6 ms·

I'm convinced there are some savant-level writers out there who have written the worlds greatest novels, and we will never get to read them. I'm thinking of the

I'm convinced there are some savant-level writers out there who have written the worlds greatest novels, and we will never get to read them. I'm thinking of the person who is so enlightened that they feel no need to share it (for monetary or social gain). Or the person who has such imposter syndrome that they never bothered to share. Or the person who finished the novel and burnt it down.

honkler 4y ago
in general, there may (actually, must) be geniuses who have dropped out of society.
- giantg2 4y ago
  Eg Ted Kaczinski
  - honkler 4y ago
    you know what, i had him in mind when i was writing that comment. A true inspiration. PS: it's spelled "Kaczynski"
- jl6 4y ago
  You don’t have to drop out of society to be an unknown genius. You just have to direct your genius at something non-public. I know a number of incredible people just quietly getting on with being excellent at something super-niche and never seeking publicity.
  - danenania 4y ago
    I’d go even further and say that in most cases these days, even true genius is likely to be overlooked unless it coincides with a gift for self-promotion. Only the absolute rarest of masterpieces can rise above the noise just based on the brilliance of the work itself. And even then, there’s a pretty good chance someone better at marketing will just copy it and receive all the credit.
    - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
      Shakespeare could have been just as brilliant a writer, but if he hadn't run a theater (and therefore had the power to put on his own plays), we might not have heard nearly as much about him.
- sammalloy 4y ago
  > in general, there may (actually, must) be geniuses who have dropped out of society. I know quite a few. One was a chess prodigy who never advanced past the fourth grade. He taught himself several trades, became an accomplished musician, but lives completely off the grid and avoids any kind of contact with official entities for various reasons. Although he’s generally considered uneducated, there’s this strange spark of wisdom behind his eyes when you talk with him. Makes you wonder how many people there are like this, toiling away as nobodies, barely visible in society.
danenania 4y ago
I bet there are also bodies of work by posters on internet forums, social media etc. that would constitute great works if properly compiled, edited, and promoted. Sometimes these posters are locally famous in their online communities, but in other cases they are overlooked even on their home turf. Perhaps in hundreds of years some of this stuff will be dug up and celebrated, either by humans or AI. The same thing definitely happens with software too. There are some masterpieces of engineering out there with 15 stars on Github.
- insightcheck 4y ago
  I would say that 3Blue1Brown's educational videos on mathematics will likely be seen as "great works" in the future. The visualizations and explanations are genuinely highly valuable for people studying mathematics (e.g. his "Essence of Linear Algebra" series [0]). The barrier to creating similar work is also high, due to the amount of time and expertise to create each video. They also have an artistic quality and a sense of polish that gives the impression that the videos will stand the test of time. [0] https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZHQObOWTQDPD3MizzM2xVFitgF8hE_ab https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZHQObOWTQDPD3MizzM2x...
- 21723 4y ago
  > I bet there are also bodies of work by posters on internet forums, social media etc. that would constitute great works if properly compiled, edited, and promoted. I'd be careful. People get banned for merely mentioning that guy.
- vl 4y ago
  The Martian is a well-known example, but also there is Worm by Wildbow, which is excellent (and also very long :). And then, of course, Harry Potter and Methods of Rationality.
nineplay 4y ago
IME great literature has to connect at an emotional level. Dostoevsky is a great writer because he understands what it is to be human at a level that no one else can match. I wonder if a savant-level writer could write in a way that resonates in the way other great literature does.
- qiskit 4y ago
  > IME great literature has to connect at an emotional level. No. It's has to be more than that. Otherwise, every formulaic romance novel would qualify as great literature. Great literature has to have it all, but most importantly, it has to advance language/thought/culture. It's what separates the bible, shakespeare's works, etc from dostoevksy. Dostoevksy's works are entertaining. But they certainly aren't great.
  - 6rccn 4y ago
    Notes from Underground absolutely did influence 20th century existentialism.
  - sammalloy 4y ago
    > > IME great literature has to connect at an emotional level. > No. It's has to be more than that But, it’s not. Great literature, great music, and great art connects at an emotional level, which doesn’t involve logic, reason, or thought. Most of what we consider great art has this quality and it does it effortlessly and without trying. A formulaic romance novel isn’t great because it’s gratuitous, sentimental, cliche, and panders to our emotional wants and needs; great art meets us where we are now in life, and doesn’t try to pressure or influence us towards one side or another. That’s the difference. It’s like being surprised or frightened. You have no control over your reaction because it’s hitting you at the fundamental core of your humanity. It’s a feeling, an experience, and ultimately an emotional response on a very primitive level of cognition. For me, it’s like Picard pulling out his flute and playing the song of his people at the end of "The Inner Light". This isn’t an exercise in thinking, it’s all about feeling. And that’s why that episode is widely considered the greatest.
insightcheck 4y ago
A somewhat-recent example of a great novel that was recently discovered was "Stoner" by John Williams, which is about an English professor named William Stoner who stoically lived a seemingly unremarkable life that still evokes sympathy and empathy. The book was first published in 1965, but failed to gain popularity. It took until 2013 to gain wide popularity, and is a contender as one of the greatest American novels. Coverage about the book's resurgence was published in The New Yorker (paywalled at https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/the-greatest-american-novel-youve-never-heard-of https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/the-greatest-ame...) and The Guardian (no paywall, via https://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/dec/13/stoner-john-williams-julian-barnes https://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/dec/13/stoner-john-wi...).
- cafard 4y ago
  Williams was not an unknown: his epistolatory novel Augustus won a National Book Award. I read Stoner in the late 1970s, before it went out of print for some time. I found the novel's revival interesting. For a negative view, I think that Elaine Showalter mostly plays fair in https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/books/classic-stoner-not-so-fast/2015/11/02/9f0ed5aa-7db3-11e5-b575-d8dcfedb4ea1_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/books/classic-s... .
wolverine876 4y ago
I suspect there are many more who never had the opportunity: As a start, I guess that most humans in history have been illiterate. More did not have access to publishers. First, before the printing press (~1475 in England), publishing more than your personal hand-written volume was very expensive - each copy hand-written. Also in most of the world, usually only those who were considered male, of a certain socio-economic class, and whose writing fit norms (not controversial in content, style, etc.), had access to publishing.
- cafard 4y ago
  https://rpo.library.utoronto.ca/content/elegy-written-country-churchyard https://rpo.library.utoronto.ca/content/elegy-written-countr...
- cat_plus_plus 4y ago
  "usually only those who were considered male" If digital media manages to survive, archaeologists of the future will have a blast sifting through our ruins. Like we are still trying to puzzle out why Mayans played a ball game for a chance to be sacrificed and then just abandoned their cities. In case my writing is excavated - dear distant decedent, we basically just forgot how to breed and were succeeded by a civilization that could still manage that task.
  - wolverine876 4y ago
    > we basically just forgot how to breed and were succeeded by a civilization that could still manage that task I'm a little lost about what that has to do with discrimination by publishers against writers by perceived gender? Does that somehow disrupt 'breeding'?
derbOac 4y ago
Emily Dickinson was almost one of those people, until her sister discovered her cache of poems (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Dickinson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Dickinson). Maybe not a good example of lost works, but a good example of how easily it could happen.
vidarh 4y ago
To the latter, famously, the works we most remember Kafka by are works he entrusted to Max Brod for Brod to burn after his death, but which Brod instead edited and published.
mellavora 4y ago
> the person who is so enlightened that they feel no need to share it (for monetary or social gain). Isn't part of enlightenment a sense of the imperative to share? How can you be enlightened without compassion, and thus the motivation to enlighten others?

