9 ms·

Commercial-Emacs

156 points by rvieira 4y ago

srb24 4y ago
Great! the worst of both worlds! What's next? Cats you have to walk outside every day and pick up after?
- whearyou 4y ago
  Hey I’ll pick up after my cats any day
ggm 4y ago
avgcorrection 4y ago
> Performant long lines. I dread scrolling through a mysqldump in Emacs.
- onedognight 4y ago
  M-x toggle-truncate-lines
  - HillBates 4y ago
  - ashton314 4y ago
    M-x solong-mode if it’s really bad
  - dataangel 4y ago
    doesn't that just disable line wrap?
- unhammer 4y ago
  You can edit gigabyte-large files with no trouble vlf.el https://github.com/m00natic/vlfi https://github.com/m00natic/vlfi – though it's a bit of a separate universe, you have to use vlf-occur instead of occur to find matches over all gigabytes of the file ;; To have it offered when opening large files: ;; (require 'vlf-setup) There's also https://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/so-long https://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/so-long ;; When such files are detected, the command `so-long' is automatically called, ;; overriding certain minor modes and variables with performance implications ;; (all configurable), in order to enhance performance in the buffer.
  - avgcorrection 4y ago
    Cool. Maybe I’ll use a `mysqldump` extension and trigger it that way :)
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
giraffe_lady 4y ago
Tree-sitter highlighting is interesting. I usually find emacs to have slightly worse syntax highlighting than other editors for most languages I use. When I've mentioned this before someone usually explains why I am wrong and it is actually superior or whatever. I do not care I don't like it as much. It's nowhere near enough to drop emacs over but if this changes it I might prefer it.
- mark_h 4y ago
  You can use tree-sitter already if you have dynamic module support: https://github.com/emacs-tree-sitter/elisp-tree-sitter https://github.com/emacs-tree-sitter/elisp-tree-sitter
- natrys 4y ago
  I don't know what this fork brings to table, but you could try tree-sitter today with your vanilla Emacs using a package[1] that works via dynamic module. Personally I am more interested in getting structural selection and navigation reliably working for any language. There is also a package named combobulate[2] to help with that. [1] https://emacs-tree-sitter.github.io/ https://emacs-tree-sitter.github.io/ [2] https://github.com/mickeynp/combobulate https://github.com/mickeynp/combobulate
- frou_dh 4y ago
  Dunno about the overall ceiling of Emacs' syntax highlighting capabilities. But the few times in the past that I've had reason to look at the definition of the highlighting for specific languages, the Lisp code has looked like horrific imperative rats nests.
  - jasperry 4y ago
    As with most things Emacs, there is no real ceiling to what you can do, because elisp. But as you observed, there's a reason that using syntax-table rules to write a highlighter has been called "black magic". The sooner there is anything even remotely grammar-based for creating highlighters in Emacs, the better.
- 4y ago
melissalobos 4y ago
I don't really understand what exactly this is. It looks like an open source version of emacs, but I don't understand how it is commercial. Could someone explain more or point to a better description of the project?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- flurie 4y ago
  The "why" section of the repo explains it, but there may be some missing context. All contributors to Emacs are required to assign copyright to the FSF before their contributions will be accepted. This[1] explains why. [1] https://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-assign.en.html https://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-assign.en.html
  - chungy 4y ago
    It kind of seems like a pointless middle finger to a situation in which... doing exactly this fork is permitted in the first place. Upstream GNU Emacs is already on a forge, putting it on GitHub doesn't seem to have much point beyond "because I can". Maybe he doesn't like the copyright assignment requirement? Fair, maybe, but I personally think it's not a big deal. "Commit rights" sounds like the bad old days of CVS/SVN. Send a pull request to GNU Emacs, get rejected or accepted. It's a lot easier nowadays.
    - b3morales 4y ago
      > Send a pull request to GNU Emacs GNU Emacs doesn't use pull requests.
      - chungy 4y ago
        Not sure what you think Emacs does, but it very much uses pull requests. You write/change code, commit it, send emails to a mailing list requesting to incorporate the code. Just because it's not GitHub doesn't mean it doesn't use pull requests (which predate GitHub, all the way back to Git's first releases in 2005).
satanscatdog 4y ago
Dont really care for the opening quote about the emacs maintainers. Emacs is moving plenty fast. I dont see why they wouldnt contribute upstream. Its added such an insane feature list in the last few years (native compilation???, tree-sitter in progress, PGTK) . Sure this has some nice features but its not like any of them are outside the capabilities of the people making the version of emacs most people actually use, better, given how monumental the improvements that have already been made. It would be nice to get a better GC in, and the long lines. It just seems like the author is acting as though they are the only ones to be attempting to make real improvements despite the obvious efforts by a good few other people.
- HillBates 4y ago
  you said it yourself. "added such an insane feature list in the last few years " those people are there more then few years. so this improvement has nothing to do with these people ( except managerial role ).
  - nverno 4y ago
    What are you saying? The current maintainers have made huge contributions for many years.
  - vkazanov 4y ago
    Huh?! Emacs maintainers do an insane amount of work! They know most of the code, write new code, review code submissions, support a bunch of mailing lists and answer numerous stupid questions.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
midislack 4y ago
I don't like some of the moves being made by emacs lately, deprecating libxft for example. It's been fixed but the FreeDesktop people won't take the patches because they're "so over" X11 now.
- neandrake 4y ago
  Could you link to what you’re referencing? I’m not familiar with X development but it looks like libXft had a 2.3.4 release around 10 months ago, which seems relatively active for X-related projects. https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/lib/libxft https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/lib/libxft
