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This is something I wonder about Amazon/Google/Microsoft specifically: since they’re hosting basically every startup, how much are they able to leverage that da

by skohan 4y ago

This is something I wonder about Amazon/Google/Microsoft specifically: since they’re hosting basically every startup, how much are they able to leverage that data to their own benefit? AWS alone must have quite a detailed insight into which products and services are gaining traction just based on traffic data, or even how much they’re billing customers. To what extent are they able to leverage that?

throwaway_1928 4y ago
Given that Amazon is known for knocking off physical brands belonging to its 'retail partners' in its online store and then undercutting and outranking the originals [1], why would they not do the same with software hosted on AWS? A lot of AWS itself is just copied open source projects [2]. Google does the same thing with Yelp [3]. [1] https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/amazon-india-rigging/ https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/amazon-i... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/15/technology/amazon-aws-cloud-competition.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/15/technology/amazon-aws-clo... [3] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/01/technology/yelp-google-european-union-antitrust.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/01/technology/yelp-google-eu...
jedberg 4y ago
My friend worked in ops at Google, and they had super strict rules about accessing customer data (basically you never could) and strict monitoring around access. Even if someone gave you permission you still couldn't do it. You couldn't even access your own data with the internal tools. I had a similar experience with AWS when I worked at Netflix. We were trying to diagnose a really strange problem and I asked the engineer to look at our data from their tools to help me find it. They told me they couldn't access that data, that the tools blocked them. Then I tried to give them an SSH key for one of our instances and they told me they would get fired for doing that and could not under any circumstance log into our box. I assume MS has similar controls.
- skohan 4y ago
  But what I mean is you wouldn't even need to look at customer data. Just knowing how much traffic is going to which services would tell you a lot about a business. I don't know if they somehow obfuscate that as well.
- aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago
  Sure, the average employee doesn’t have access to this information. But do you seriously believe there isn’t a way for the inner circle (VPs and above) to do this kind of data mining covertly? Sheryl Sandberg was using her power to silence reporting on her partner’s sexual harrasment charges. Ebay execs were terrorizing a random couple. But no, they would never look into customer data! Pinky promise! Such a naïve way of thinking…
  - jjav 4y ago
    > Sure, the average employee doesn’t have access to this information. Exactly. There will be strict controls for nearly all employees, but the rules don't really apply to top executives. Anyone in IT or Infosec who has to try to enforce policies on top execs has encountered this in their career. If there is a substantial business advantage in seeing some data the company has, you can bet the execs are seeing that data.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
ozzythecat 4y ago
10+ year Amazon veteran. AWS has very strict rules around accessing any kind of customer data. All of Amazon has some pretty significant red tape and hurdles to get security clearance to launch any piece of working software. No, that won’t stop a shitty product manager from looking over sales data to figure out if a certain business is worth exploiting, but accessing AWS customer data is an entirely different ball game. It’s like: jumping over a fence vs trying to break into Area 51. I can almost guarantee that this egregious level of snooping on AWS customer data would never happen, and if somehow it did happen, it’s a nefarious individual with SIGNIFICANT authority to influence entire teams to extract, analyze, and get insights from this data. Again, I don’t think anyone at Amazons leadership is that insane to put their entire professional career in jeopardy, for something that someone would have a 100% guaranteed leak. The people working there aren’t exactly idiots who’d easily fall in line and do something like this. I’d like to be clear - I’m not defending Amazon. I no longer work there, and for what it’s worth, I think it’s a miserable place to work. A culture of back stabbing, inventing abstractions to drive promotions, people literally crying, disconnected leaders focused more on empire building to get promotions instead of doing what’s actually right for customers. Even then, the notion that AWS could line up teams, even on a secret project to do something so disdainful is an extreme stretch.
- skohan 4y ago
  But I don't mean they would have to access customer data. If, for instance, they just took a look at how much they were billing certain clients for bandwidth over time, they could already use that as a reasonable growth metric. Do you know for a fact that they don't do that? I know for instance they do something similar in terms of ripping off successful products on Amazon.com as Amazon Basics.
- minsc_and_boo 4y ago
  Amazon has been caught copying customer products to sell as their own before [1], and AWS has been accused more than once of doing the same [2]. It's a pattern of behavior from Amazon, and given their backstabbing, cut throat culture (that you mentioned) isn't it fair to say that it's possible for Amazon employees looking to get ahead at all costs would violate those strict rules? [1] https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/amazon-india-rigging/ https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/amazon-i... [2] https://archive.ph/M7hLF https://archive.ph/M7hLF
__derek__ 4y ago
The incentives aren't really there. There's a lot more money in selling infrastructure than in (poorly) copying some B2C application.
- skohan 4y ago
  What about for deciding which SAAS application to emulate as a first-party service?
  - __derek__ 4y ago
    That's fair, but I think it's also the case there: Salesforce, Twilio, and Snowflake are much better as customers than as competitors.

