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They don't have to weigh in. But, if few Indian managers discriminate against Dalits, how are their non-Indian peers and managers supposed to correct that discr

They don't have to weigh in. But, if few Indian managers discriminate against Dalits, how are their non-Indian peers and managers supposed to correct that discrimination if they don't even understand what are castes? This isn't political, it's professional: US laws and Google policies forbid discrimination, and so people need to be trained in understanding what discrimination looks like. You don't categorize "security awareness training" as political either.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> US laws and Google policies forbid discrimination Does U.S. law have precedent for discussing caste? There is a case for typing the lowest-caste Indians, the Dalits this cancelled talk was meant to discuss, as a race and thus protected class under U.S. and Californian law. But I don't know if this is legally precedented.
- toper-centage 4y ago
  Isn't racism fundamentally a type of caste/class discrimination? Not as well defined castes like seen in India, but "black people" are discriminated as a result of slavery, "asians" as a result of mass immigration. To the point where in many countries you were not allowed or able to marry outside your "caste", had different rights than locals/whites etc. People today don't feel racism as caste discrimination, but to say that there's no precedent in the West is being pedantic IMO.
  - thereddaikon 4y ago
    The word you are looking for is bigotry. That's the generalized equivalent of racism. Thing is, bigotry in general isn't illegal. Specific kinds of bigotry are in regards to hiring though. Racism is one of them. But caste isn't. A lawyer might be able to make the claim that it would fall under "national origin or ancestry" since, to my knowledge, caste is hereditary and hard to change. But if so then that makes these kinds of talks all the more important. Because it helps Americans recognize a form of illegal discrimination they would otherwise not recognize.
    - kbelder 4y ago
      Caste is inherited and runs in bloodlines. Why wouldn't it be considered racism?
      - rayiner 4y ago
        Being hereditary is necessary but not sufficient for a grouping to constitute a race. Blond hair and blue eyes are hereditary, but blue eyed people aren’t a different race. “Race” is a fuzzy concept but generally distinguishes people of different ethnic origins. Indian castes aren’t different races—low caste and high caste Indians can come from the same ethnic group. It’s more like the European distinction between nobility and commoners. That’s also hereditary, but it doesn’t define different races.
        selimthegrim 4y ago
        Proportion of steppe/Aryan origin varies among caste groups (some places as you go farther from cow belt that were subject to Brahminization or like Kashmir are exceptions to this, however this doesn’t mean all Hindus in Kashmir were Brahmins regardless of what certain recent films might claim on the subject) Physiognomy as some of the British attempted is not a golf way to go about studying it (see Native American skulls as to why, brachycephaly etc can be influenced by environment over generations) Markers like sickle cell trait (which I possess incidentally) are almost always found among aboriginal/tribal lower castes . It seems that story of “dasas” and Nishadas largely matches up with being forced into lower caste hood or untouchability as a result of losing wars.
      - labcomputer 4y ago
        It might not be considered "racism", as such, in the same way that discrimination against women is not necessarily racism. But it certainly seems like caste would be a protected characteristic under California law--"Race, Color, National Origin, or Ancestry" are protected characteristics. Caste seems to obviously fall under ancestry.
