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Ask HN: Are companies preparing to end Remote?

• reactjavascript 4y ago
  They are going to try to. Many workers will resist. Eventually we will reach a Nash equilibrium [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nash_equilibrium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nash_equilibrium
• codegeek 4y ago
  I mean this is Capitalism 101. The Pandemic provided leverage to Employees and they heavily utilized it (some even abused). Now, the leverage may shift back to employers and they can decide. If enough employees quit, then companies will have no choice. Supply and Demand.
  • toomuchtodo 4y ago
    Employees can also attempt to unionize to keep remote work as a benefit. Organizing efforts are protected by US labor law. They can also lobby their state governments (because, real talk, Congress is a joke and it isn't going to happen there) to legislate that employers must offer remote work when the job can be performed remotely (just as state by state, employers must provide salary information in job listings or upon request). Democracy and all that jazz.
    • idiotsecant 4y ago
      Employees can unionize but particularly the HN cohort never will.
      • toomuchtodo 4y ago
        Hard agree, but the HN cohort is not a majority of any class of worker.
  • turtlebits 4y ago
    Agreed. I don't see why there is so much uproar about going into the office. If you were hired with the expectation that you go in, it's not unreasonable for your employer to ask you to return, regardless of productivity gain/loss. Have a talk with your manager, and if it doesn't go the way you want it to, stay and commute or quit.
  • MisterBastahrd 4y ago
    Leverage has not, in fact, shifted back. Every single person I've interviewed in the past two months for roles at my company has declared that they were forced to go back to the office by their employer and do not want to commute anymore. Companies are experiencing brain drain and their executives are too stupid to recognize that a permanent shift has occurred. You don't get to (a) keep wages low for existing employees in a market where wages have been increasing by 10% a year for years and (b) make demands of them that they almost universally disapprove of.
• Kiro 4y ago
  I definitely hope so.
  • ls15 4y ago
    Why?
    • Kiro 4y ago
      Many reasons but to give you one that I haven't seen mentioned before: After going permanently mixed remote our company has reduced the office space. This means that we now have flex seating. It sucks and I really miss having my own desk. My point is that even if I can choose it's just not as nice as before so I certainly hope some companies will revert. Remote work is simply not for me and I want to work at a company that doesn't have these drawbacks. I want to come into work, have my desk and know who I will meet there every day.
      • ls15 4y ago
        I think there are mainly two camps of people. Those who prefer remote and those who prefer onsite. Both perspectives are perfectly valid. Ideally, companies would put more focus on what their employees actually want instead of just creating policies. Work life would be easier if there were teams of remote enthusiasts and teams of onsite enthusiasts (and maybe teams of mixed mode enthusiasts), rather than teams where about 50% don't like the current mode.
        • Kiro 4y ago
          I fully agree with that. Some companies should go fully remote, some mixed and some onsite. It would however need to evolve over time with employees moving to the type of company they want once things have settled down after the remote chock of the pandemic. I just hope that there will be companies that are fully onsite and proud of it. Now they are getting shamed for it even when there are people like me who wants to a work at such a company.
  • burlesona 4y ago
• rinze 4y ago
  Last time I ran the script I made to analyze the "Who's hiring" threads here (this weekend), remote offers on HN were above 80 %. Doesn't look likely. https://rinzewind.org/blog-en/2021/percentage-of-hacker-news-job-postings-that-mention-a-remote-option.html https://rinzewind.org/blog-en/2021/percentage-of-hacker-news...
  • axg11 4y ago
    Companies that advertise roles on HN are not representative of the economy.
    • Karawebnetwork 4y ago
      But they may be representative of the companies HN users have access to. So this 80% may be similar to the testimonials people will leave in the comments here.
    • bdcravens 4y ago
      The same could be said of anything you see on HN. (for example, the obsession with SF real estate, or the use of Javascript stacks)
    • WithinReason 4y ago
      But the trends are
    • draw_down 4y ago
  • neuronic 4y ago
    In Europe, I personally know a bunch of friends and coworkers who are ready to quit immediately if asked back to the office permanently. Most people want a hybrid setup it seems with 1 or 2 office days a week maximum. Personally, I like the freedom of choosing every day and I have bursts of office weeks when I feel social and burts of home office weeks when I feel anti-social. I have colleagues who haven't seen the office since February 2020, others come in every single day... it varies a lot.
• dangerlibrary 4y ago
  The company I work for has a commercial lease that is up for renewal in December, and (AFAIK) they have zero intention of renewing it. So that's one data point in the "no" column.
  • spc476 4y ago
    Here's a second data point: the office I work out of has its lease up for renewal in November (I think). There are so few people left working out of that office (less than 10, from a high of 30 a few years ago) that the company has decided not to renew it, and we no longer have to go to the office at all. A third data point: Every other office our company has is now open, and employees have to (or are strongly encouraged to cough cough) return.
  • balaji1 4y ago
    The cost benefit analysis has to indicate what companies would do. Many companies think offices are costly; employees are happy and still very productive working remote. If Elon thinks great products can be shipped only from the office, it's fine. We continue to ship "subpar" stuff from wherever. Our products are still useful to a lot of people, get the job done and is profitable and making lots of money. Modern tech and knowledge work seems like it would happen in a hybrid of office and home (or wherever).