  - psibi 4y ago
    The recommendation is now to use Cairo + HarfBuzz instead. There are more details here: https://github.com/emacs-mirror/emacs/blob/master/etc/NEWS.28 https://github.com/emacs-mirror/emacs/blob/master/etc/NEWS.2...
zaps 4y ago
I have no idea what this is.
- iueotnmunto 4y ago
  Agreed, it indicates it fixes some systemic issues present in emacs, but doesn't fully articulate what those issues are.
- unixhero 4y ago
  Yup me neither, and also, why the name?
  - beprogrammed 4y ago
    Just a fork of emacs with an edgy name and some interesting modifications. Let's help it live up to its name, and submit a pull request that adds advertising banners and tracking code.
- hatmatrix 4y ago
  In my understanding, a not-fully-FSF-compliant fork of emacs with these features[1]: Performant long lines Tree-sitter font highlighting Gnus is rewritten to be non-blocking Process management is rewritten Tree-sitter replacement of ersatz PPSS syntactic parser Moving garbage collector rudiments [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/v3iqdv/commercialemacs/iays8q2/ https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/v3iqdv/commercialema...
  - zasdffaa 4y ago
    > Performant long lines which would be a massive winner IMO.
  - rurban 4y ago
    no requirement for a written copyright assignment to the FSF is their biggest feature.
pdimitar 4y ago
This does look potentially interesting and I hope it takes off and does NOT take 5 years just to become useful and easy to install (seriously, I don't care about build scripts; just put it on a few package managers with the scripts embedded inside and be done with it). That being said, after 20 years of Emacs I finally gave up and started learning NeoVim with its various nice plugins. It's a drag and a grind but every little thing I learn improves and accelerates my workflow -- the experience is rewarding. And there always is some issue with Emacs, always and inevitably. I got tired of chasing after it, and I tried a number of "distros" like Spacemacs, Centaur, DOOM and 1-2 others whose names I don't remember. Suddenly and out of the blue, neither Elixir nor Rust LSP modes can find the root of a project (?!)... whereas NeoVim LSP finds them just fine. I know, I know; it's not "out of the blue", but again, I got tired of pampering a piece of software that's apparently so fragile that every little small movement in the other parts of the system breaks it. It's burning me out. Never should have started with Emacs and it's on me that it took me so long to finally give up on it, I know, but I'd really expect from programmers and "hackers" something more informative and supportive than "make it your own by tinkering, dummy". Apparently it doesn't occur to those people that doing full-time programming and tinkering with your editors in off-duty hours is not everyone's dream life. A good reasonable set of modern features and lack of friction out of the box are important. Emacs people don't value that. Pity. They lost a formerly passionate user.
- marcinreal 4y ago
  > Suddenly and out of the blue, neither Elixir nor Rust LSP modes can find the root of a project (?!) I ran into this exact thing. The solution for me was to use eglot. I just wrote this article describing my config (might need an update soon because some things still needed additional tinkering): https://www.bytedude.com/setting-up-rust-support-in-emacs/ https://www.bytedude.com/setting-up-rust-support-in-emacs/ > Apparently it doesn't occur to those people that doing full-time programming and tinkering with your editors in off-duty hours is not everyone's dream life. > A good reasonable set of modern features and lack of friction out of the box are important. Emacs people don't value that. Pity. They lost a formerly passionate user. Completely agree. I needed to setup a Rust environment in Emacs for work purposes and it was an awful experience, and even after all that I don't have a great Rust experience. Theoretically Emacs is the best editor, but in practice it takes hundreds of hours of configuration to get going and then you find out it's painfully slow. (To be fair though, I squeeze every drop of Elispy usefulness out of this program that I can.) My Emacs is at a state where I'm pretty happy with it, and I limit my time trying to improve it more - but it is so hard for me to recommend it to anyone.
loxias 4y ago
This is fantastic. Also, hilarious.
kazinator 4y ago
> But one thing moving collectors can do that non-moving ones can't is generational sequestration, that is, keeping the youngest cohort of Lisp values separated from older ones. This allows fast, intermediary cycles which only scan the "nursery" generation (the rationale being old objects are very likely to still be referenced). A non-moving collector must traverse the full set on each cycle since its allocations are interleaved. This is why Emacs bros are as eager to raise collection thresholds as motherboard jockeys are to overclock their BIOS. That is untrue. TXR Lisp has a generational GC, over non-moving heaps. The way this works is incredible. Are you sitting down? Okay, here is a pen and sign the non-disclosure agreement. Good! So, when baby objects are allocated, pointers to these objects are recorded in ... a nursery array. Not the objects themselves, just their pointers. During a fast garbage collection cycle (in the sweep phase) we just have to sweep through this array to find the unreachable babies all in a bunch, rather than looking for them through all the heap blocks.
- gnufx 4y ago
  > That is untrue. Indeed. Emacs actually got a preliminary port to the Boehm generational, incremental, mark-sweep collector many years ago, with a complete lack of interest in pursuing it. Also, Emacs conservative stack scanning came from SIOD via SCM https://people.delphiforums.com/gjc//siod.html#garbage https://people.delphiforums.com/gjc//siod.html#garbage
  - zasdffaa 4y ago
    > Indeed. Emacs actually got a preliminary port to the Boehm generational, incremental, mark-sweep collector many years ago, with a complete lack of interest in pursuing it. Ja have a link? Asking because I've interacted with the devs and they are highly focused on getting emacs better. They would not reject it if it offered solid value. Also you have a link to this Boehm collector you mention as the only one I know of is the conservative one and I'd like to know more. TIA
    - rurban 4y ago
      The boehm GC is the most conservative one. And very slow.
Saint_Genet 4y ago
Yes, I'm going to start using a fork that exists solely due to personal grudges
rurban 4y ago
Unfortunately native-comp doesn't work

