4 ms·

Batteries for electric cars need to be made of elements mined out of the earth which I hear is expensive and not great for the environment. Idk why hydrogen is

Batteries for electric cars need to be made of elements mined out of the earth which I hear is expensive and not great for the environment. Idk why hydrogen isn't practical as a fuel over gas.

api 4y ago
Batteries are largely recyclable and lithium does not need to be consumed constantly by a battery. Most modern Li-Ion batteries in cars have useful lifespans of a decade or more and they're getting better. With this you need to make a ton of these cartridges and then have a big delivery infrastructure to ship them around that uses a ton of power, way more than is consumed by the power grid shipping energy from a power plant into a battery.
- davoneus 4y ago
  EV Batteries can be recycled, but finding a place that WILL is an entirely different proposition. Granted California just recently started (*), but that doesn't do a hell of a lot of good to someone in Michigan, Missouri or New Mexico. As far as Batteries lasting 'decades', you won't get far with that argument when talking to Nissan Leaf owners who are having to replace their 9 year old batteries after 150K miles (**) I'm all for EV's, but proponents should remember EV's started somewhere too, with lots of the same skepticism thrown their way (expensive home systems to recharge their batteries, the cost of recharging networks, cold performance, etc...) As I see it, there's way too much of the same talk coming from the Battery EV crowd when they talk about Hydrogen. (*) https://www.protocol.com/bulletins/electric-vehicle-battery-recycling-california https://www.protocol.com/bulletins/electric-vehicle-battery-... (**) https://driving.ca/features/feature-story/the-big-looming-problem-with-old-evs-its-really-really-hard-to-change-the-battery https://driving.ca/features/feature-story/the-big-looming-pr...
  - vel0city 4y ago
    Nissan Leaf batteries have some of the worst designs for a car as they're air-cooled instead of liquid-cooled. There's really little comparison of the quality of those packs compared to practically every other EV out there. > expensive home systems to recharge their batteries It cost <$200 to install a NEMA 14-50 outlet in my garage and the charger was included. > the cost of recharging network I've spent ~$225 in charging cost to drive my EV ~8,200mi so far (8200mi / 3.5mi/kWh * $0.096/kWh). A 25mpg car (seems about normal for a crossover) going that distance would use 328 gallons of gas (8200mi / 25mpg * $3.50/gal). If we just say gas was ~$3.50 on average over the last year, that means I would have spent $1,148 in gas driving the same amount. Even if you were to amortize the entire cost of the outlet install in the first year of driving (which, I mean, you wouldn't, that plug will be fine practically until the house gets torn down), you're still talking ~$425 versus ~$1,148. And that's just the first year of ownership, this difference then compounds even more every year after. Tell me again about how expensive $225 is compared to $1,148.
    - davoneus 4y ago