  • ruh-roh 4y ago
    I don't feel that the realities of rent/utilities/snacks get nearly enough attention in conversations like this. If you have more than a handful of employees with office space in a major metro area, rent is easily equal to (or more) than the cost of multiple people. If you are looking to trim costs in a bad economy, or on the flip side - grow your company efficiently, rent seems like an easy spot to compromise on. The FAANGs have spent millions of dollars building or leasing their current offices, it's not hard to see the Finance/Accounting folks escalating that those investments should to be utilized. (Not saying that it's a primary driver here - but surely it's a factor.)
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• puma_ambit 4y ago
  No this is just Elon being Elon (seeking attention at any cost). There are always parts of companies that need people on site to do x or y job but for the most part the pandemic has forever changed how work is done. If you've got the skills that are in demand you can always quit and go work somewhere else where remote is still an option.
  • systemvoltage 4y ago
    No, this is just going back to normality. This is how it was in 2019. IMO certain professions may be ok with remote but for the most part, the kind of work Tesla does, remote work is suboptimal. We are going to see a bifurcation of companies that adopt either strategies. Time will tell.
    • outworlder 4y ago
      > the kind of work Tesla does, remote work is suboptimal. What's _the kind of work Tesla does_? Sure, remote assembly may be suboptimal. What about software development? Operations? Etc. You don't need face to face all the time. But sure, be a dick and give a one week deadline for people to adjust again and see how it goes.
      • smnrchrds 4y ago
        > What's the kind of work Tesla does? I am having trouble thinking of a job that requires a minimum of 40 hours in the office plus untold many hours that can be done either remotely or in the office.
      • systemvoltage 4y ago
        I sense a bit of frustration and rudeness in your response, not sure why. I've worked as a engineer (not software) and most of the things get done in person, in the lab and in cubicles. Brainstorm on physical objects, looking at CAD models and comparing geometry, reviewing drawings, troubleshooting manufacturing problems, etc. Even operations requires interfacing with manufacturing leads which are in the factory. If you have an axe to grind about WFH, probably should work as a non-software engineer or talk to someone who does and have a sense that perhaps your view is biased towards a particular type of personality that you may have. Even amongst software engineers, there is a debate about how well WFH works.
• mjr00 4y ago
  I don't think anyone on HN has a crystal ball, but... My guess is yes, the tech industry will largely be back in offices by the end of 2022, for a very simple reason: most of the tech giants have returned to working in-office or announced that they will be returning in the near future. Twitter is the notable exception, but of course if Elon's takeover goes through, they will no longer be. The rest of the tech industry largely copies whatever MANGA does, for better or for worse. Remote jobs and fully-remote companies will still exist, but they will be notable because they're unusual.
  • bin_bash 4y ago
    It seems Meta and Amazon in particular are moving even further in the direction of remote. I think Apple and Google will follow.
  • qbasic_forever 4y ago
    Apple delayed their corporate return to office, for like the fourth time in a row now: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/17/technology/apple-delays-return-to-office.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/17/technology/apple-delays-r... I don't think Amazon is entirely back to the office for corporate workers either. AFAIK Microsoft is one of the few that dove head first into back to office.
    • mjr00 4y ago
      Sure but those returns have been delayed, not canceled in favour of a perma-remote policy. I don't think moving to Sioux Falls as an Amazon or Apple employee would work out 6-12 months from now.
      • dr_spicy 4y ago
        At Amazon return to office is now up to middlemanagement some entire orgs are officially ok with full remote indefinitely. Outside these orgs some individuals can work from different locations on the same team. It's not quite clear what the average steady state will look like, but with a lot of internal hiring at Amazon, I would imagine things would gradually tend towards being fairly flexible
• ZainRiz 4y ago
  Some will, especially at places where leadership felt like they individually weren't as productive during covid than when they could meet people in person. But there are many other companies who found themselves just as productive (if not more so) during covid and are happy to embrace the lower costs associated with not needing so much office space and hiring workers from areas with lower cost of living
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• duxup 4y ago
  I think we'll see different companies discover different levels of efficiency. Some will feel compelled to move, others much less so.
• Karawebnetwork 4y ago
  No. The company I work at (roughly 20 countries, 2000 employees -- blurred to avoid doxing myself) is embracing WFH and this allowed us to merge the knowledge and skills of the all our departments across the world. This also allowed us to hire people from all over the countries. Instead of hiring only people local to each branch we get to hire the best workers from all cities. This also allowed the company to hire where there are no offices. I cannot see it going back any time soon. The advantages are too numerous. We still have offices and are encourage to use them like any other resources. They have became hubs where we meet when needed to increase productivity instead of obligatory energy drains. New hubs were recently purchased and customized to our needs. Some even have private cafés and bars in them. This requires trust from the management team, which we have proved over and over for decades. If anything, people are working slightly longer hours now. The 2 hours people would use to do commute are no longer existent so a lot of people are willing to throw extra hours. It's common for people to voluntarily stay in chatrooms while cooking diner and using the time to do teambuilding and also casually talk about work related issues. Similar to how people used to gather in common spaces after work. We even had events where the company would send us ingredients so that we could all cook the same recipes together and enjoy a remote lunch (on paid time). Some of my coworkers are even living the digital nomad lifestyle where they travel across the world yet work their full time. Meetings where people have a beach or forest behind them are common -- and they are not static image backgrounds. I do not miss the previous model and would never go back to it willingly. I cannot imagine the company going back either as they would now need to fire all the new hires who are not close to the offices... and those offices have been converted into hubs with meetings rooms and a small amount of workstations. Even if the entire company wanted to go back tomorrow, there would not be enough workstations.