Commercial-Emacs

156 points by rvieira 4y ago

srb24 4y ago

Great! the worst of both worlds! What's next? Cats you have to walk outside every day and pick up after?

whearyou 4y ago
Hey I’ll pick up after my cats any day

ggm 4y ago

avgcorrection 4y ago

> Performant long lines. I dread scrolling through a mysqldump in Emacs.

onedognight 4y ago
M-x toggle-truncate-lines
- HillBates 4y ago
- ashton314 4y ago
  M-x solong-mode if it’s really bad
- dataangel 4y ago
  doesn't that just disable line wrap?
unhammer 4y ago
You can edit gigabyte-large files with no trouble vlf.el https://github.com/m00natic/vlfi https://github.com/m00natic/vlfi – though it's a bit of a separate universe, you have to use vlf-occur instead of occur to find matches over all gigabytes of the file ;; To have it offered when opening large files: ;; (require 'vlf-setup) There's also https://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/so-long https://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/so-long ;; When such files are detected, the command `so-long' is automatically called, ;; overriding certain minor modes and variables with performance implications ;; (all configurable), in order to enhance performance in the buffer.
- avgcorrection 4y ago
  Cool. Maybe I’ll use a `mysqldump` extension and trigger it that way :)

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

giraffe_lady 4y ago

Tree-sitter highlighting is interesting. I usually find emacs to have slightly worse syntax highlighting than other editors for most languages I use. When I've mentioned this before someone usually explains why I am wrong and it is actually superior or whatever. I do not care I don't like it as much. It's nowhere near enough to drop emacs over but if this changes it I might prefer it.