honkler 4y ago

in general, there may (actually, must) be geniuses who have dropped out of society.

giantg2 4y ago
Eg Ted Kaczinski
- honkler 4y ago
  you know what, i had him in mind when i was writing that comment. A true inspiration. PS: it's spelled "Kaczynski"
jl6 4y ago
You don’t have to drop out of society to be an unknown genius. You just have to direct your genius at something non-public. I know a number of incredible people just quietly getting on with being excellent at something super-niche and never seeking publicity.
- danenania 4y ago
  I’d go even further and say that in most cases these days, even true genius is likely to be overlooked unless it coincides with a gift for self-promotion. Only the absolute rarest of masterpieces can rise above the noise just based on the brilliance of the work itself. And even then, there’s a pretty good chance someone better at marketing will just copy it and receive all the credit.
  - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
    Shakespeare could have been just as brilliant a writer, but if he hadn't run a theater (and therefore had the power to put on his own plays), we might not have heard nearly as much about him.
sammalloy 4y ago
> in general, there may (actually, must) be geniuses who have dropped out of society. I know quite a few. One was a chess prodigy who never advanced past the fourth grade. He taught himself several trades, became an accomplished musician, but lives completely off the grid and avoids any kind of contact with official entities for various reasons. Although he’s generally considered uneducated, there’s this strange spark of wisdom behind his eyes when you talk with him. Makes you wonder how many people there are like this, toiling away as nobodies, barely visible in society.

danenania 4y ago

I bet there are also bodies of work by posters on internet forums, social media etc. that would constitute great works if properly compiled, edited, and promoted. Sometimes these posters are locally famous in their online communities, but in other cases they are overlooked even on their home turf. Perhaps in hundreds of years some of this stuff will be dug up and celebrated, either by humans or AI. The same thing definitely happens with software too. There are some masterpieces of engineering out there with 15 stars on Github.