• jstx1 4y ago
  > Today we got an email that our entire global staff would be getting a long weekend, just because. How is this related to companies ending remote? (btw this week the UK has a 4-day weekend starting tomorrow)
  • morelisp 4y ago
    Monday is a public holiday in many places in Europe.
• qbasic_forever 4y ago
  Smart companies will see what's happening with the airline industry--execs pushing for end to restrictions, having a full return to normal, etc.--and it backfiring with huge swaths of staff out sick constantly, etc. and re-evaluate plans to return to full in-person normal. It really seems like it should be a team-by-team choice if and how they integrate in person into their workflow. edit: Also if your company is in manufacturing, typically a 'pause' of operations is a big warning sign that orders are down and layoffs are coming soon.
  • fundad 4y ago
    Yes exactly the people pushing to end restrictions want to use us back into the office too. Can't require masking or the vax but if you want to keep working from home, you're being selfish.
• honkycat 4y ago
  I was just forced to go on-site for team building. It was fun! I had to fly into SF. We had a nice time. Came home. Covid positive. Me and my partner. Hooray.
  • buzzert 4y ago
    What’s your point? Are you saying you wish you just stayed home forever instead?
    • honkycat 4y ago
      Well, I have been going out and doing stuff for months and months, but i didn't catch covid until I was forced to go to an airport. So yeah, I think there is a balance. I am not one of those "we need to stay inside forever" people. All activity has an inherent risk, and we are not robots that do everything perfectly every day. However, in retrospect I think having us fly in without a working vaccine was reckless. So I guess my point is that covid is still out there and forcing people to congregate on a regular basis isn't the move yet. People are still getting sick. For me, it was a very mild sickness. My poor partner is MISERABLE today.
• ameister14 4y ago
  We ended our lease in May 2020 and saved tens of thousands of dollars since even with the cost of outfitting people's remote work spaces. Productivity stayed the same or increased and we could hire more easily outside the city. People felt more comfortable having kids because they'd be around for them more. Why would anyone go back?
  • zamalek 4y ago
    It's not about whether anyone would go back, it's about a blind C-suite (Elon & Bezos as a start) deciding that everyone needs to go back.
    • ipaddr 4y ago
      Stay away from any company holding over 100 million in real estate. They need to force you back.
• motoboi 4y ago
  Downturn means less money. Less money means pressure to lower salaries. That creates a pressure to hire outside the US, thus remote. So, given that we understood that remote is possible, the downturn will make remote more likely.
  • thawaya3113 4y ago
    I cant get over the fact that American employees are using a soon to be ending once in a lifetime opportunity where they have significant power over their employers to push for policies that make them easier to be replaced by people who will live much better lives at a quarter of their salaries.
• hackitup7 4y ago
  Depends what you mean by ending remote. Thoughts below only apply to tech companies: * I think that relatively few companies will return to "back to office = 5d / week" * I think that many companies will return to "back to office = 1-4 days / week" or "back to office = everyone is in the office for a full work-week every month" But I think that some amount of essentially 100% remote roles will endure, just as they existed pre-pandemic. If I were guessing 5-15% of the workforce will settle into that state. Companies are practical. If 5d / week in office means a lot of employee retention issues, and you aren't ok with that, rational actors aren't going to intentionally floor the car off a bridge.
  • bretpiatt 4y ago
    As a CEO I'll echo this, we're at 2+ days across locations where we have offices, and we try to hire in markets where we have an office or can build to an office of 10+. WFH 100% roles don't do innovation and collaboration the same way that happens in person and even flying folks together for planning sessions is subpar for our goal to impact the communities we operate in positively. With a critical mass volunteering for causes the local team cares about, getting involved with schools, setting up internship programs, etc. are all much easier to achieve. My long-term belief is we'll see a sorting of companies deciding on how they want to operate, then advertising that in recruiting, and finding people who are also passionate about the same. While we go through the changes it will be turbulent for both employee and employer.
    • dont__panic 4y ago
      I understand that in person collaboration can be extremely helpful when you're trying to increase the pace of innovation, pivot, respond to market stresses, etc. But why 2+ days per week? It feels like you're really limiting your pool of candidates when you insist that people come into the office multiple days a week. Why not try an "innovation week" once per quarter to get that work done, and ad-hoc team meetups instead? With the expenses you'd save from ditching the office lease, you could run a lot of social events for employees that serve a similar purpose. Not trying to criticize or change your mind -- I'm just curious how you came to the conclusion that hybrid is the answer, since it sort of feels like the worst of both worlds to me.
• Legion 4y ago
  Small company data point here, but we're going more remote, not less. Previously, remote was basically for people that had been with the company before and left the area, but that we wanted to keep. The pandemic finally wore down the last bit of resistance to embracing remote fully. We still have our (scaled down) office location, but new hires need not have ever set foot in the area.
  • mason55 4y ago
    Exact same story here. Previously we had a few remote employees because the option was to let them go remote or lose them. ~3 months into the pandemic, when it became impossible to hire engineers, we said "fuck it" and accepted that we'd become a remote company even once the pandemic was over, just so that we could access the wider talent market.
    • mikkergp 4y ago
      There's sort of a tipping point where enough companies being remote heavily dilutes the talent you can find in a city now. It probably means any one city after the pandemic has at most 50% of the talent it had before.
