility we had? When I was cycling, there wasn't any compatibility between Shimano and Campagnolo (SRAM wasn't a player in road yet). Heck, Dura-Ace (Shimano's top of the line road component group) previously wasn't compatible with other, lesser Shimano groups. Maybe you're referring to mountain or the cheaper 8-speed stuff?
- gavanm 4y ago
  While Campagnolo is not compatible with Shimano/SRAM, when SRAM started up they built their own drivetrains as compatible with Shimano up to and including some of the 11 speed road components.
- oriolid 4y ago
  Somewhere between 2000 to 2010 was a golden age when bicycle components were much more cross compatible than before or after. SRAM was almost all Shimano compatible (cog spacing, freehub splines, etc, IIRC the only difference was cable pull for shifting) and for 10 to 11 speed you could drop a Campagnolo wheel into Shimano/SRAM system or vice versa without any noticeable mismatch. And during that time there was basically one common bottom bracket shell standard.
  - SyzygistSix 4y ago
    There are competing bottom bracket standards now? What a race to the bottom. Feeling even better about my 20 year old bicycle now.
    - alistairSH 4y ago
      Yep. A few… Threaded external (Sram GXP) BB30 (plus a few offset/asylum variants) PF30 (Bb30 but bearing is in a plastic carrier instead of pressed directly into frame) SRAM DUB And most have 2-3 widths (road, mountain, e-bike/DH bike/fat bike)
      - 4y ago
midislack 4y ago
Cycle drive trains are still mostly mechanical, these wireless computer aided shifters are fairly rare.
jabl 4y ago
> we’ve been lucky to have component compatibility across manufacturers as an option for decades. Aha-ha-haa! Tell me again how many different bottom bracket "standards" do we have, and why? (Just to pick an example)
- femiagbabiaka 4y ago
  True! But you can use any bottom bracket that fits the standard regardless of who makes it.

account-5 4y ago

I had no idea this was a thing, though I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. I think I'll be sticking with cables. You know these companies are looking for a way to monetise the gear shift data somehow.

_moof 4y ago

> Now bicycle drivetrains are operated wirelessly rather through cable tension ...ok, now I'm officially a curmudgeon.

femiagbabiaka 4y ago
Haha, myself as well. There are some advantages for racers especially as you can essentially program gear shift triggers as you move up the cassette in your small ring and eliminate the need to trim when the chain line gets funky. But these are really small advantages with a lot of tradeoffs to make.. unfortunately the mechanical group set is actually being eliminated from new product offerings especially at the higher end. Thankfully there is always the second hand market.
- kelp 4y ago
  Yep and you can also set it to just use one shift lever for up and down shifting. It will shift front and rear as appropriate to get you a higher or lower gear. In practice this means sometimes it shifts the front and then moves the back up or down 2 or so gears.
- hahaxdxd123 4y ago
  Well there's not many more advances to be made "at the higher end". You'll see trickle down and the equivalent of current Dura-ace level in the 105s inside of a decade.
Dave_Rosenthal 4y ago
Yeah, I was too till I tried it. Thousands of miles of instant, perfect shifts at the light touch of a button with no adjusting, no cable clutter, no cleaning, etc. is very nice. It would all be worthless if the electronic shifters were in the least bit unreliable but the two systems I’ve used have both been rock solid. Electronic shifting systems even add reliability vs. mechanical ones by allowing a knock to temporarily displace the derailleur, which the motor will then fix nearly instantly, rather than breaking/bending while futility trying to resist a high force.
- ephimetheus 4y ago
  Right. A guy I know had this fail while riding up a mountain (I believe he said the battery died) and he could not change gears at all even though he tried. He effectively had to limp his bike home because he was stuck in the gear he had riding uphill. Took him half a day or so rather than an hour. I’m certainly not a Luddite but this doesn’t seem to be a worthwhile trade off for me.
  - multjoy 4y ago
    The batteries last a long time, they don't just give up unless you forget to charge them (and we're only talking about a couple of hours). This would be like someone running out of fuel in a car. A known limitation which is completely avoidable.
    - lloeki 4y ago
      The good thing with my current bike is that it never runs out of fuel, by design. I can pick it up anytime and it just works, it was so 10 years ago when I acquired it, and it'll be so 10 years down the road. I have a Garmin Forerunner 735XT watch and it needs charging every 15 days, which is better than any "true" smartwatch out there. At some point in the distant-but-not-so-much future the battery will flat out die and there will be no replacement part. The experience from my mechanical watch is entirely different: it keeps on ticking as I move around, and the thing will probably end up surviving me. Going from zero to non-zero - whatever the value of non-zero is - is non-negligible mental weight. Zero is a freeing experience.
bloat 4y ago
Well, it should really read "Now some, expensive bicycle drivetrains are...". But I guess it'll trickle down to more run-of-the mill stuff eventually.
kelp 4y ago
I have a 2020 Canyon Endurace with Shimanio Di2. I also added Garmin Vector pedals with built in power meters, and a Garmin edge bike computer. I think all in my bike has around 11 devices on it with updatable firmware… And I might even be missing a few. Both pedals, front and rear derailers, Di2 battery, Di2 Bluetooth adapter, Di2 Hub, both shift levers, Garmin computer, front wheel speed sensor. And I often wear a Garmin heart rate strap, so that’s another.
- nradov 4y ago
  I have Garmin bike lights which also contain updatable firmware and communicate using ANT+.
  - kelp 4y ago
    Oh I forgot, I also have one of those. So many computers on this bike.
Lio 4y ago
I have Shimano Ultegra Di2 on one of my bikes. It’s an older fully wired version. It’s wonderful. Once set up it works faultlessly and doesn’t require the readjustment or cable servicing that’s required with a cable operated drivetrain[1]. On top of that the front derailleur constantly trims itself to never chain rub and semi-automatic[2] shifting is surprisingly useful. Also Di2 let’s you add multiple shift buttons. So you could have shifting at every hand position if you wanted. Finally the thing that sold it to me. I did a multi-day ride on my old bike. After the first 4 days I got cramp in my hand everytime I shifted. Told myself I’d try di2. Every gear change is now as soft as a mouse click. All that and the only real downside side is you have to change it every 6 months. It’s a very well thought through system. I know lots of people with Di2 in my bike club. I don’t think anyone dislikes it. 1. Bowden cables don’t “stretch” as such, what actually happens in mechanical systems is that the ferrel ends settle over time or the linings of the cable outers wear and flake causing friction. 2. The semi-automatic mode means single buttons for higher or lower shifts. The front derailleur shifts as appropriate to give you the next ratio. You can repeat that on each hand or on the top hood position. So for example, if you want to change gears as you indicate left or right, now you can.
- mathieuh 4y ago
  I just installed the same version on my bike six weeks ago. For me the best thing is 100% reliable and fast front derailleur shifts. I’m pretty good at setting up a rear derailleur, but no matter how much I fiddled I could never get a cable-actuated front mech to shift into the big ring nicely. I would always get that annoying thing where it takes a second extra for the chain to catch on the big ring, or if I had it shifting nicely it would rub. Plus, since it’s just pressing a button with Di2, I can easily change into the big ring from the drops since I don’t need to push the whole lever sideways. With Di2 I haven’t dropped a chain and it shifts instantly, just whzz and it’s ready, with the automatic down shift at the back too. The auto-trim feature is great too, no rubbing at all. Honestly I don’t have a bad thing to say about Di2 at all, I’m far from a competent mechanic and between my group set arriving through the door and taking it for a first ride it took me about two hours to install everything. Just to change the cables previously would take me an hour of fiddling around with magnets to try and get them routed through the frame.