      BEV Replacement costs: A 2020 Greencars report stated that a battery (66 kWh) for the Chevrolet Bolt battery costs roughly $16K USD. Similarly, GreenCars states that a Chevy Volt (16 kWh) costs roughly $4000. BMW i3: 22kwH, 8 year warranty, ~ 16K USD (various sources). Oh, I agree that replacing a full battery like the Leaf is rare, but the costs are what the costs are. Accidents happen, and the costs aren't small, regardless of the reason why it's being replaced. > the cost of recharging network. Great, I'm glad your BEV is that inexpensive to charge. However, how much did that charging STATION cost? Recent estimates for Tesla's are in the neighborhood of 250K USD each. I'd argue that they are getting built, and the economics are there, otherwise they wouldn't be built. However, when BEV's first started coming out you better believe the costs to develop that network of BEV stations was widely discussed (esp. irt who would pay for them). My point is that a lot of similar BS arguments are made against Hydrogen by BEV fan bois. I've no issue with the point that Hydrogen isn't here TODAY, and that some of the issues it faces are large. But to argue (as too many have done) that any investigation into Hydrogen is a waste of time, and that BEV's are the ONLY solution is both short-sighted and wrong.
      - vel0city 4y ago
        > Accidents happen And, accidents are covered by insurance, so not really a big worry to me. 100,000mi is like $11,000 in energy cost difference. Add a grand in oil changes, a couple of grand in other maintenance that I wouldn't need, and you're probably at $14,000 saved to make up for potentially needing a new battery at that point, so maybe about break even if your battery goes bad faster than expected. But maybe rebuilt batteries are cheaper in 8 years, who knows. > However, how much did that charging STATION cost? I already mentioned it, just shy of $200.
    - api 4y ago
      > Nissan Leaf batteries have some of the worst designs for a car as they're air-cooled instead of liquid-cooled. Older Leaf models are worse than >2015-2016 models. They switched to a more heat tolerant and stable battery chemistry. I would avoid them though in very hot climates like Phoenix or Las Vegas.
- wollsmoth 4y ago
  Yeah they can be recycled which is big. But I think we're headed into a world where we just need a whole hell of a lot more lithium then we're currently using. If all cars are eventually replaced with electric cars, that's a lot of batteries.
jansan 4y ago
Also, standardized cardridges could be swapped at fuel stations (which was the original business plan of Better Place, in case anyone can remember). Also, this would allow a service to charge cars parked in areas of high population density with a lack of charging stations. Cardridges could be handled like jerrycans, making range anxiety a thing of the past. THere are meny potential use cases where green hydrogen would make sense, even if people with calculators will tell you differntly.
- wollsmoth 4y ago
  Yeah if we could pop in hydrogen cartridges like batteries that'd be ideal. Currently hydrogen cars are fueled up like gas cars which limits their range. I don't know why they don't have replaceable cartridges.
- gaganyaan 4y ago
  I can charge my car anywhere that has electricity, which is essentially everywhere. I was able to charge my car to 100% while on vacation off of a regular wall outlet, dozens of miles from any gas station. Hydrogen is useless at this point. I don't want to have range anxiety with ICE/hydrogen and worry about jerrycans/cartridges. I want the confidence that I can refuel literally anywhere.
mountainriver 4y ago
Even though hydrogen is abundant in the universe, it’s actually fairly hard to capture on earth. Most hydrogen comes from fracking ironically
- wollsmoth 4y ago
  I believe it, but it's possible to get from water if you use electrolysis. But it's probably a high electricity cost. You'd be paying a lot of energy to make the energy more transportable in the form of hydrogen.