mark_h 4y ago
You can use tree-sitter already if you have dynamic module support: https://github.com/emacs-tree-sitter/elisp-tree-sitter https://github.com/emacs-tree-sitter/elisp-tree-sitter
natrys 4y ago
I don't know what this fork brings to table, but you could try tree-sitter today with your vanilla Emacs using a package[1] that works via dynamic module. Personally I am more interested in getting structural selection and navigation reliably working for any language. There is also a package named combobulate[2] to help with that. [1] https://emacs-tree-sitter.github.io/ https://emacs-tree-sitter.github.io/ [2] https://github.com/mickeynp/combobulate https://github.com/mickeynp/combobulate
frou_dh 4y ago
Dunno about the overall ceiling of Emacs' syntax highlighting capabilities. But the few times in the past that I've had reason to look at the definition of the highlighting for specific languages, the Lisp code has looked like horrific imperative rats nests.
- jasperry 4y ago
  As with most things Emacs, there is no real ceiling to what you can do, because elisp. But as you observed, there's a reason that using syntax-table rules to write a highlighter has been called "black magic". The sooner there is anything even remotely grammar-based for creating highlighters in Emacs, the better.
4y ago

melissalobos 4y ago

I don't really understand what exactly this is. It looks like an open source version of emacs, but I don't understand how it is commercial. Could someone explain more or point to a better description of the project?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
flurie 4y ago
The "why" section of the repo explains it, but there may be some missing context. All contributors to Emacs are required to assign copyright to the FSF before their contributions will be accepted. This[1] explains why. [1] https://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-assign.en.html https://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-assign.en.html
- chungy 4y ago
  It kind of seems like a pointless middle finger to a situation in which... doing exactly this fork is permitted in the first place. Upstream GNU Emacs is already on a forge, putting it on GitHub doesn't seem to have much point beyond "because I can". Maybe he doesn't like the copyright assignment requirement? Fair, maybe, but I personally think it's not a big deal. "Commit rights" sounds like the bad old days of CVS/SVN. Send a pull request to GNU Emacs, get rejected or accepted. It's a lot easier nowadays.
  - b3morales 4y ago
    > Send a pull request to GNU Emacs GNU Emacs doesn't use pull requests.
    - chungy 4y ago
      Not sure what you think Emacs does, but it very much uses pull requests. You write/change code, commit it, send emails to a mailing list requesting to incorporate the code. Just because it's not GitHub doesn't mean it doesn't use pull requests (which predate GitHub, all the way back to Git's first releases in 2005).

satanscatdog 4y ago

Dont really care for the opening quote about the emacs maintainers. Emacs is moving plenty fast. I dont see why they wouldnt contribute upstream. Its added such an insane feature list in the last few years (native compilation???, tree-sitter in progress, PGTK) . Sure this has some nice features but its not like any of them are outside the capabilities of the people making the version of emacs most people actually use, better, given how monumental the improvements that have already been made. It would be nice to get a better GC in, and the long lines. It just seems like the author is acting as though they are the only ones to be attempting to make real improvements despite the obvious efforts by a good few other people.

HillBates 4y ago
you said it yourself. "added such an insane feature list in the last few years " those people are there more then few years. so this improvement has nothing to do with these people ( except managerial role ).
- nverno 4y ago
  What are you saying? The current maintainers have made huge contributions for many years.
- vkazanov 4y ago
  Huh?! Emacs maintainers do an insane amount of work! They know most of the code, write new code, review code submissions, support a bunch of mailing lists and answer numerous stupid questions.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

midislack 4y ago

I don't like some of the moves being made by emacs lately, deprecating libxft for example. It's been fixed but the FreeDesktop people won't take the patches because they're "so over" X11 now.

neandrake 4y ago
Could you link to what you’re referencing? I’m not familiar with X development but it looks like libXft had a 2.3.4 release around 10 months ago, which seems relatively active for X-related projects. https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/lib/libxft https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/lib/libxft
- psibi 4y ago
  The recommendation is now to use Cairo + HarfBuzz instead. There are more details here: https://github.com/emacs-mirror/emacs/blob/master/etc/NEWS.28 https://github.com/emacs-mirror/emacs/blob/master/etc/NEWS.2...

zaps 4y ago

I have no idea what this is.

iueotnmunto 4y ago
Agreed, it indicates it fixes some systemic issues present in emacs, but doesn't fully articulate what those issues are.
unixhero 4y ago
Yup me neither, and also, why the name?
- beprogrammed 4y ago
  Just a fork of emacs with an edgy name and some interesting modifications. Let's help it live up to its name, and submit a pull request that adds advertising banners and tracking code.
hatmatrix 4y ago
In my understanding, a not-fully-FSF-compliant fork of emacs with these features[1]: Performant long lines Tree-sitter font highlighting Gnus is rewritten to be non-blocking Process management is rewritten Tree-sitter replacement of ersatz PPSS syntactic parser Moving garbage collector rudiments [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/v3iqdv/commercialemacs/iays8q2/ https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/v3iqdv/commercialema...
- zasdffaa 4y ago
  > Performant long lines which would be a massive winner IMO.
- rurban 4y ago
  no requirement for a written copyright assignment to the FSF is their biggest feature.

