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I think Tesla is finally getting some competition. Even if the F-150 isn't perfect, they finally have a vehicle that can compete. I doubt that Tesla's Cyber t
by aNoob7000 4y ago
I think Tesla is finally getting some competition. Even if the F-150 isn't perfect, they finally have a vehicle that can compete.
I doubt that Tesla's Cyber truck will be out anytime out in the near future and at a price that can compete with the F-150.
- throwaway71271 4y agoi certainly hope they can build square car that is cheaper than a rounded car :)
- randerp 4y agowhat is tesla's competitive advantage going forward? brand cachet?
- JohnBooty 4y agoDoes Tesla's patent portfolio serve as a competitive advantage? I don't follow such things, so I don't know. Regardless of patent portfolio, I think it's a safe bet that Tesla views their (vaporware-ish?) self driving tech as a competitive advantage. Probably why they emphasize it so much and Elon seems absolutely fixated on it.
- randerp 4y agoIf I interpret this correctly[0], their patents have no competitive value? It just feels like we're at an inflection point where Tesla's production will soon be dwarfed by competitors and consumers having the choice of dozens of EVs vs a handful is going to drastically shift the market. [0] - https://www.tesla.com/legal/additional-resources#patent-pledge https://www.tesla.com/legal/additional-resources#patent-pled...
- bryanlarsen 4y agoThat's just a bog standard mutual license patent clause wrapped up in some silly "open source" phrasing. > where Tesla's production will soon be dwarfed by competitors If theycan get enough batteries, that's currently the bottleneck for most manufacturers. Tesla has spent the last decade securing battery supply.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- colordrops 4y agoNo union. Supercharger network. Battery factories. Solar cells. AI and software. Much less baggage as a newer company.
- randerp 4y agoAll valid points - I still think there is something brewing behind the scenes of Ford with their Model E division, some financial engineering to spin it off and shed pension liabilities or whatever.
- _ea1k 4y agoThat last part is a huge deal. No meaningful debt and very positive cash flow will give them some meaningful advantages.
- bryanlarsen 4y agoExactly. With over 20% margin, Tesla can afford to cut prices a lot if they ever need to, whereas most other manufacturers are probably barely breaking even on their electric vehicles.
- dreamcompiler 4y agoTesla's supercharger network still seems to me a lot more reliable and easy-to-use than Electrify America (which Ford uses), but EA is building out fast. I'm also a bigger fan of Tesla's cylindrical batteries than Ford's pouch batteries, but time may prove me wrong.
- xeromal 4y agoYeah, the supercharger network is years ahead. I wish EA would do something similar to the tesla chargers where it would automatically bill your account. I love not having to use a CC or scan a fob.
- ulfw 4y agoThere is plug-in charging that uses your car's VIN. No need to credit card/fob/anything. https://www.engadget.com/electrify-america-ev-charging-payments-191652222.html https://www.engadget.com/electrify-america-ev-charging-payme...
- xeromal 4y agoPerfect. This is one step closer to making EVs even more convenient than gas. Forget your wallet? You can still get a quick charge if necessary.
- tapoxi 4y agoEA is just one of the CCS networks in the country, there's also EVgo, Chargepoint, probably others.
- dreamcompiler 4y agoPoint taken. Tesla is soon going to have to make its US network CCS compatible too; their European cars already use CCS connectors because the law there requires it. It's kind of an unoptimal result because CCS is a big ugly connector while the Tesla connector is small and sleek: Tesla uses the same pins for both AC and DC, while CCS requires separate pins. Oh well. VHS beats Betamax again.
- xeromal 4y agoI think Tesla still has a leg up on range. I looked into buying an F150 but the range is just a bit low for me. The Lightning has a purported EPA range of 320 miles which if you subtract off the top 10% and bottom 10% means it really has 250 miles of usable range at EPA standards which would probably drop it to 150-180 if you're driving it at highway speeds with a load. It's just a bit too low for me if I'm going to take this thing camping or hauling a trailer for a boat. That said, I think 150-180 miles is plenty of range for people who would just drive this thing to work and back.