• d883kd8 4y ago
  Some of us were already remote before the pandemic, of all the industries software is among the best suited for WFH
• pseingatl 4y ago
  There are problems with remote work. An employee of a California company is working remotely in, say, Illinois. He sits on his chair in the morning to do his regular work at his desk at home. The chair collapses; he is injured. He files for worker's compensation. His company paid no premiums in Illinois, no coverage. Will California cover an out of state injury? I don't know. Second scenario. The California employee decides to work in Mumbai. Why not? Cost of living is lower and relatives are near. The employer then gets a tax bill because it is "doing business" in India. Or the ED VA. Or anywhere the employee decides to rent an apartment. These issues have been put aside during the force majeure pandemic {in war and plagues the laws are silent, or at least, temporarily shut up} but a return to normalcy now means there is no more force majeure excuse.
  • lkxijlewlf 4y ago
    > There are problems with remote work. An employee of a California company is working remotely in, say, Illinois. He sits on his chair in the morning to do his regular work at his desk at home. The chair collapses; he is injured. He files for worker's compensation. His company paid no premiums in Illinois, no coverage. Will California cover an out of state injury? I don't know. It's almost as if no company ever in existence of the universe has had regional sales employees.
    • pseingatl 4y ago
      They do. And they have branch offices as well, even in other countries. They make the choice to establish such offices, form local companies to do so, qualify to do business in foreign jurisdictions, pay taxes, etc. The point is that it is the company making the business decision to do so, not random employees who decide they'd like to live in Kerala while earning US salaries.
      • sciurus 4y ago
        Random employees don't get to make that decision in a WFH scenario either. They're hired while residing at a specific location. If they decide to move, they need to clear it with company HR first.
• haolez 4y ago
  I'd love to hear from someone that works at GitLab on how things work internally. My understanding is that they have hundreds of employees and are 100% remote. Seems amazing from my outsider's perspective.
  • john_cogs 4y ago
    GitLab team member here. We are all-remote with hundreds of employees as you noted. You can read more about how things work at GitLab via our handbook and our all-remote guide: - https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/ https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/ - https://about.gitlab.com/company/culture/all-remote/ https://about.gitlab.com/company/culture/all-remote/
  • jokethrowaway 4y ago
    I looked into it but pay is location based based on a formula so it's pretty meh. Unknown companies doing remotes will pay more if you're decent at negotiating and selling yourself. Buffer has better salaries, I may explore that at the next switch.
• busterarm 4y ago
  Many companies experienced a brain drain with all of the people leaving for other options. It's known that a return to onsite will lose more headcount and companies still aren't prepared for more losses yet. It'll probably take another 2-3 years before most companies have processes in place that can sustain a mass exodus. In the meantime they're going to allow remote and keep future plans as ambiguous and non-committal as possible...
• ReptileMan 4y ago
  It will be on case by case basis - purely software/intellectual products companies I guess will continue to work remotely especially those with nimble teams. Those with physical products will move to hybrid or office work. Tesla makes cars. I think it helps to be as close to the cars as possible if your goal is to put out the best products. But to be fair I do think that commute should be paid at some rate.
• codingdave 4y ago
  I think people at Tesla should call his bluff and leave. That goes for any company that puts out ultimatums. Believe it or not, I don't say that in a spiteful way. I respect that the people who own companies have the right to declare rules for their company. But at the same time, we get to set our own rules for our own lives. If those sets of rules do not match... then do not work there. There is enough variety in this world to find a place that works for you. There might not be enough variety for people like Musk to find all the workers they need.... but that is their problem. I'm just going to find a good place for myself and enjoy my work.
  • deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  • sys_64738 4y ago
    Or continue to work remotely. They can demand you be back in the office but just tell them you have COVID so are self-isolating.
  • travisporter 4y ago
    Agree. Maybe it's me, but everyone is starved for employees, from coffee shops to data science companies. Good time to switch
• ghotli 4y ago
  Don't worry about it, seriously. Vote with your feet or civil disobedience if need be. If you want to work from home then do so. There's more options for 100% complete work from home than ever before. Will it pull back from the lockdown era? Probably. Will that affect your ability to find a job that fits how you work best -- I sincerely doubt it. If the place you work is willing to incur attrition forcing talented people back in the office against their will there's going to be a whole industry of folks perfectly willing to attract that talent to continue working from home.
• jcpst 4y ago
  Our routine: - CEO expresses the virtues of in-person to all employees - CTO follows up, reminding IT that we have more flexibility.
• colechristensen 4y ago
  There will be and is a bit of a pullback into the office, but I think there is a permanent and big increase in remote work baseline that will never go away.
• ravenstine 4y ago
  The company a good friend of mine (software engineer) works at is transitioning to fully remote. By transitioning, I mean they're in the process of getting rid of their physical office. They're a tech company. So while there will of course be companies ending remote because reasons, there are certainly others that are committing to full remote.
• bitcurious 4y ago
  We're shifting back to synced hybrid in July - in office Tuesday/Wednesday, remote the rest of the week. Tuesday/Wednesday we have 'core' hours of 10AM to 3PM during which we're to be available. Initially the plan was to return to office full time, so this is a shift in the direction of remote.
  • sybercecurity 4y ago
    Same here - moving to more telework, but not "remote". Still expect people to show up in a common location for meetings and the like, but not 4-5 days a week. I Work in MD/DC/VA area where traffic can be very bad so this can help younger co-workers with families who typically have to live further out. They did create a formal remote work process for those that want or need to come to the area. This includes new hires during the pandemic who may not need to relocate right away (or at all).