Batteries for electric cars need to be made of elements mined out of the earth which I hear is expensive and not great for the environment. Idk why hydrogen isn't practical as a fuel over gas.

api 4y ago

Batteries are largely recyclable and lithium does not need to be consumed constantly by a battery. Most modern Li-Ion batteries in cars have useful lifespans of a decade or more and they're getting better. With this you need to make a ton of these cartridges and then have a big delivery infrastructure to ship them around that uses a ton of power, way more than is consumed by the power grid shipping energy from a power plant into a battery.

davoneus 4y ago
EV Batteries can be recycled, but finding a place that WILL is an entirely different proposition. Granted California just recently started (*), but that doesn't do a hell of a lot of good to someone in Michigan, Missouri or New Mexico. As far as Batteries lasting 'decades', you won't get far with that argument when talking to Nissan Leaf owners who are having to replace their 9 year old batteries after 150K miles (**) I'm all for EV's, but proponents should remember EV's started somewhere too, with lots of the same skepticism thrown their way (expensive home systems to recharge their batteries, the cost of recharging networks, cold performance, etc...) As I see it, there's way too much of the same talk coming from the Battery EV crowd when they talk about Hydrogen. (*) https://www.protocol.com/bulletins/electric-vehicle-battery-recycling-california https://www.protocol.com/bulletins/electric-vehicle-battery-... (**) https://driving.ca/features/feature-story/the-big-looming-problem-with-old-evs-its-really-really-hard-to-change-the-battery https://driving.ca/features/feature-story/the-big-looming-pr...
- vel0city 4y ago
  Nissan Leaf batteries have some of the worst designs for a car as they're air-cooled instead of liquid-cooled. There's really little comparison of the quality of those packs compared to practically every other EV out there. > expensive home systems to recharge their batteries It cost <$200 to install a NEMA 14-50 outlet in my garage and the charger was included. > the cost of recharging network I've spent ~$225 in charging cost to drive my EV ~8,200mi so far (8200mi / 3.5mi/kWh * $0.096/kWh). A 25mpg car (seems about normal for a crossover) going that distance would use 328 gallons of gas (8200mi / 25mpg * $3.50/gal). If we just say gas was ~$3.50 on average over the last year, that means I would have spent $1,148 in gas driving the same amount. Even if you were to amortize the entire cost of the outlet install in the first year of driving (which, I mean, you wouldn't, that plug will be fine practically until the house gets torn down), you're still talking ~$425 versus ~$1,148. And that's just the first year of ownership, this difference then compounds even more every year after. Tell me again about how expensive $225 is compared to $1,148.
  - davoneus 4y ago
    BEV Replacement costs: A 2020 Greencars report stated that a battery (66 kWh) for the Chevrolet Bolt battery costs roughly $16K USD. Similarly, GreenCars states that a Chevy Volt (16 kWh) costs roughly $4000. BMW i3: 22kwH, 8 year warranty, ~ 16K USD (various sources). Oh, I agree that replacing a full battery like the Leaf is rare, but the costs are what the costs are. Accidents happen, and the costs aren't small, regardless of the reason why it's being replaced. > the cost of recharging network. Great, I'm glad your BEV is that inexpensive to charge. However, how much did that charging STATION cost? Recent estimates for Tesla's are in the neighborhood of 250K USD each. I'd argue that they are getting built, and the economics are there, otherwise they wouldn't be built. However, when BEV's first started coming out you better believe the costs to develop that network of BEV stations was widely discussed (esp. irt who would pay for them). My point is that a lot of similar BS arguments are made against Hydrogen by BEV fan bois. I've no issue with the point that Hydrogen isn't here TODAY, and that some of the issues it faces are large. But to argue (as too many have done) that any investigation into Hydrogen is a waste of time, and that BEV's are the ONLY solution is both short-sighted and wrong.
    - vel0city 4y ago
      > Accidents happen And, accidents are covered by insurance, so not really a big worry to me. 100,000mi is like $11,000 in energy cost difference. Add a grand in oil changes, a couple of grand in other maintenance that I wouldn't need, and you're probably at $14,000 saved to make up for potentially needing a new battery at that point, so maybe about break even if your battery goes bad faster than expected. But maybe rebuilt batteries are cheaper in 8 years, who knows. > However, how much did that charging STATION cost? I already mentioned it, just shy of $200.
  - api 4y ago
    > Nissan Leaf batteries have some of the worst designs for a car as they're air-cooled instead of liquid-cooled. Older Leaf models are worse than >2015-2016 models. They switched to a more heat tolerant and stable battery chemistry. I would avoid them though in very hot climates like Phoenix or Las Vegas.
wollsmoth 4y ago
Yeah they can be recycled which is big. But I think we're headed into a world where we just need a whole hell of a lot more lithium then we're currently using. If all cars are eventually replaced with electric cars, that's a lot of batteries.

jansan 4y ago

Also, standardized cardridges could be swapped at fuel stations (which was the original business plan of Better Place, in case anyone can remember). Also, this would allow a service to charge cars parked in areas of high population density with a lack of charging stations. Cardridges could be handled like jerrycans, making range anxiety a thing of the past. THere are meny potential use cases where green hydrogen would make sense, even if people with calculators will tell you differntly.

wollsmoth 4y ago
Yeah if we could pop in hydrogen cartridges like batteries that'd be ideal. Currently hydrogen cars are fueled up like gas cars which limits their range. I don't know why they don't have replaceable cartridges.
gaganyaan 4y ago
I can charge my car anywhere that has electricity, which is essentially everywhere. I was able to charge my car to 100% while on vacation off of a regular wall outlet, dozens of miles from any gas station. Hydrogen is useless at this point. I don't want to have range anxiety with ICE/hydrogen and worry about jerrycans/cartridges. I want the confidence that I can refuel literally anywhere.

mountainriver 4y ago

Even though hydrogen is abundant in the universe, it’s actually fairly hard to capture on earth. Most hydrogen comes from fracking ironically

wollsmoth 4y ago
I believe it, but it's possible to get from water if you use electrolysis. But it's probably a high electricity cost. You'd be paying a lot of energy to make the energy more transportable in the form of hydrogen.