31 ms·
As a Dalit myself, I wrote a Dalit 101 for non Indian audience. https://thelit.substack.com/p/dalit-101 https://thelit.substack.com/p/dalit-101
by thelit 4y ago
As a Dalit myself, I wrote a Dalit 101 for non Indian audience.
https://thelit.substack.com/p/dalit-101 https://thelit.substack.com/p/dalit-101
- thebeardisred 4y agoThanks for writing that!
- okdood64 4y agoHey there! Thanks for writing this. One question I've always had is, how do you know you're Dalit if you were born outside of India? How do others? Especially, say, when meeting other Indians in some tech company in the US?
- thelit 4y agoIf you’re a Dalit, you’d know. As I mention in the post, membership to a caste is granted by birth. If both your parents are Dalit, you’re a Dalit too. How do others know: it’s not obvious. Dalits either change their last name to something common enough to not have any caste indicator. They’d avoid any discussion on caste. So effectively, they hide but there are some who don’t and keep their last name. Still, not every other Indian could tell, but a more caste conscious Indian who belongs to the same region can tell. On top of it, it’s common among Indians to just plainly ask other what their caste is.
- devnonymous 4y agoNote that there are other 'cues' as well that casteists use to identify your caste, such as the food you eat (veg/non-veg), the social rituals/ceremonies or religious practices you engage in. In fact, you'd see enough Brahmins (in the US!) wear the scared thread[1] and embrace the entire identity of being at the 'top' of the caste system that knowing that you are a non-brahmin is sufficient for them to treat you as a Dalit. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanayana https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanayana
- gabereiser 4y agoWe have that same view in software engineering as well. s/Brahmins/FAANGs and s/Dalit/Non-FAANG. Not saying it's everywhere but it exists, even on these very forums. How is one from a coding school or bootcamp ever to be seen as an equal to those that took a traditional route? For the most part, people treat people equally but I've seen this kind of behavior on here and in person on a few occasions.
- adiM 4y agoThe difference with caste is that caste is inherited. If you wear rose-coloured glasses, you can assume that hiring at FAANG is merit based and a non-FAANG can move to FAANG if they want. That’s not possible with caste.
- rajup 4y agoWrong, I wear the thread the same reason a Sikh wears a turban or a Muslim woman wears a niqab/burka. Wearing a sacred thread has about as much relation to condoning/accepting caste discrimination as wearing a niqab has to terrorism, but these kinds of bigoted ignorant comments are exactly why Google was right in not allowing the talk to happen.
- whimsicalism 4y agoReverse caste-ism
- rajup 4y agoWe seem to be on the path to it for sure :)
- bongoman37 4y ago[dead]
- senthil_rajasek 4y agoThe sacred thread is exclusive to Brahmins and a distinct caste marker. Non-Brahmin Hindus are not allowed to wear the sacred thread. Turbans and burqa do not have such intra-religious restriction. Comparing the sacred thread to turbans/ burqas is a false comparison.
- pretendscholar 4y agoSorry if this is a sensitive topic but why don't you just say you are a brahmin/christian/muslim? How would they know?
- tthun 4y agoBelieve it or not .. casts are carried by Christian [0] and Muslim families converted generations ago .. upper cast by choice and forced on lower cast [1] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_South_Asian_Christians https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_South_Asi... [1] https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/kerala/kevins-murder-is-honour-killing-says-kerala-court/article61579536.ece https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/kerala/kevins-murder-...
- dheera 4y ago> plainly ask other what their caste is Why do they do this, and what do they hope to gain out of asking that question? Related question -- I would have thought that high-tech Indians in Silicon Valley would detest a system like that. Is that not the case?
- MauroIksem 4y agoWhat makes you think that? People everywhere try to get an advantage on others why would they suddenly change in silicon valley? If anything, i think it would be worse because it's so competitive.
- gigglesupstairs 4y ago> Why do they do this, and what do they hope to gain out of asking that question? Answer is a bit twisted. Lot many just ask as a innate curiosity and to find a cultural base to connect with someone new and not exactly for any sinister reasons. There are like thousands of sub religions, cultures, languages in India that it helps people sometimes to know which caste a person belongs to level with them. Not exactly something to be proud of but happens. At the same time, lot many are orthodox and do ask to get a perspective into someone’s personality and culture to find a stereotype they can base their decisions on - for ex- inside interviews, business meetings etc.
- devnonymous 4y agoIf you were born outside of India, it would be pretty much like any other national /racial identity -- inferred from family (based on family names for instance). Like mentioned in the GPs write-up: > Unlike race, it’s easier to hide your caste, especially in a new country. Many dalits change their official last name to something common enough that it’s hard to identify them.
- retrac 4y agoThere's touches of that elsewhere too (hiding race or ethnicity with a name change.) I have an extremely unusual surname in Canada, and most North Americans don't recognize it as European in origin, which has led to assumptions in the past. My grandfather said he considered changing it to something English in the 50s, but ultimately he kept it. I know that, at least historically, some Christian Arabs, Jewish people, probably others, have adopted "white" names upon immigrating, too.
- colechristensen 4y agoQuite a few essentially had Americanized (or for Canada... idk, Canadized? Anglicized? somebody tell me the best word for that :) ) names forced on them upon immigration. My mother's ancestral Norwegian last name wouldn't have worked particularly well in English, my own last name of Danish origin survived unscathed for obvious reasons.