• pseingatl 4y ago
  One advantage of remote work is that there can be no "hostile environment," and there are fewer stages on which an employee can act up. Of course, there are people like Jeffrey Toobin on Zoom calls, but fortunately, not too many.
• weej 4y ago
  Laszlo Bock was recently interviewed on this topic via Fortune (article below), and I tend to agree with him. It will be a slow roll over time for most companies returning to work (see Apple taking harder stance) with some exceptions on hybrid model 3-2 at work vs. remote. > Bock says that after three to five years of flexible work models and hybrid plans, the normal in-office schedule will prevail at Google—and beyond. He predicts this transition will happen over the next few years, telling Bloomberg it’s the “boil the frog method.” https://fortune.com/2022/04/04/former-google-hr-chief-laszlo-bock-hybrid-remote-return-to-office-work/ https://fortune.com/2022/04/04/former-google-hr-chief-laszlo...
  • MisterBastahrd 4y ago
    I think he vastly overestimates the percentage of employees who feel that they need to be seen. This is not about the rank and file. This is about middle managers trying to impress corporate execs.
    • weej 4y ago
      Fair point. Out of sight out of mind and reduces ability for advancement up the corporate ladder. It plays a role in office politics and positioning for better or worse in organizational structures and accolades.
• chiefalchemist 4y ago
  Some will certainly try to "get back to normal." They didn't weather the disruption (i.e., pandemic) well, and are still struggling. The easy and obvious solution (to them) is to return to the good ol' days of no WFH. On the other hands, the smart orgs are focused on figuring out how to use the disruption to their advantage. Of course, in the short term, there will be winners in both camps. But WFH is not a fad, just as the internet was not a fad.
• mason55 4y ago
  A good hint will be what the company did during the pandemic. Did they tell people they were free to move outside of the area? Did they open hiring up to everyone (as opposed to hiring locally even during WFH)? How flexible were they on remote work before the pandemic? Those kinds of companies will find it very hard to go back to "everyone in office". What are you going to do, tell everyone that you hired outside the core area that they need to move or be fired? I'm sure some companies are doing that but it will be terrible for morale and the company in general. I do think that the balance will shift a bit more back towards being in office, but it will happen via current companies failing and new companies starting as "in office." Obviously there will be the hit in hiring but some people will think it's worth it and it will be easier when starting fresh vs. de-transitioning a company that went remote.
• say_it_as_it_is 4y ago
  Investors are pressuring management to act in a way that they understand. Many investors have not learned anything in the last few years about productivity and so are reverting to what they know. They need to be educated and willing to learn from the information they are provided. This may be asking too much.
• harryvederci 4y ago
  So your facts are: - Elon Musk basically says that he does not trust his employees enough to let them work from home (which may or may not be justified, I don't know them). - You get one or more days off. And your conclusion is: - Your company may be preparing to end remote work. I don't understand why? I'd personally draw the conclusion that you apparently work for a company that is doing well at the moment. Nice!
• fnordpiglet 4y ago
  I just read through who’s hiring post here and almost every post offered remote or hybrid. To my memory there was one offering onsite only and it made them look sad. Most companies don’t want to look sad. I know some of the major banks who were adamant about return to office have quietly surrendered that hybrid is here to stay. You’ll find all sorts of companies though and I suspect if we head into a recession the remote rights crowd will lose ground. What I am waiting for is the day that accounting gets the CFO to realize if they got more people working remotely they could reduce real estate. Once the emotions of the situation die down sooner or later the accountants will point out that productivity didn’t drop during remote work lockdowns and there’s money that could be saved. This is the moment things really shift. But that’ll be 5 years IMO. Edit: to be clear they already know these facts but right now it’s all emotions based decision making. Once the emotions fade and a little water goes under the bridge a profit motive in cost cutting will be the thing that strangles in office work. If you think about it it’s quite a luxury to spend that much money just to collocate bags of mostly water for their social pleasure. And accounting doesn’t give a rats ass about your social pleasure.
  • MrPatan 4y ago
    This. Productivity is harder to measure than the cost of the offices, the accountants will win it hands down.
  • macintux 4y ago
    Some corporations, though, are saddled with real estate that can’t be easily sold off. Large enclosed campuses, e.g. The one I’m thinking of in particular is a huge part of the downtown economy, all those workers taking lunch breaks. I don’t envy the corporate officers, although I envy their salary. It’s not an easy playing field to navigate.
    • fnordpiglet 4y ago
      Most companies tend to not flat out own their real estate but lease it, sometimes through a special purpose vehicle that only owns that building and was financed by the company. This allows a lot better flexibility and isolation from bankruptcy etc. But I would expect if my prediction is true a big write down for those owning and holding large campuses as other corporate real estate “right sizes” to what the accountants can convince the board of. I hope the glut of office space can be rezoned to mid use - smaller office foot prints combined with residential and commercial. We are frankly overweight office space in regions saddled with a massive shortfall of residential space. However I really emphasize with commercial businesses right now. Downtown seattle is a ghost town. The lunch crowd businesses are suffering, and the streets have been taken over by the mentally ill and those that feed on them.