pdimitar 4y ago

This does look potentially interesting and I hope it takes off and does NOT take 5 years just to become useful and easy to install (seriously, I don't care about build scripts; just put it on a few package managers with the scripts embedded inside and be done with it). That being said, after 20 years of Emacs I finally gave up and started learning NeoVim with its various nice plugins. It's a drag and a grind but every little thing I learn improves and accelerates my workflow -- the experience is rewarding. And there always is some issue with Emacs, always and inevitably. I got tired of chasing after it, and I tried a number of "distros" like Spacemacs, Centaur, DOOM and 1-2 others whose names I don't remember. Suddenly and out of the blue, neither Elixir nor Rust LSP modes can find the root of a project (?!)... whereas NeoVim LSP finds them just fine. I know, I know; it's not "out of the blue", but again, I got tired of pampering a piece of software that's apparently so fragile that every little small movement in the other parts of the system breaks it. It's burning me out. Never should have started with Emacs and it's on me that it took me so long to finally give up on it, I know, but I'd really expect from programmers and "hackers" something more informative and supportive than "make it your own by tinkering, dummy". Apparently it doesn't occur to those people that doing full-time programming and tinkering with your editors in off-duty hours is not everyone's dream life. A good reasonable set of modern features and lack of friction out of the box are important. Emacs people don't value that. Pity. They lost a formerly passionate user.

marcinreal 4y ago
> Suddenly and out of the blue, neither Elixir nor Rust LSP modes can find the root of a project (?!) I ran into this exact thing. The solution for me was to use eglot. I just wrote this article describing my config (might need an update soon because some things still needed additional tinkering): https://www.bytedude.com/setting-up-rust-support-in-emacs/ https://www.bytedude.com/setting-up-rust-support-in-emacs/ > Apparently it doesn't occur to those people that doing full-time programming and tinkering with your editors in off-duty hours is not everyone's dream life. > A good reasonable set of modern features and lack of friction out of the box are important. Emacs people don't value that. Pity. They lost a formerly passionate user. Completely agree. I needed to setup a Rust environment in Emacs for work purposes and it was an awful experience, and even after all that I don't have a great Rust experience. Theoretically Emacs is the best editor, but in practice it takes hundreds of hours of configuration to get going and then you find out it's painfully slow. (To be fair though, I squeeze every drop of Elispy usefulness out of this program that I can.) My Emacs is at a state where I'm pretty happy with it, and I limit my time trying to improve it more - but it is so hard for me to recommend it to anyone.

loxias 4y ago

This is fantastic. Also, hilarious.

kazinator 4y ago

> But one thing moving collectors can do that non-moving ones can't is generational sequestration, that is, keeping the youngest cohort of Lisp values separated from older ones. This allows fast, intermediary cycles which only scan the "nursery" generation (the rationale being old objects are very likely to still be referenced). A non-moving collector must traverse the full set on each cycle since its allocations are interleaved. This is why Emacs bros are as eager to raise collection thresholds as motherboard jockeys are to overclock their BIOS. That is untrue. TXR Lisp has a generational GC, over non-moving heaps. The way this works is incredible. Are you sitting down? Okay, here is a pen and sign the non-disclosure agreement. Good! So, when baby objects are allocated, pointers to these objects are recorded in ... a nursery array. Not the objects themselves, just their pointers. During a fast garbage collection cycle (in the sweep phase) we just have to sweep through this array to find the unreachable babies all in a bunch, rather than looking for them through all the heap blocks.

gnufx 4y ago
> That is untrue. Indeed. Emacs actually got a preliminary port to the Boehm generational, incremental, mark-sweep collector many years ago, with a complete lack of interest in pursuing it. Also, Emacs conservative stack scanning came from SIOD via SCM https://people.delphiforums.com/gjc//siod.html#garbage https://people.delphiforums.com/gjc//siod.html#garbage
- zasdffaa 4y ago
  > Indeed. Emacs actually got a preliminary port to the Boehm generational, incremental, mark-sweep collector many years ago, with a complete lack of interest in pursuing it. Ja have a link? Asking because I've interacted with the devs and they are highly focused on getting emacs better. They would not reject it if it offered solid value. Also you have a link to this Boehm collector you mention as the only one I know of is the conservative one and I'd like to know more. TIA
  - rurban 4y ago
    The boehm GC is the most conservative one. And very slow.

Saint_Genet 4y ago

Yes, I'm going to start using a fork that exists solely due to personal grudges

rurban 4y ago

Unfortunately native-comp doesn't work