- _ea1k 4y agoMost Teslas are similar. ~320 miles at best, and closer to 200 in the real world on the highway with reasonable buffers.
- xeromal 4y ago320 is a fair mark, but I didn't do the math for real world reasonable buffers for the lightning. That would drop it further to about 130-150 miles.
- _ea1k 4y agoI'm confused. You said you subtracted off the top 10% and the bottom 10%? TBH, comparing my Model Y to the Lightning, the only range issue that I see is the charge speeds. The Lightning's 400V CCS system limits it a bit, so charge times would be quite a bit higher on longer trips.
- xeromal 4y agoYeah, you pretty much have to do that with any EV. You don't want to frequently charge over 90% to preserve the integrity of the battery. Same with the bottom 10%. You don't want to frequently drive the car down to 1%. I think it's not a huge deal if you drive it down to 5% or so, but as an owner of an EV, it gets pretty scary to go below 10% before you charge if you're on a trip. If the wind speed/ temp/etc gets out of control, it can sap your battery before you make it to the next station. Ignoring 20% of the battery is pretty much the standard on today's EVs.
- alistairSH 4y agoThe Supercharger network is a selling point as well. Much of the US is well covered. The chargers seem more robust than competitor's set-ups (which are often broken when you arrive). Trying to charge a non-Tesla during a trip can be a bit of a crap-shoot. Will the station be available? Will it be functional? Do I need to create yet another new account on yet another new app to access it? This won't last. But until the competition makes their charging network better, it's a selling point for many buyers.
- mbesto 4y ago> The Supercharger network is a selling point as well. Much of the US is well covered. How many truck buyers are realistically driving their trucks cross country? The ideal truck EV owner is the ranch owners in Texas who drives to the local TSC, grabs his stuff and then is doing work somewhere on the 10 acres ranch. If it meant never driving to the gas station that's a huge time saver. F-150 is a great fit for that. The people I know interested in the Tesla cybertruck are tech bros who have enough disposable income that buying a cybertruck is basically a solution in search of a problem. They'll end up using it to tow their boat or go camping.
- alistairSH 4y agoThe same number of buyers that take their ICE trucks cross country? Most truck owners don't need trucks, or need a truck very infrequently, but buy one anyways. I'd consider a Lightning if my Honda Ridgeline wasn't only a year old. Except I'm not sure it has enough range to actually get me from DC to Canaan Valley and back without a long detour to charge on the way home. Using ABRP, it has 90 minutes of charging and another 30-45 minutes of extra driving to get to a charger. This is over what should be a 6 hour drive (3 each way), so pretty ridiculous. Compared to a Tesla Model X (standard range), which needs 45 minutes of charging, but no extra distance because there's a Supercharger on the way (using Tesla's maps). The 45 minutes charging is still pretty silly, given an ICE can do the round trip on a single tank, but that's way better than the non-Tesla option.
- aNoob7000 4y agoI think it is brand and their charging network.
- bergenty 4y agoSupercharger network, much longer range, significant investment in battery technology that should make their cars comparatively cheaper, FSD when it arrives, fantastic safety scores and cult like brand loyalty. Tesla has a lot going for it atleast for the next 5-10 years.
- rapsey 4y agoHowever the amount of these trucks ford can produce is very small. Their head start for launch is pretty meaningless.
- rhacker 4y agoDeliver first, deliver often. Figure the rest out later. Startup playbook.
- Someone1234 4y ago> Their head start for launch is pretty meaningless. You're comparing something that exists to something that doesn't yet exist, and you have no information on future volume, then calling the first thing "meaningless." I don't understand that at all. Your point is entirely predicated on Tesla producing Cybertruck in such large volumes that it dwarfs Ford's F-150 Lightning, but you have no factual basis for that claim.
- cduzz 4y agoThe drama here for all of this is that we're seeing the century of R&D invested into making cars compressed into a decade for replicating that work for electric vehicles. They're comparable, but not identical, so domain knowledge for one doesn't always translate into the other. Witness the Bolt / LG Chem battery fiasco. So yes, Ford is the first (or second? third?) over the line to make engineering samples available to the public. They also have their ICE platforms to fall back on if they don't execute perfectly. Plenty of time no worries. Tesla (and rivian?) are in the deep end without any option but to figure out how to swim / mass produce their product, so they've got incentive to execute. There are plenty of companies that got their product to market only to be destroyed by warranty burdens. It is instructive that the bolt was first to market (vs the model 3). So the story hasn't been told yet, but certainly tesla's not in a position of strength here.