• hnuser847 4y ago
  I work for a large, non-tech, Fortune 500 company in the Midwest. When I was interviewing here back in January/February of 2020, they insisted on making all tech workers work in-person out of the Chicago office and even paid me a relocation bonus to move back to Chicago. After having spent my entire career at various startups across the country, some of which were remote, it seemed a bit backwards and old fashioned to insist that everyone work in-person, but I rolled with it since I wanted to move back to Chicago anyways. Ironically, my first day coincided with the March 2020 lockdowns, so I never ended up going into the office. Since then the company has hired engineers from across the country and contractors from around the world. Leadership has mentioned many times how nice it would be to have everyone back in the office, but it's simply too late at this point. We're too distributed to bring everyone back. I worked out of the office recently and I was literally the only one there.
  • bufferoverflow 4y ago
    I wouldn't mind working from the office if I had an actual office. But instead I get an open space cubicle with random people walking and talking behind my back every 5 minutes. I get a $50 uncomfortable chair that looks like it's 15 years old. I get an unstocked kitchen, so I have to spend $15-20 on a meal. I get random people stealing food and stuff of my desk. This was at a big 3-letter corporation and at a startup before that. I switched to remote 10 years ago and don't ever want to work from "the office" ever again.
    • burntoutfire 4y ago
      You get a cubicle? I thought nowadays the norm is just people sitting at a row of desks, as if office furniture and space was made of gold and needed to be extremely optimised for.
      • taylodl 4y ago
        It helps you "collaborate", if by "collaboration" you mean everybody griping about how awful the working conditions are. It's funny to see people waxing nostalgic about the days in the office - everybody working in an open space, wearing headphones and ignoring one another so they could get some work done, and everybody griping about how awful the environment is.
• andrewmutz 4y ago
  I don't think we are moving to a world where all companies are remote, or a world where all companies are non-remote. I think it will be bi-modal, where people choose which type of company they would like to work at. I know people who strongly prefer being remote and those who strongly prefer working in the same space, and the world has room for both types of companies.
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• aloisdg 4y ago
  I will leave my company before leaving WFH.
• gojomo 4y ago
  There are some industries, activities, teams, & individuals who can work as well, or better, remotely. There are other industries, activities, teams, and individuals who can work better with more in-person/same-site time. Some workplaces that were more-remote for transient pandemic reasons (including government mandates) will become less-remote, either because they think, or they know, that will offer them an advantage. Others, their eyes opened to remote's potential, may continue to encourage or expand remote work. Employees & employers should absolutely self-sort into the situations that work best for them. There's no one right answer for the whole economy, across many industries, teams, and individual work-styles. And those employers that erroneously choose one style, despite another working better for their teams, will receive negative feedback from the markets for both hiring & their products.
• dv_dt 4y ago
  In talks hiring onto to a F500 company and they seemed to be leaning into remote, getting rid of some sw offices - which to me is a real sign of acceptance and even building it into the operating outlook.
• themadturk 4y ago
  My employer is having everyone return to the office. The difference is that we now have satellite offices, easing the commute for many people (I will be a five minute drive away, as opposed to a 30-60 minute bus commute). Plus we have limited WFH days available each year. Working remotely full time is pretty much forbidden. People who moved out of the area during the pandemic were told to move back or leave their jobs (which more than a few did). No one was fired over it (that I'm aware of), but there were a number of resignations and retirements.
• jeffrallen 4y ago
  I'm starting a job tomorrow, and I requested to be all in-person, at least to start with. I will need to establish connections and observe work styles to discover what the true needs of the team are. Thus: it depends.
• WithinReason 4y ago
  I wonder how many companies who are trying to pressure employees to go back to the office would actually fire a person if they simply ignore it and continue working from home.
• mensetmanusman 4y ago
  Companies/the pandemic accidentally gave knowledge workers a huge value raise by keeping remote work and making it effective for many roles. Now, if it gets taken away, people will leave unless $$$ is used to compensate the lost value. The global workforce is shrinking due to demographic trends, so there will always be jobs to fill for quite a few decades.
  • _puk 4y ago
    I live somewhere pretty idyllic, and get approached about remote roles in London paying $$$ regularly. Granted I may need to travel a few hours on the train for a big client meeting once a month, but I accept that the personal touch accelerates things massively in the early stages of a client relationship. My team is spread out across Europe, and gets a serious amount done. Given the remote first element I can still be in contact with them whilst travelling. Compare that to the local companies that want me in the office 3-4 days a week for $ (almost half the salary), with a team where communication is not remote first and it's a complete no-brainer which is more attractive. Remote is here to stay. Some companies will do it, some won't. Time will tell which have the competitive advantage..
• linesinthesand 4y ago
  My company really wants to but can't seem to do it without crippling themselves... time will tell
• MrPatan 4y ago
  Go
• golover721 4y ago
  The answer is yes, and no. There are definitely a lot of the large tech companies who plan on being back in office. They are at various stages of how they are enforcing it. There are also a number of large tech companies that have committed to a kind of nebulous middle ground where offices are open but it’s up to each organization or sometimes even team if they are in office, fully remote or somewhere inbetween. Then there are a few large but especially a significant number of smaller tech companies that have fully embraced remote. Finding it to be a good way to differentiate and attract workers they otherwise would not get. Finally there are companies that still can’t seem to make up their mind and leave everyone in a limbo state of what is going to happen.
• notyourday 4y ago
  Remote productivity is lower than colocated productivity for the vast majority of the companies ( including 99.9% of those that are represented on HN). Most companies simply exist in the middle of the bell curve of "success" with their competitors being right there, next to them. During the pandemic the productivity slump was about equal across the board. The first company that brings the workers back into the office will get the productivity gain of 15-20% over its newly "we are remote peers", cleaning its peers clocks. In a couple of quarters the management of the "we are remote peers" will tell everyone to get back into the office.
