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“At scale, when these vehicles are enabled to send energy back to the grid, flex alerts and notices of grid emergencies will be a thing completely of the past,”

• Gigachad 4y ago
  Grid failures are usually very short. If paid well, most people would be fine to use their batteries to smooth out a 10 minute failure while backup generation is turning on.
  • kylecordes 4y ago
    Where I live in the Midwest, power failures are very rare. When they happen it is usually amid a major thunderstorm or snowstorm, affecting thousands of customers, with obvious obstacles to getting crews out to fix things. Power goes out... it might last 8 minutes, it might last 8 hours, it might last days. At that moment, backup power (obtained at considerable expense) is precious. The utility may have to pay far beyond "well" to buy it.
  • chrisco255 4y ago
    It's not short in a hurricane zone. Weeks of no power after a strong hit is fairly common.
• sgt101 4y ago
  I wouldn't want to pay that much because a stand alone battery probably costs less, but if I could pay $500 for some kit that let me use my tesla as a power source for my house at night I would be very interested. This would make sense to me as I have panels to charge it during the day, having a few KWH at night time would be pretty efficient. The stand alone batteries are too expensive right now.
• pengaru 4y ago
  > A nine kilowatt electric generator costs under a thousand dollars. What kind of idiot is going to shell out six grand just to drain his truck battery for the same purpose? The kind of idiot that wants to generate income through arbitrage by storing energy in his EV when prices are low and selling it back to the grid during peak hours when prices are high? Don't forget the kind of person buying this kind of vehicle today also probably has a multiple car garage.
  • causi 4y ago
    How long do you suppose it's going to take to make back their investment? For it to pay off in ten years they'd have to be making fifty dollars a month from arbitrage.
    • CyanLite4 4y ago
      People that buy $100k EVs aren’t worried about ROI. FWIW, Ford has sold out of these for the next 2 years, so they must be doing something right.
      • protomyth 4y ago
        Or very, very wrong, since it's Ford and they cannot meet demand for a truck.
        • vl 4y ago
          Even Tesla can’t meet demand for EVs.
          • protomyth 4y ago
            With all due respect, Ford has long experience in manufacturing and they are not meeting demand for the F150 Electric or the Maverick. They also had problems with the Bronco (non EV).
    • bryanlarsen 4y ago
• jillesvangurp 4y ago
  I think this is a actually a key selling point of this car: people are buying this specifically because they can run their house using it. Your assumption is that your battery is going to suffer enormously. That's probably not the case. Batteries do relatively well if you don't stress them with enormous loads. Relative to driving the vehicle, powering your house is a very light load. Ten days is quite long. You won't be driving that long on a single charge for 100kwh battery. And it would of course be highly unusual to be running your house for extended periods of time; at least not unintentionally. And even then it would not be worse than simply driving the car to the maximum range. You might want to drive to a supercharger after a few days. If they are still functioning of course. And if things get that bad, most petrol stations will also have issues powering their pumps. But if that somehow is a regular thing in your life, invest in some solar panels instead of a generator. That should cut down on the running cost for that truck as well.
• jayd16 4y ago
  I worry about keeping my Tesla topped up about as much as I worried about my previous gas cars. Six grand seems like a lot but if the price came down then I could see using the top half of the tank to shift grid power use to cheaper rated hours or use home solar later in the day.
• CyanLite4 4y ago
  The general public doesn’t understand lithium battery cycle life. $6k to connect a 100kWH+ battery to their house is a drop in the bucket to the $100k they paid for the vehicle, and compared to buying the batteries outright as a home backup option. It’s the killer app right now for EVs and homes with solar. A Tesla Powerwall is like $13k for 10kWh. You’re getting something 10x capacity at a fraction of the cost.
  • recuter 4y ago
    Here is a 5kWh powerwall type thing for $1,500: https://signaturesolar.com/shop-all/batteries/eg4-lifepower4/ https://signaturesolar.com/shop-all/batteries/eg4-lifepower4... Buy a nice server rack and three of the aforementioned and there's your "powerwall" for less than half the price.
    • driverdan 4y ago
      That doesn't include the charger, inverter, rack, or wiring. Add another $1500-2000 for all that.
      • recuter 4y ago
        Obviously sold as the $13K Tesla Powerwall doesn't include an inverter either. They upsell you to a "Powerwall+". Also: > Tesla’s residential energy products will be sold as a bundle and will exclusively work with one another. This means that Tesla Powerwalls will not work with other manufacturer’s solar panels. Additionally, Tesla will not sell any of its Solar products without a Powerwall,
        • 5d8767c68926 4y ago
          Are those the same solar panels that Walmart is suing Tesla for causing fires?