- _ea1k 4y agoI wouldn't say that he has no factual basis. Ford is aiming for a run rate of 5k/week by the middle of next year. We know that this was considered the minimal benchmark for the Model 3 and that their targets for CT are higher. Its a guess about future state, so surely not certain, but noone has this "won" by getting ~50k units done over the next 12 months.
- xeromal 4y agoI own a model S but I think the F-150 is truly the next competitor. Other cars were either niche (Taycan) or not that great (i3, leaf). The bolt really was the second best option. Lucid is great too but they're not to scale yet. Once the lightnings are easy to acquire at a dealership, I think Tesla will have its work cut out for it. The F150 is the best selling car/anything in the US.
- azinman2 4y agoThe VW ID.4 is very real competition.
- xeromal 4y agoYeah, I've heard good things about it but haven't been able to see one in Los Angeles yet. Polestar has a nice car too. I've been wanting to drive one.
- yuppie_scum 4y agoA company so run by accountants that they needed to have “left, right and front/rear-toggle” power window button instead of a power window button for all four windows. No thanks
- alphabettsy 4y agoThe Ford Mach-E seems to be well received.
- xeromal 4y agoYeah, it's a solid car. I wasn't a fan of its suspension, but a lot of people don't seem to care!
- pmcollins 4y agoi’m done with dealerships. i wish ford and gm had created clean-sheet, direct-to-consumer sub brands for their electric products. and didn’t gm do something pretty radical when they rolled out saturn in the 80s (separate dealers with non commissioned staff)? they could have at least done that. instead we get markup and sleaze.
- Bayart 4y agoTesla always accrued competition pretty fast in whatever domain it explored, its big advantage being brand and battery life. For my part while I'd like a vehicle with Tesla autonomy, the appalling QA/finish (Teslas still look cheap) and the support policies mean I'll go to an EU or Asian brand when I finally pick an EV (at least if there's anything left by that time that doesn't look like some trashy gamer mouse on wheels).
- slac 4y agoVery happy to report that the QA and finish on the Teslas built in Berlin and Shanghai are so much better than the ones in the USA. A whole other level.
- MBCook 4y agoI’ve heard that before, which is just kind of sad. It proves they’re capable of it, they just don’t care (at least in the US).
- bryanlarsen 4y agoI think the difference is that cars built in a 40 year old factory with 40 year old equipment aren't as high quality as cars built in a new factory.
- enragedcacti 4y agoIt will be interesting to see the quality of cars that come out of Austin.
- josefresco 4y agoPlenty of other electric cars on the market now too - many of them decent competition. Alkso Tesla hasn't shipped a truck. Rivian has shipped, Ford has now shipped. If and when the Cybertruck makes it to market, Ford and Rivian will finally see some competition. Once GM gets on the electric pickup market, it's game over for the wonky Tesla unless they end up selling exclusively to the types who don't actually do truck stuff (the G-Wagon crowd).
- alphabettsy 4y agoGM is already shipping the Hummer. It’s just really expensive so they won’t be a viable competitor for most of the market until the Chevy version arrives.
- elbigbad 4y agoI ended up getting so tired of the CYBERTRUCK wait that I cancelled my deposit and ordered a Rivian. No doubt even though the wait is still long for me, I see them on the road regularly now and strongly suspect I’ll have one in hand long before the first CYBERTRUCK delivers to anyone.
- jerkstate 4y agoPersonally I’m excited for some competition. Tesla appears to have a big battery lead and is innovating with the assembly process. Without competition there’s been no reason to include vehicle 2 home power and cause extra wear on the battery pack, Tesla previously said the cybertruck won’t have V2H, but now that it’s offered with the F150, I hope they reconsider (I’ll probably cancel my CT preorder and get a Lightning if they don’t)