  • stevenalowe 4y ago
    References?
  • aprdm 4y ago
    I've seen many studies that said the opposite of what you're saying.
• tshaddox 4y ago
  I'm surprised to see Elon explicitly admitting that he and his executives at Tesla have no way to measure the productivity of workers other than counting how many hours they are at the Tesla office. To be clear, I'm not surprised that this is the case, but I'm surprised that he would voluntarily admit it. He obviously thinks it's a sick burn, but it's a pretty big self-own even for an Elon tweet.
  • mikkergp 4y ago
    One weird problem with not having empathy as a leader is you think everyone works the same way you do. It's bizarre to me that you couldn't see that some people might be more productive working from home. I liked going into the office. I liked my teammates, I liked some of the social aspects. But between 90 minute lunches, coffee breaks, people constantly talking in the office. I was lucky to work 4 hours a day. How you could think that butts in seats is going to work better for everyone is bizarre to me. But maybe everyone just pretends to be working while he's around and he doesn't see the waste.
  • neuronic 4y ago
    First, define productivity for each role. After trying to do so, most companies could probably fire 1/5 of their work force without repercussions.
    • olddustytrail 4y ago
      You can't just fire the entire C-level without any repercussions.
    • tshaddox 4y ago
      Perhaps that's true, but still, it's weird to say "we don't have any way of measuring productivity based on output, so our approach is to require people to physically be in the office 40+ hours per week so that we can at least fire people who literally don't show up enough." In fact, I would call that "pretending to manage a company" more than I would call remote work "pretending to work."
    • deleted 4y ago
• tmp_anon_22 4y ago
  Forcing in-person now is a cowards way at doing layoffs a-la Yahoo a decade ago.
  • silksowed 4y ago
    ive always wondered what would happen if the remote employee just said they were not going back in the office. if said employer wanted to terminate the employee wouldn't that grant the employee to severance, or unemployment benefits at the minimum?
• Simon_O_Rourke 4y ago
  We (mid-sized tech company) are gone fully remote since the first week of the pandemic and there's no going back now. However, my significant other has had a very different experience of late. They (staid corporate Fintech company) panicked at the start of the pandemic and needed to FedEx lots of new laptops around the country just to get people online. Roll forward two years and they start introducing two days back at the office "after consultations with staff", and then last week announced full time back in the office from September. So far this week about 5 percent of staff have resigned, and my SO will also once something new and remote is lined up.
• crossroadsguy 4y ago
  I am not qualified and experienced enough in tech and business to judge his alleged genius and credentials so to speak, but I have seen enough life to see that this person is on the extreme end of being an attention seeker in a such a way that it’s never enough for him. Most other leaders aren’t. So, no. But if a companies wants employees to return to office most of them would do it like adults and being discretionary. My company got rid of all physical space in US and UK and EU and is considering/discussing hybrid in India (monthly/bi-monthly in person 5-7 days work in office together; with a weekend included; travel and expense paid by the company). Most aren’t agreeing for that either. Out of 180 present only 4 raised hands for hybrid (I was one of them! sigh) — even our managers didn’t say yes for full-time on site.
• 01100011 4y ago
  Depends on what is good for the company. Certainly, a downturn will give more power to management. On a longer timescale, I think things look good for labor overall given the demographics. My company just reinstated the mask mandate, so I don't think we're headed back soon. Also, a lot of folks seem to have shadow relocated to avoid a salary adjustment, so if/when management does ask people back, they're in for a hell of a surprise. I know I feel like a sucker for sticking around the bay area during the pandemic. It's looking like the housing market will correct soon. When that happens, we're leaving. Hopefully in 4-6 months, but sometimes these things take years to play out.
• 999900000999 4y ago
  I'm seeing something like 50/50. A friend of mine left a company because they tried to get him to come back to the office after letting him work remote for almost 18 months, he just doesn't want to do it. I'm okay of going back into the office sometimes, what is really frustrating is I can't choose where I live anymore. I can't decide that I want to go and buy a house out in Nebraska. I need to stay in an expensive Metro
• tamaharbor 4y ago
  I was a dedicated electrical engineer and did not miss a day of work (other than PTO) in 42 years. However, I truly disliked WFH during Covid, and found myself wasting time and being very non-productive. It is puzzling to me that people can’t believe that others could act as I did during lockdown. I for one can side with employers and their insistence that employees get back to the office in the name of productivity.
• bityard 4y ago
  The CEO of the company I work for has announced an official return-to-office date, a couple of weeks away. However, every lower-level manager that I know has told their reports that they can either come into the office or continue working from home indefinitely, whatever works for them. I plan to mainly work from home but will probably spend more time in the office during the summer, due to: 1) Wife and kids will be home more, and I focus better in a quiet office. 2) I get to ride my motorbike in the nicer weather. 3) 50% less traffic along my commute due to college kids going home and university staff on vacation.
• Kon-Peki 4y ago
  While my employer hasn't (and probably won't) come out and explicitly said that they will eventually be back in the office, they aren't hiding that this is what they eventually want. We have always been about flexibility and work/life balance, so it's not surprising that 30-40% of us have young kids at home. Last time they tried moving to a hybrid working plan, a ton of people said that they would have to quit because child-related stuff was still a mess. I bet in another year or two, they'll look to see if things have stabilized, and if so they'll start the move back to in-office work.
