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Its not like those schools are demonstrably better its that those schools are exclusive and provide social connections to elite social classes. The whole point

Its not like those schools are demonstrably better its that those schools are exclusive and provide social connections to elite social classes. The whole point of them existing is to be exclusive more than it is to educate.

jjeaff 4y ago
I don't think there is any proof that the elite connections make any difference on average. The Dale and Krueger study in fact found evidence that there was no statistical difference in lifetime income for ivy league grads vs less elite schools when controlling for factors like sat scores. In fact, they compared people who were accepted but did not go to an ivy league vs those who did go. Other subsequent studies by others have seemed to bear that out as well. So I don't even think that too much can be made of the connections one might make at elite universities.
- derbOac 4y ago
  I don't know. Just as one example, I've seen here on HN ads for positions that explicitly mention (in not so many words) that they're only looking for grads from elite colleges. The UK just codified this into visa law. Income is a fuzzy thing, and distinct from opportunities. I'm always looking for empirical data to bear on a question, so the studies you're mentioning are important. But at the same time I'm sort of suspicious that something's missing from those studies based on prima facie examples I've encountered several times in my life.
  - inter_netuser 4y ago
    > The UK just codified this into visa law. Really? Is there a list?
    - derbOac 4y ago
      Effectively, yes. The list isn't given directly, but is defined indirectly, explicitly in terms of other lists. The university has to be in the top 50 of two or more of certain ranking lists (which are specified): https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/may/30/visa-scheme-graduates-top-50-non-uk-universities-high-potential-individual https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/may/30/visa-schem...
    - mmarq 4y ago
      https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/high-potential-individual-visa-global-universities-list/high-potential-individual-visa-global-universities-list-2020 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/high-potential-in...
  - mmarq 4y ago
    > The UK just codified this into visa law. It’s going to be very funny when they realise that nobody with a Harvard or a ETH Zurich degree is going to spend 3K£ for the privilege of moving to the UK, where they will earn a third of what they would be making home. Then the government will water it down as they did with salary requirements, finally they’ll blame the “talent” shortage on the EU and on millennials eating avocados.
    - dfadsadsf 4y ago
      That’s just not true. London is huge talent magnet and salaries/TC at top tech companies are about 75-80% of Bay Area and comparable to Zurich. London is also fun place to live compared to cultural wasteland of bay area. 3k visa fee is frankly irrelevant when you consider full cost of moving.
      - asdadsdad 4y ago
        that's ok, but then you have 2 years of visa and have to find something else to stay.
      - 908B64B197 4y ago
        > London is huge talent magnet and salaries/TC at top tech companies are about 75-80% of Bay Area and comparable to Zurich Citation needed. I've seen London attract Europeans but a lot more people are trying to jump from London to the Bay Area than the opposite. > compared to cultural wasteland of bay area. Ironically, there are two prominent Bay Area schools listed in the special interest list from the UK government. [0] [0] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/high-potential-individual-visa-global-universities-list/high-potential-individual-visa-global-universities-list-2021 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/high-potential-in...
        dfadsadsf 4y ago
        Big tech offices in London are chock full of Americans - especially at staff/sr manager and above level Both Stanford and Berkley are isolated from areas they are located in and you have to be student to enjoy cultural life inside. You may visit art gallery/museum in Stanford (it's nice!) but that's pretty much it.
  - jjeaff 4y ago
    And yet the majority of jobs don't require that. Was their any indication that those jobs that do require an elite education actually pay better than those that don't?
harmon 4y ago
I disagree. I went to a "tier 3" school for undergrad and then "elite" schools for post-graduate education. The difference in course and instruction quality, experience level of the professors, student ambition, and caliber of student between the classes of schools was night and day. The "mediocre" undergrads I met during my post-graduate education were as good as the best people I went to school with for undergrad.
- gameman144 4y ago
  This is super interesting, since I had the opposite experience: I learned much more and received more personalized instruction and high-quality material at my low-status undergrad than I did during my top-ten graduate education by a wide margin.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- pcmoney 4y ago
  There is a much larger gulf between Tier 3 and large state flagship research university than large state school and a perceived “elite” school (Some Ivies, Stanford, CMU etc). But TBH some of the best education I have ever received in terms of teaching quality came out of a community college.
IshKebab 4y ago
I don't know about Harvard but Oxbridge is definitely demonstrably better. The courses are more advanced than other unis and where else do you get 1:2 tutorials with world class professors? They basically always come in the top 3 in UK university rankings. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rankings_of_universities_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rankings_of_universities_in_th... The networking is not a consideration for the majority of undergrads (aspiring politicians are the obvious exception). Prestige is definitely a factor. But that prestige isn't undeserved.
Syzygies 4y ago
Admissions is an imprecise art. While the majority of elite school students make do with status and connections, some go on to attain global stature. Global stature is virtually impossible to attain, an unrealistic goal. The world is actually a small place, and global stature is a reasonable goal within one's domain of interest. Both views are indisputably true. One tends to believe the view held by people around you. While it's easy to become a student at an elite school, it's hard to become a professor at an elite school. These are people who have "cracked the code" and naturally see the world as a small place in which one can excel. Most students will never "crack this code", but those in direct contact with good role models are more likely to do so.