by skohan 4y ago

throwaway_1928 4y ago

Given that Amazon is known for knocking off physical brands belonging to its 'retail partners' in its online store and then undercutting and outranking the originals [1], why would they not do the same with software hosted on AWS? A lot of AWS itself is just copied open source projects [2]. Google does the same thing with Yelp [3]. [1] https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/amazon-india-rigging/ https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/amazon-i... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/15/technology/amazon-aws-cloud-competition.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/15/technology/amazon-aws-clo... [3] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/01/technology/yelp-google-european-union-antitrust.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/01/technology/yelp-google-eu...

jedberg 4y ago

My friend worked in ops at Google, and they had super strict rules about accessing customer data (basically you never could) and strict monitoring around access. Even if someone gave you permission you still couldn't do it. You couldn't even access your own data with the internal tools. I had a similar experience with AWS when I worked at Netflix. We were trying to diagnose a really strange problem and I asked the engineer to look at our data from their tools to help me find it. They told me they couldn't access that data, that the tools blocked them. Then I tried to give them an SSH key for one of our instances and they told me they would get fired for doing that and could not under any circumstance log into our box. I assume MS has similar controls.

skohan 4y ago
But what I mean is you wouldn't even need to look at customer data. Just knowing how much traffic is going to which services would tell you a lot about a business. I don't know if they somehow obfuscate that as well.
aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago
Sure, the average employee doesn’t have access to this information. But do you seriously believe there isn’t a way for the inner circle (VPs and above) to do this kind of data mining covertly? Sheryl Sandberg was using her power to silence reporting on her partner’s sexual harrasment charges. Ebay execs were terrorizing a random couple. But no, they would never look into customer data! Pinky promise! Such a naïve way of thinking…
- jjav 4y ago
  > Sure, the average employee doesn’t have access to this information. Exactly. There will be strict controls for nearly all employees, but the rules don't really apply to top executives. Anyone in IT or Infosec who has to try to enforce policies on top execs has encountered this in their career. If there is a substantial business advantage in seeing some data the company has, you can bet the execs are seeing that data.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

ozzythecat 4y ago

10+ year Amazon veteran. AWS has very strict rules around accessing any kind of customer data. All of Amazon has some pretty significant red tape and hurdles to get security clearance to launch any piece of working software. No, that won’t stop a shitty product manager from looking over sales data to figure out if a certain business is worth exploiting, but accessing AWS customer data is an entirely different ball game. It’s like: jumping over a fence vs trying to break into Area 51. I can almost guarantee that this egregious level of snooping on AWS customer data would never happen, and if somehow it did happen, it’s a nefarious individual with SIGNIFICANT authority to influence entire teams to extract, analyze, and get insights from this data. Again, I don’t think anyone at Amazons leadership is that insane to put their entire professional career in jeopardy, for something that someone would have a 100% guaranteed leak. The people working there aren’t exactly idiots who’d easily fall in line and do something like this. I’d like to be clear - I’m not defending Amazon. I no longer work there, and for what it’s worth, I think it’s a miserable place to work. A culture of back stabbing, inventing abstractions to drive promotions, people literally crying, disconnected leaders focused more on empire building to get promotions instead of doing what’s actually right for customers. Even then, the notion that AWS could line up teams, even on a secret project to do something so disdainful is an extreme stretch.

skohan 4y ago
But I don't mean they would have to access customer data. If, for instance, they just took a look at how much they were billing certain clients for bandwidth over time, they could already use that as a reasonable growth metric. Do you know for a fact that they don't do that? I know for instance they do something similar in terms of ripping off successful products on Amazon.com as Amazon Basics.
minsc_and_boo 4y ago
Amazon has been caught copying customer products to sell as their own before [1], and AWS has been accused more than once of doing the same [2]. It's a pattern of behavior from Amazon, and given their backstabbing, cut throat culture (that you mentioned) isn't it fair to say that it's possible for Amazon employees looking to get ahead at all costs would violate those strict rules? [1] https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/amazon-india-rigging/ https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/amazon-i... [2] https://archive.ph/M7hLF https://archive.ph/M7hLF

__derek__ 4y ago

The incentives aren't really there. There's a lot more money in selling infrastructure than in (poorly) copying some B2C application.

skohan 4y ago
What about for deciding which SAAS application to emulate as a first-party service?
- __derek__ 4y ago
  That's fair, but I think it's also the case there: Salesforce, Twilio, and Snowflake are much better as customers than as competitors.