      - imbnwa 4y ago
        'Racism' is absolutely a caste system, since the fundamental point of a caste system is to proportion resource and opportunity between breeding pools, however devised those are. The differentiator is simply the terms used to draw these boundaries. Which matters because different terms, say religious terms vs medico-scientific terms, resource different graphs for further narrativization. Jewish folk from Europe know full well the difference between being narrativized according to religious lines and according to medico-scientific lines, neither even approaching something like true or right. Black folk in America have been hounded about their medico-scientific distinction from the get-go, right down to the resurgence of heritable IQ and multi-regional emergence theory today.
- thinkcontext 4y ago
  CA brought a civil rights case against Cisco for caste discrimination. I believe its still in progress. https://thewire.in/caste/cisco-case-caste-discrimination-silicon-valley-ambedkar-organisations https://thewire.in/caste/cisco-case-caste-discrimination-sil...
- rayiner 4y ago
  Arguably it’s not protected right? Caste is more or less like the old European class distinction between royals and commoners. Nobody contends that lower caste people are a different race than higher caste people. (And I would argue it would be problematic to try and reframe caste distinctions in racial terms.) As far as I know, class discrimination isn’t illegal in the US.
  - labcomputer 4y ago
    Not under "race", but CA law lists "ancestry" as a protected characteristic. I'm having some trouble understanding how caste discrimination is anything other than ancestry discrimination.
    - rayiner 4y ago
      That’s a good point—I was thinking of federal law.
bko 4y ago
> But, if few Indian managers discriminate against Dalits, how are their non-Indian peers and managers supposed to correct that discrimination if they don't even understand what are castes? Shouldn't the managers and decision makers be aware of the local customs, cultural issues and employment laws in the region they manage? You really think it's appropriate for some white American manager to lecture his Indian subordinates after spending a few hours in training?
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > the local customs, cultural issues and employment laws in the region they manage This article concerns caste discrimination in the United States.
  - MomoXenosaga 4y ago
    Amusingly caste discrimination is illegal in India too but laws alone rarely change culture it needs a healthy doses of death and destruction.
- rsstack 4y ago
  That's their job. If they don't like it, they aren't fit to do it. If managers could only come from the exact same background as their subordinates, globalization would be screwed.
- MontyCarloHall 4y ago
  >You really think it's appropriate for some white American manager to lecture his Indian subordinates after spending a few hours in training? Yes. Ethnic discrimination is absolutely unacceptable in any American workplace, full stop. There is no room for cultural relativism here. To imply otherwise (e.g. “it would be inappropriate for a non-Indian manager to tell off their subordinate for being caste-ist”) is itself extremely racist.
  - alex_smart 4y ago
    How exactly would you determine that a manager is acting against an employee under them due to an internal caste bias and not due to lack of performance or insubordination (or whatever other valid grounds there are for acting against an employee)?
smugma 4y ago
Discrimination against protected classes is illegal. For example, until somewhat recently it was legal to discriminate based on someone’s sexual orientation (don’t ask, don’t tell). Case law matters, and caste seems to not have clear answers as to whether it qualifies. If caste is considered equivalent to race, it would.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