- kalimanzaro 4y agoI used to wonder if the name Yingling was Asian, but it turns out to be the same as Yuengling the beer, which is an odd but phonetically correct rendering of Jungling with the umlaut. ("Youngling")
- richardfey 4y agoWell written! Thanks
- swayvil 4y agoWhat if you just lie and tell everybody that you're brahmin (or whatever the alpha caste is)? Do you need identifying papers? Is there a big market for forgeries?
- vijaybritto 4y agoI wish it were that easy. First of all lying like that is near impossible unless you know every single thing done in a Brahmin household, you'll be caught eventually. In a workplace setting, you might be boycotted but if this were in India, you have a high chance of getting murdered brutally. Dalits get killed for just riding a horse, walking through upper caste residential streets and many normal things. In this scale a Brahmin name would be deadly
- swayvil 4y ago
- dotopotoro 4y agoMurdered by which caste? Allegedly of course. Brahmin or somebody else?
- vijaybritto 4y agoGreat question. It will be any upper caste who are above Dalits. There is no one perpetrator here but all of them. The main point to note is that the caste hierarchy is sacred and will be enforced by endogamy (arranged marriages) and other occupational rules. You will be shown your place very very quickly. Love marriages are quite deadly and parents killing their own children and the lower caste grooms are extremely common. You can search for "honour killings in India". Please read "Annihilation of Caste" by Dr. B.R. Ambedkar. Its around 50 pages of an undelivered speech, later published. If you want to learn about caste, please make sure not to ask for explanations from an upper caste person. This is extremely important!! Example of this enforcement: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-15997648 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-15997648
- buryat 4y agothanks for writing this
- rramadass 4y agoYour write-up is quite simplistic and hence is very much open to misinterpretation by non-Indians. I highly suggest that you consult the works of Patrick Olivelle and Susan Bayly to get at the real History of "Caste" (Varna vs. Jati etc.). That way you can present what is actually stated in the Hindu Scriptures vs. Their misinterpretation and later practice within Indian Society. Excerpt from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_(Hinduism) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_(Hinduism) : Recent scholarship suggests that the discussion of varna as well as untouchable outcastes in these texts does not resemble the modern era caste system in India. Patrick Olivelle, a professor of Sanskrit and Indian Religions and credited with modern translations of Vedic literature, Dharma-sutras and Dharma-shastras, states that ancient and medieval Indian texts do not support the ritual pollution, purity-impurity as the basis for varna system. According to Olivelle, purity-impurity is discussed in the Dharma-shastra texts, but only in the context of the individual's moral, ritual and biological pollution (eating certain kinds of food such as meat, urination and defecation). In his review of Dharma-shastras, Olivelle writes, "we see no instance when a term of pure/impure is used with reference to a group of individuals or a varna or caste". The only mention of impurity in the Shastra texts from the 1st millennium is about people who commit grievous sins and thereby fall out of their varna. These, writes Olivelle, are called "fallen people" and impure, declaring that they be ostracised. Olivelle adds that the overwhelming focus in matters relating to purity/impurity in the Dharma-sastra texts concerns "individuals irrespective of their varna affiliation" and all four varnas could attain purity or impurity by the content of their character, ethical intent, actions, innocence or ignorance, stipulations, and ritualistic behaviours. Olivelle states: Dumont is correct in his assessment that the ideology of varna is not based on purity. If it were we should expect to find at least some comment on the relative purity and impurity of the different vamas. What is even more important is that the ideology of purity and impurity that emerges from the Dharma literature is concerned with the individual and not with groups, with purification and not with purity, and lends little support to a theory which makes relative purity the foundation of social stratification.
- mission_failed 4y agoCaste-splaining
- known 4y ago
- lumpoi 4y agoI am not sure if you have rad Beautiful Tree by Dharampal. It has interesting info about Indian education during and before british occupation. There were large number of shudras and other castes(which he assumes in dalits) involved in various subjects. Like Malabar data from 1821, other castes where marjorly learning about Medicines, Astronomy. Which is kind of unheard before independence.
- kadayadi 4y agoMalabar data is not proper one to study this because the Malabar region or present Kerala region didn't have a proper 4 caste system. Anyone, not Brahmin was Shudra and hence the rigid system like the north was never there. When north had manusmirthi the one in Kerala was Shankarasmrithi that had only Brahmin and the rest Shudras.
- ummonk 4y agoTwo quibbles. First, the Rigveda itself didn't separate castes into hierarchical varnas - that was more of a later vedic thing. Second, jatis aren't exactly sub-varnas. Some jatis span across varnas (e.g. because their members engage in both farming (shudra) and soldiering (kshatriya)), and particularly in South India the jati system exists even though the varna system has only been incompletely applied (a lot of regions in South India don't really have any defined varnas outside of Brahmins).
- awsrocks 4y ago
- aws_ls 4y ago"The challenge though is to force a smile when your Indian coworkers use casteist slurs because you know it will be worse if they find out." I feel sad and sorry.
- ddingus 4y agoThank you. I know almost nothing about all this. Like all unjust discrimination, this one triggers on things one has no control over. Doing that to others is completely unacceptable.