• taylodl 4y ago
  Well, our productivity measurably increased. It got management's attention. We've also now been hiring people, even VP's, from all over the country and let them remain where they are. Pandora's box has been opened and we're not closing it. Honestly, if I were working for a company demanding everybody to come back to the office I'd be looking for another job. It's not the returning to the office that's the problem per se - it's the fact that leadership will have demonstrated such poor vision and leadership and abuse of power to bring everybody back to the office. Such a company is doomed to go the way of the dodo bird. You may as well get out while you can.
• sys_64738 4y ago
  They are but just ignore it and continue to work remotely.
• JaimeThompson 4y ago
  It's strange that Musk isn't putting in the 40+ hours per week for the various companies he runs isn't it? Would be nice if more leaders would lead by example, instead of dictate.
• ruh-roh 4y ago
  More than two years into this, "*returning* to the office" is incorrect framing in a lot of cases. I have been hired via Zoom to companies out of state TWICE in this period, each headquartered more than 1k miles away. I had/have no office to "return" to. If either decided to roll back their remote policy and require physical presence, they are essentially firing me (along with ~100 other folks). I guess I am on the other side - the more remote permeates, the harder it will be to claw it back. Not just because people like it and are now empowered, but also the practical/logistical headaches involved.
• sergiotapia 4y ago
  Tinfoil: The economic downtown is deliberate to give companies more leverage to get their WFH employees back into the office. Too much money in office space and all the surrounding businesses to keep the status quo.
• fsociety 4y ago
  Even if many companies manage to force people back into the office, I’ve met some truly exceptional people who only work remote - many the best in their field. It would be a moneyball moment where startups can destroy larger companies by capitalizing on this talent pool.
• Andaith 4y ago
  We're moving to a smaller office that doesn't fit everyone, while growing the team by hiring from anywhere in the country, while some staff are moving up/down the coast. Expectation is 1 or 2 days a week in office, but it won't be mandatory even if you're in commuting distance.
• juancn 4y ago
  I guess it will depend. My company was on-site always before the pandemic, no remote work. After the pandemic and the productivity we showed during it, the policy was changed to "office optional" for all workers, you may need to go if your job description actually needs you on site for something, but if not, it's always optional (in theory forever). About half of the people I work with I haven't seen face to face.
• mbrodersen 4y ago
  Companies that aren’t WFH flexible will simply be less competitive in the jobs market. Good developers have choices and are less likely to pick inflexible companies to work for. It’s that simple.
• irongeek 4y ago
  I was remote with HP for years, doing SysAdmin work. Then I changed job, went back to the office and slowly went a few days a week remote, then went fully remote during the pandemic. The company learned they could save a bucket ton of money not having to pay for an office and just told us all to stay at home. Honestly, for about a year and a half I put in 10 hours a day or more, just recently I learned to to back off some and put a hard end to the day. I can easily put more hours into my job than ever before remotely than I could going into the office. It is up to companies to learn how to work with their employees. Honestly, it takes creative workers and employers to benefit, the companies that are the future and that are building the future will learn to best utilize their remote workforce.
• muzani 4y ago
  Things were trending towards remote in 2019. We overshot the ideal remote rate because of the lockdowns and it's in correction now. For one thing there has been a lot of shifting. Some colleagues prefer to live in a remote location close to family, where the living costs are low too. And they'll be forever remote from now on. And there are those who are more flexible. I like seeing people but I'm not an extrovert. Peak remote work wasn't quite "work from home" but "work from a co-working space". For some reason, many offices are not as cozy and arr too remote compared to a co-working space.
• xmodem 4y ago
  My employer recently announced it was planning to continue its hybrid approach for the foreseeable future. We grew significantly over 2020-2021, and we now have significantly more employees than desks for them, but no current plans to find more space.
• aussiegreenie 4y ago
  Tesla is reducing its headcount without saying they are reducing their headcount.
• logosmonkey 4y ago
  Doubt it. The healthcare org I work for is still happy for all IT staff to be remote and the companies that have come headhunting me recently have all offered full remote. This is for analytics work in hospital systems, they aren't exactly the most forward thinking orgs but even they are adopting WFH as a new normal for back office staff.
• johnamata 4y ago
  Most companies in my country, including big tech, are in hybrid remote setup now. A year ago it was 1 day/week that must be spent at the office. Now it's 2 days while for some companies it's 3 days/week. There's still covid in the country and community quarantine in place, but eventually they'll ease us all back to the office. The government is the biggest one pushing for a return to office, as they see it as their key metric to getting the economy back on track.
• kypro 4y ago
  Remote work has been a thing for a while. I've been working remotely (mostly anyway) for over a decade at this point. The only thing that's changed recently was that more jobs (including those outside of tech) were forced to embrace remote working. I think there will be some normalisation over the next year or two as offices reopen, but the trend over the last decade has only been towards more remote working. A decade ago it was difficult to find companies open to remote work but in 2018 (the last time I looked for a job pre-pandemic) it wasn't hard at all -- at least within tech. The thing I'm most concerned about in the immediate future is the tech job market in general. I'm a fairly senior dev so I'm not too worried about myself, but I think junior devs might have a hard time finding work if the economy takes a turn for the worse. I'm not that worried about remote working though. Almost everyone I speak to seems fairly adamant that they won't be returning to the office just for the sake of it. Going forward there will be more pressure than ever for companies to accommodate those who wish to work remotely and personally I don't see myself ever taking a non remote job again. I'm sure some companies will insist employees work from the office, but those companies will find it increasingly harder to recruit talent.