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EV Batteries can be recycled, but finding a place that WILL is an entirely different proposition. Granted California just recently started (*), but that doesn't

EV Batteries can be recycled, but finding a place that WILL is an entirely different proposition. Granted California just recently started (*), but that doesn't do a hell of a lot of good to someone in Michigan, Missouri or New Mexico. As far as Batteries lasting 'decades', you won't get far with that argument when talking to Nissan Leaf owners who are having to replace their 9 year old batteries after 150K miles (**) I'm all for EV's, but proponents should remember EV's started somewhere too, with lots of the same skepticism thrown their way (expensive home systems to recharge their batteries, the cost of recharging networks, cold performance, etc...) As I see it, there's way too much of the same talk coming from the Battery EV crowd when they talk about Hydrogen. (*) https://www.protocol.com/bulletins/electric-vehicle-battery-recycling-california https://www.protocol.com/bulletins/electric-vehicle-battery-... (**) https://driving.ca/features/feature-story/the-big-looming-problem-with-old-evs-its-really-really-hard-to-change-the-battery https://driving.ca/features/feature-story/the-big-looming-pr...

vel0city 4y ago
Nissan Leaf batteries have some of the worst designs for a car as they're air-cooled instead of liquid-cooled. There's really little comparison of the quality of those packs compared to practically every other EV out there. > expensive home systems to recharge their batteries It cost <$200 to install a NEMA 14-50 outlet in my garage and the charger was included. > the cost of recharging network I've spent ~$225 in charging cost to drive my EV ~8,200mi so far (8200mi / 3.5mi/kWh * $0.096/kWh). A 25mpg car (seems about normal for a crossover) going that distance would use 328 gallons of gas (8200mi / 25mpg * $3.50/gal). If we just say gas was ~$3.50 on average over the last year, that means I would have spent $1,148 in gas driving the same amount. Even if you were to amortize the entire cost of the outlet install in the first year of driving (which, I mean, you wouldn't, that plug will be fine practically until the house gets torn down), you're still talking ~$425 versus ~$1,148. And that's just the first year of ownership, this difference then compounds even more every year after. Tell me again about how expensive $225 is compared to $1,148.
- davoneus 4y ago
  BEV Replacement costs: A 2020 Greencars report stated that a battery (66 kWh) for the Chevrolet Bolt battery costs roughly $16K USD. Similarly, GreenCars states that a Chevy Volt (16 kWh) costs roughly $4000. BMW i3: 22kwH, 8 year warranty, ~ 16K USD (various sources). Oh, I agree that replacing a full battery like the Leaf is rare, but the costs are what the costs are. Accidents happen, and the costs aren't small, regardless of the reason why it's being replaced. > the cost of recharging network. Great, I'm glad your BEV is that inexpensive to charge. However, how much did that charging STATION cost? Recent estimates for Tesla's are in the neighborhood of 250K USD each. I'd argue that they are getting built, and the economics are there, otherwise they wouldn't be built. However, when BEV's first started coming out you better believe the costs to develop that network of BEV stations was widely discussed (esp. irt who would pay for them). My point is that a lot of similar BS arguments are made against Hydrogen by BEV fan bois. I've no issue with the point that Hydrogen isn't here TODAY, and that some of the issues it faces are large. But to argue (as too many have done) that any investigation into Hydrogen is a waste of time, and that BEV's are the ONLY solution is both short-sighted and wrong.
  - vel0city 4y ago
    > Accidents happen And, accidents are covered by insurance, so not really a big worry to me. 100,000mi is like $11,000 in energy cost difference. Add a grand in oil changes, a couple of grand in other maintenance that I wouldn't need, and you're probably at $14,000 saved to make up for potentially needing a new battery at that point, so maybe about break even if your battery goes bad faster than expected. But maybe rebuilt batteries are cheaper in 8 years, who knows. > However, how much did that charging STATION cost? I already mentioned it, just shy of $200.
- api 4y ago
  > Nissan Leaf batteries have some of the worst designs for a car as they're air-cooled instead of liquid-cooled. Older Leaf models are worse than >2015-2016 models. They switched to a more heat tolerant and stable battery chemistry. I would avoid them though in very hot climates like Phoenix or Las Vegas.

vel0city 4y ago

Nissan Leaf batteries have some of the worst designs for a car as they're air-cooled instead of liquid-cooled. There's really little comparison of the quality of those packs compared to practically every other EV out there. > expensive home systems to recharge their batteries It cost <$200 to install a NEMA 14-50 outlet in my garage and the charger was included. > the cost of recharging network I've spent ~$225 in charging cost to drive my EV ~8,200mi so far (8200mi / 3.5mi/kWh * $0.096/kWh). A 25mpg car (seems about normal for a crossover) going that distance would use 328 gallons of gas (8200mi / 25mpg * $3.50/gal). If we just say gas was ~$3.50 on average over the last year, that means I would have spent $1,148 in gas driving the same amount. Even if you were to amortize the entire cost of the outlet install in the first year of driving (which, I mean, you wouldn't, that plug will be fine practically until the house gets torn down), you're still talking ~$425 versus ~$1,148. And that's just the first year of ownership, this difference then compounds even more every year after. Tell me again about how expensive $225 is compared to $1,148.

davoneus 4y ago
BEV Replacement costs: A 2020 Greencars report stated that a battery (66 kWh) for the Chevrolet Bolt battery costs roughly $16K USD. Similarly, GreenCars states that a Chevy Volt (16 kWh) costs roughly $4000. BMW i3: 22kwH, 8 year warranty, ~ 16K USD (various sources). Oh, I agree that replacing a full battery like the Leaf is rare, but the costs are what the costs are. Accidents happen, and the costs aren't small, regardless of the reason why it's being replaced. > the cost of recharging network. Great, I'm glad your BEV is that inexpensive to charge. However, how much did that charging STATION cost? Recent estimates for Tesla's are in the neighborhood of 250K USD each. I'd argue that they are getting built, and the economics are there, otherwise they wouldn't be built. However, when BEV's first started coming out you better believe the costs to develop that network of BEV stations was widely discussed (esp. irt who would pay for them). My point is that a lot of similar BS arguments are made against Hydrogen by BEV fan bois. I've no issue with the point that Hydrogen isn't here TODAY, and that some of the issues it faces are large. But to argue (as too many have done) that any investigation into Hydrogen is a waste of time, and that BEV's are the ONLY solution is both short-sighted and wrong.
- vel0city 4y ago
  > Accidents happen And, accidents are covered by insurance, so not really a big worry to me. 100,000mi is like $11,000 in energy cost difference. Add a grand in oil changes, a couple of grand in other maintenance that I wouldn't need, and you're probably at $14,000 saved to make up for potentially needing a new battery at that point, so maybe about break even if your battery goes bad faster than expected. But maybe rebuilt batteries are cheaper in 8 years, who knows. > However, how much did that charging STATION cost? I already mentioned it, just shy of $200.
api 4y ago
> Nissan Leaf batteries have some of the worst designs for a car as they're air-cooled instead of liquid-cooled. Older Leaf models are worse than >2015-2016 models. They switched to a more heat tolerant and stable battery chemistry. I would avoid them though in very hot climates like Phoenix or Las Vegas.