jjeaff 4y ago

I don't think there is any proof that the elite connections make any difference on average. The Dale and Krueger study in fact found evidence that there was no statistical difference in lifetime income for ivy league grads vs less elite schools when controlling for factors like sat scores. In fact, they compared people who were accepted but did not go to an ivy league vs those who did go. Other subsequent studies by others have seemed to bear that out as well. So I don't even think that too much can be made of the connections one might make at elite universities.

derbOac 4y ago
I don't know. Just as one example, I've seen here on HN ads for positions that explicitly mention (in not so many words) that they're only looking for grads from elite colleges. The UK just codified this into visa law. Income is a fuzzy thing, and distinct from opportunities. I'm always looking for empirical data to bear on a question, so the studies you're mentioning are important. But at the same time I'm sort of suspicious that something's missing from those studies based on prima facie examples I've encountered several times in my life.
- inter_netuser 4y ago
  > The UK just codified this into visa law. Really? Is there a list?
  - derbOac 4y ago
    Effectively, yes. The list isn't given directly, but is defined indirectly, explicitly in terms of other lists. The university has to be in the top 50 of two or more of certain ranking lists (which are specified): https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/may/30/visa-scheme-graduates-top-50-non-uk-universities-high-potential-individual https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/may/30/visa-schem...
  - mmarq 4y ago
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/high-potential-individual-visa-global-universities-list/high-potential-individual-visa-global-universities-list-2020 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/high-potential-in...
- mmarq 4y ago
  > The UK just codified this into visa law. It’s going to be very funny when they realise that nobody with a Harvard or a ETH Zurich degree is going to spend 3K£ for the privilege of moving to the UK, where they will earn a third of what they would be making home. Then the government will water it down as they did with salary requirements, finally they’ll blame the “talent” shortage on the EU and on millennials eating avocados.
  - dfadsadsf 4y ago
    That’s just not true. London is huge talent magnet and salaries/TC at top tech companies are about 75-80% of Bay Area and comparable to Zurich. London is also fun place to live compared to cultural wasteland of bay area. 3k visa fee is frankly irrelevant when you consider full cost of moving.
    - asdadsdad 4y ago
      that's ok, but then you have 2 years of visa and have to find something else to stay.
    - 908B64B197 4y ago
      > London is huge talent magnet and salaries/TC at top tech companies are about 75-80% of Bay Area and comparable to Zurich Citation needed. I've seen London attract Europeans but a lot more people are trying to jump from London to the Bay Area than the opposite. > compared to cultural wasteland of bay area. Ironically, there are two prominent Bay Area schools listed in the special interest list from the UK government. [0] [0] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/high-potential-individual-visa-global-universities-list/high-potential-individual-visa-global-universities-list-2021 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/high-potential-in...
      - dfadsadsf 4y ago
        Big tech offices in London are chock full of Americans - especially at staff/sr manager and above level Both Stanford and Berkley are isolated from areas they are located in and you have to be student to enjoy cultural life inside. You may visit art gallery/museum in Stanford (it's nice!) but that's pretty much it.
- jjeaff 4y ago
  And yet the majority of jobs don't require that. Was their any indication that those jobs that do require an elite education actually pay better than those that don't?

harmon 4y ago

I disagree. I went to a "tier 3" school for undergrad and then "elite" schools for post-graduate education. The difference in course and instruction quality, experience level of the professors, student ambition, and caliber of student between the classes of schools was night and day. The "mediocre" undergrads I met during my post-graduate education were as good as the best people I went to school with for undergrad.

gameman144 4y ago
This is super interesting, since I had the opposite experience: I learned much more and received more personalized instruction and high-quality material at my low-status undergrad than I did during my top-ten graduate education by a wide margin.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
pcmoney 4y ago
There is a much larger gulf between Tier 3 and large state flagship research university than large state school and a perceived “elite” school (Some Ivies, Stanford, CMU etc). But TBH some of the best education I have ever received in terms of teaching quality came out of a community college.

IshKebab 4y ago

I don't know about Harvard but Oxbridge is definitely demonstrably better. The courses are more advanced than other unis and where else do you get 1:2 tutorials with world class professors? They basically always come in the top 3 in UK university rankings. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rankings_of_universities_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rankings_of_universities_in_th... The networking is not a consideration for the majority of undergrads (aspiring politicians are the obvious exception). Prestige is definitely a factor. But that prestige isn't undeserved.

Syzygies 4y ago

Admissions is an imprecise art. While the majority of elite school students make do with status and connections, some go on to attain global stature. Global stature is virtually impossible to attain, an unrealistic goal. The world is actually a small place, and global stature is a reasonable goal within one's domain of interest. Both views are indisputably true. One tends to believe the view held by people around you. While it's easy to become a student at an elite school, it's hard to become a professor at an elite school. These are people who have "cracked the code" and naturally see the world as a small place in which one can excel. Most students will never "crack this code", but those in direct contact with good role models are more likely to do so.