cycomanic 4y ago

What I don't understand, I thought reverse engineering of protocols for interoperability is explicitly allowed in most of the relevant laws (one of the few good things), so does hammerhead even need a licence to implement the functionality?

femiagbabiaka 4y ago
Yes, and in fact ANT Private (proprietary protocol) has been reverse engineered before. But this is kind of new territory for these manufacturers, and Shimano tends to be quite litigious. In fact the reverse engineering attempt I remember has all but been scraped from the internet: https://hackaday.com/2019/03/26/reverse-engineering-shimano-bike-electronics/ https://hackaday.com/2019/03/26/reverse-engineering-shimano-....
- rale00 4y ago
  Looks like internet archive has a copy of the linked github page. Seems like it has everything needed, including the network key, to get things working. If you want to risk a legal fight with Shimano, that is.
bsnal 4y ago
Sure legally you can but then shimano can choose to break their contracts with you.
- prmoustache 4y ago
  In that case it is legally broken and or there are terms within the contract that would assume penalty if done afterwards. I assume it would have been easier to reverse engineering than sign a contract as there would be no annoying term.
plorg 4y ago
My reading of the OP and the video posted elsewhere in the thread is that in building support for the proprietary extensions used by Di2 Hammerhead entered into a licensing agreement and was granted access to non-public Shimano documentation. So while it would probably be legal for them to RE the Di2 extensions, that would be legally different than continuing to distribute software developed with Shimano's permission and support.

jerlam 4y ago

> we’ve been lucky to have component compatibility across manufacturers as an option for decades. Can you explain what cross-compatibility we had? When I was cycling, there wasn't any compatibility between Shimano and Campagnolo (SRAM wasn't a player in road yet). Heck, Dura-Ace (Shimano's top of the line road component group) previously wasn't compatible with other, lesser Shimano groups. Maybe you're referring to mountain or the cheaper 8-speed stuff?

gavanm 4y ago
While Campagnolo is not compatible with Shimano/SRAM, when SRAM started up they built their own drivetrains as compatible with Shimano up to and including some of the 11 speed road components.
oriolid 4y ago
Somewhere between 2000 to 2010 was a golden age when bicycle components were much more cross compatible than before or after. SRAM was almost all Shimano compatible (cog spacing, freehub splines, etc, IIRC the only difference was cable pull for shifting) and for 10 to 11 speed you could drop a Campagnolo wheel into Shimano/SRAM system or vice versa without any noticeable mismatch. And during that time there was basically one common bottom bracket shell standard.
- SyzygistSix 4y ago
  There are competing bottom bracket standards now? What a race to the bottom. Feeling even better about my 20 year old bicycle now.
  - alistairSH 4y ago
    Yep. A few… Threaded external (Sram GXP) BB30 (plus a few offset/asylum variants) PF30 (Bb30 but bearing is in a plastic carrier instead of pressed directly into frame) SRAM DUB And most have 2-3 widths (road, mountain, e-bike/DH bike/fat bike)
    - 4y ago

midislack 4y ago

Cycle drive trains are still mostly mechanical, these wireless computer aided shifters are fairly rare.

jabl 4y ago

> we’ve been lucky to have component compatibility across manufacturers as an option for decades. Aha-ha-haa! Tell me again how many different bottom bracket "standards" do we have, and why? (Just to pick an example)

femiagbabiaka 4y ago
True! But you can use any bottom bracket that fits the standard regardless of who makes it.