insightcheck 4y ago
I would say that 3Blue1Brown's educational videos on mathematics will likely be seen as "great works" in the future. The visualizations and explanations are genuinely highly valuable for people studying mathematics (e.g. his "Essence of Linear Algebra" series [0]). The barrier to creating similar work is also high, due to the amount of time and expertise to create each video. They also have an artistic quality and a sense of polish that gives the impression that the videos will stand the test of time. [0] https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZHQObOWTQDPD3MizzM2xVFitgF8hE_ab https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZHQObOWTQDPD3MizzM2x...
21723 4y ago
> I bet there are also bodies of work by posters on internet forums, social media etc. that would constitute great works if properly compiled, edited, and promoted. I'd be careful. People get banned for merely mentioning that guy.
vl 4y ago
The Martian is a well-known example, but also there is Worm by Wildbow, which is excellent (and also very long :). And then, of course, Harry Potter and Methods of Rationality.

nineplay 4y ago

IME great literature has to connect at an emotional level. Dostoevsky is a great writer because he understands what it is to be human at a level that no one else can match. I wonder if a savant-level writer could write in a way that resonates in the way other great literature does.

qiskit 4y ago
> IME great literature has to connect at an emotional level. No. It's has to be more than that. Otherwise, every formulaic romance novel would qualify as great literature. Great literature has to have it all, but most importantly, it has to advance language/thought/culture. It's what separates the bible, shakespeare's works, etc from dostoevksy. Dostoevksy's works are entertaining. But they certainly aren't great.
- 6rccn 4y ago
  Notes from Underground absolutely did influence 20th century existentialism.
- sammalloy 4y ago
  > > IME great literature has to connect at an emotional level. > No. It's has to be more than that But, it’s not. Great literature, great music, and great art connects at an emotional level, which doesn’t involve logic, reason, or thought. Most of what we consider great art has this quality and it does it effortlessly and without trying. A formulaic romance novel isn’t great because it’s gratuitous, sentimental, cliche, and panders to our emotional wants and needs; great art meets us where we are now in life, and doesn’t try to pressure or influence us towards one side or another. That’s the difference. It’s like being surprised or frightened. You have no control over your reaction because it’s hitting you at the fundamental core of your humanity. It’s a feeling, an experience, and ultimately an emotional response on a very primitive level of cognition. For me, it’s like Picard pulling out his flute and playing the song of his people at the end of "The Inner Light". This isn’t an exercise in thinking, it’s all about feeling. And that’s why that episode is widely considered the greatest.

insightcheck 4y ago

A somewhat-recent example of a great novel that was recently discovered was "Stoner" by John Williams, which is about an English professor named William Stoner who stoically lived a seemingly unremarkable life that still evokes sympathy and empathy. The book was first published in 1965, but failed to gain popularity. It took until 2013 to gain wide popularity, and is a contender as one of the greatest American novels. Coverage about the book's resurgence was published in The New Yorker (paywalled at https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/the-greatest-american-novel-youve-never-heard-of https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/the-greatest-ame...) and The Guardian (no paywall, via https://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/dec/13/stoner-john-williams-julian-barnes https://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/dec/13/stoner-john-wi...).

cafard 4y ago
Williams was not an unknown: his epistolatory novel Augustus won a National Book Award. I read Stoner in the late 1970s, before it went out of print for some time. I found the novel's revival interesting. For a negative view, I think that Elaine Showalter mostly plays fair in https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/books/classic-stoner-not-so-fast/2015/11/02/9f0ed5aa-7db3-11e5-b575-d8dcfedb4ea1_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/books/classic-s... .

wolverine876 4y ago

I suspect there are many more who never had the opportunity: As a start, I guess that most humans in history have been illiterate. More did not have access to publishers. First, before the printing press (~1475 in England), publishing more than your personal hand-written volume was very expensive - each copy hand-written. Also in most of the world, usually only those who were considered male, of a certain socio-economic class, and whose writing fit norms (not controversial in content, style, etc.), had access to publishing.

cafard 4y ago
https://rpo.library.utoronto.ca/content/elegy-written-country-churchyard https://rpo.library.utoronto.ca/content/elegy-written-countr...
cat_plus_plus 4y ago
"usually only those who were considered male" If digital media manages to survive, archaeologists of the future will have a blast sifting through our ruins. Like we are still trying to puzzle out why Mayans played a ball game for a chance to be sacrificed and then just abandoned their cities. In case my writing is excavated - dear distant decedent, we basically just forgot how to breed and were succeeded by a civilization that could still manage that task.
- wolverine876 4y ago
  > we basically just forgot how to breed and were succeeded by a civilization that could still manage that task I'm a little lost about what that has to do with discrimination by publishers against writers by perceived gender? Does that somehow disrupt 'breeding'?

derbOac 4y ago

Emily Dickinson was almost one of those people, until her sister discovered her cache of poems (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Dickinson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Dickinson). Maybe not a good example of lost works, but a good example of how easily it could happen.

vidarh 4y ago

To the latter, famously, the works we most remember Kafka by are works he entrusted to Max Brod for Brod to burn after his death, but which Brod instead edited and published.

mellavora 4y ago

> the person who is so enlightened that they feel no need to share it (for monetary or social gain). Isn't part of enlightenment a sense of the imperative to share? How can you be enlightened without compassion, and thus the motivation to enlighten others?