> US laws and Google policies forbid discrimination Does U.S. law have precedent for discussing caste? There is a case for typing the lowest-caste Indians, the Dalits this cancelled talk was meant to discuss, as a race and thus protected class under U.S. and Californian law. But I don't know if this is legally precedented.

toper-centage 4y ago
Isn't racism fundamentally a type of caste/class discrimination? Not as well defined castes like seen in India, but "black people" are discriminated as a result of slavery, "asians" as a result of mass immigration. To the point where in many countries you were not allowed or able to marry outside your "caste", had different rights than locals/whites etc. People today don't feel racism as caste discrimination, but to say that there's no precedent in the West is being pedantic IMO.
- thereddaikon 4y ago
  The word you are looking for is bigotry. That's the generalized equivalent of racism. Thing is, bigotry in general isn't illegal. Specific kinds of bigotry are in regards to hiring though. Racism is one of them. But caste isn't. A lawyer might be able to make the claim that it would fall under "national origin or ancestry" since, to my knowledge, caste is hereditary and hard to change. But if so then that makes these kinds of talks all the more important. Because it helps Americans recognize a form of illegal discrimination they would otherwise not recognize.
  - kbelder 4y ago
    Caste is inherited and runs in bloodlines. Why wouldn't it be considered racism?
    - rayiner 4y ago
      Being hereditary is necessary but not sufficient for a grouping to constitute a race. Blond hair and blue eyes are hereditary, but blue eyed people aren’t a different race. “Race” is a fuzzy concept but generally distinguishes people of different ethnic origins. Indian castes aren’t different races—low caste and high caste Indians can come from the same ethnic group. It’s more like the European distinction between nobility and commoners. That’s also hereditary, but it doesn’t define different races.
      - selimthegrim 4y ago
        Proportion of steppe/Aryan origin varies among caste groups (some places as you go farther from cow belt that were subject to Brahminization or like Kashmir are exceptions to this, however this doesn’t mean all Hindus in Kashmir were Brahmins regardless of what certain recent films might claim on the subject) Physiognomy as some of the British attempted is not a golf way to go about studying it (see Native American skulls as to why, brachycephaly etc can be influenced by environment over generations) Markers like sickle cell trait (which I possess incidentally) are almost always found among aboriginal/tribal lower castes . It seems that story of “dasas” and Nishadas largely matches up with being forced into lower caste hood or untouchability as a result of losing wars.
    - labcomputer 4y ago
      It might not be considered "racism", as such, in the same way that discrimination against women is not necessarily racism. But it certainly seems like caste would be a protected characteristic under California law--"Race, Color, National Origin, or Ancestry" are protected characteristics. Caste seems to obviously fall under ancestry.
    - imbnwa 4y ago
      'Racism' is absolutely a caste system, since the fundamental point of a caste system is to proportion resource and opportunity between breeding pools, however devised those are. The differentiator is simply the terms used to draw these boundaries. Which matters because different terms, say religious terms vs medico-scientific terms, resource different graphs for further narrativization. Jewish folk from Europe know full well the difference between being narrativized according to religious lines and according to medico-scientific lines, neither even approaching something like true or right. Black folk in America have been hounded about their medico-scientific distinction from the get-go, right down to the resurgence of heritable IQ and multi-regional emergence theory today.
thinkcontext 4y ago
CA brought a civil rights case against Cisco for caste discrimination. I believe its still in progress. https://thewire.in/caste/cisco-case-caste-discrimination-silicon-valley-ambedkar-organisations https://thewire.in/caste/cisco-case-caste-discrimination-sil...
rayiner 4y ago
Arguably it’s not protected right? Caste is more or less like the old European class distinction between royals and commoners. Nobody contends that lower caste people are a different race than higher caste people. (And I would argue it would be problematic to try and reframe caste distinctions in racial terms.) As far as I know, class discrimination isn’t illegal in the US.
- labcomputer 4y ago
  Not under "race", but CA law lists "ancestry" as a protected characteristic. I'm having some trouble understanding how caste discrimination is anything other than ancestry discrimination.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    That’s a good point—I was thinking of federal law.

bko 4y ago

> But, if few Indian managers discriminate against Dalits, how are their non-Indian peers and managers supposed to correct that discrimination if they don't even understand what are castes? Shouldn't the managers and decision makers be aware of the local customs, cultural issues and employment laws in the region they manage? You really think it's appropriate for some white American manager to lecture his Indian subordinates after spending a few hours in training?

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> the local customs, cultural issues and employment laws in the region they manage This article concerns caste discrimination in the United States.
- MomoXenosaga 4y ago
  Amusingly caste discrimination is illegal in India too but laws alone rarely change culture it needs a healthy doses of death and destruction.
rsstack 4y ago
That's their job. If they don't like it, they aren't fit to do it. If managers could only come from the exact same background as their subordinates, globalization would be screwed.
MontyCarloHall 4y ago
>You really think it's appropriate for some white American manager to lecture his Indian subordinates after spending a few hours in training? Yes. Ethnic discrimination is absolutely unacceptable in any American workplace, full stop. There is no room for cultural relativism here. To imply otherwise (e.g. “it would be inappropriate for a non-Indian manager to tell off their subordinate for being caste-ist”) is itself extremely racist.
- alex_smart 4y ago
  How exactly would you determine that a manager is acting against an employee under them due to an internal caste bias and not due to lack of performance or insubordination (or whatever other valid grounds there are for acting against an employee)?

smugma 4y ago

Discrimination against protected classes is illegal. For example, until somewhat recently it was legal to discriminate based on someone’s sexual orientation (don’t ask, don’t tell). Case law matters, and caste seems to not have clear answers as to whether it qualifies. If caste is considered equivalent to race, it would.