• matthewdgreen 4y ago
  First off, safely using a generator to power eg your home furnace requires some costly wiring and installation of a transfer switch (yes you can do it more jankily but let’s please not.) Moreover: this installation does not compete with the cheapest portable generator at Home Depot, I assume it competes with a dedicated standby generator. Those are much more expensive, and run closer to $3k without installation (which is way more: they require a pedestal and a bunch of hardwiring and a dedicated fuel tank/gas connect.) I looked into a standby generator after an all-day wintertime power outage: it was both annoying and cost-prohibitive. If I could protect my home pipes from freezing in such a future outage by using my existing vehicle, that would be amazing. My threat model here is not “prepper looking for weeks of regular grid independence”, it’s “cheap and clean way of keeping my pipes from freezing during a 1-3 day wintertime power outage.” If I can amortize the electrician cost of installing a charger while also getting this feature, that’s even better.
  • brightball 4y ago
    Exactly and on top of that, building in this capability as new battery technology emerges will only expand the benefit. Graphene Aluminum Ion batteries as well as solid state batteries are expected to both increase energy capacity and expand the lifetime of the batteries themselves. I'm not going to be a 1st year buyer of a Lightning but I'll probably be a buyer as soon as the newer batteries start getting introduced.
  • bryanlarsen 4y ago
    We just had a massive power outage last weekend. (In fact, there are still people without power). The neighbors inquired into the cost of a whole home natural gas generator. $15K for installation sometime this year, $25K to get it installed this week.
    • brianwawok 4y ago
      It should be <5k to install. Of course depending how far you need to go for the gas run etc.. but it's only maybe 1-2 hours work for someone with the gas line, and 1-2 hours work for an electrician. Source: Have a whole house gas generator
• bryanlarsen 4y ago
  10 days ago I had a 3 day power outage, and lost all the food in my fridge. Generators are a giant PITA. You need to use and maintain them regularly or they're going to be broken and filled with stale gas when you need them. For something you only use once a decade or so, that's a big ask. Better to have something you use daily, like your truck, so you know it works. A half charged vehicle is no problem during a grid failure. That's 150 miles. An EV gets better mileage in a traffic jam than it does at highway speeds, so it's a true 150 no matter road conditions. Also remember that you don't have to find a fast charger -- EV's can be trickle charged off a normal 115V outlet, and that's usually easier to find than gasoline during a crisis. All the gasoline stations around me last week either had multi-hour lineups or were out of gas.
  • brianwawok 4y ago
    I own EVs, though Tesla doesn't do this (they want you to do a powerwall instead, which starts at 10-20k). Instead, I have a whole house natural gas generator. No gas to go stale. It powers my entire house. And it costs similar to this. Maintence: Every 2-3 years, it needs an "oil/filter" change. I have never had one before this house, but wow it is nice. We seem to be on some flakey power lines, we have lost power ~8 times in the previous year, ranging in duration from 1 hour to 2 days.
    • giantg2 4y ago
      "Maintence: Every 2-3 years, it needs an "oil/filter" change." This seems suspect to me. The ones I've seen call for it once a year or every 24 hours of run time.
      • AshleyGrant 4y ago
        Every 24 hours of runtime would be insanely wasteful. A quick Google for a Generac manual shows they recommend annually or every 125 hours, whichever comes first. They do recommend an oil change after 30 hours to replace the break-in oil. The Onan/Cummins LP generator in my RV requires an oil change every 150 hours or annually, whichever comes first with the first oil change after 50 hours.
• dreamcompiler 4y ago
  True. Most of these truck owners when faced with an outage will simply run an extension cord from the 120v outlet on their truck to their refrigerator until the power comes back on. Nothing wrong with that solution and it costs $20.
  • throwaway5752 4y ago
    Exactly. One can live without AC for a few days almost anywhere in the US and deal with the discomfort. If you can power a refrigerator and then have a general purpose light / charging out, it will get most reasonable people through a multi-day outage and not be vulnerable to NG supply disruptions. A quick note: It should cost more than $20. When fridge compressor cycles on, it can draw up to 20A. Extension cord wire gauges are based on 1) length and 2) amperage and depending on home layout, you'd might get away with a 50 foot 12 gauge cord ($40). If it's 100 feet, you'd want 10 gauge ($100+). It'll vary by cord and refrigerator, and there are many extension cord sizing guides freely available.
    • sgarland 4y ago
      > it can draw up to 20A can being the operative word - the LRA (Locked Rotor Amps) of a typical fridge/freezer's compressor might be that high, but starting current is not unless something is hideously wrong. I've never metered mine, but I have ran three fridges and a deep freezer off of a 2200/1800 (start/run) watt generator with zero issues, and plenty of headroom left. The generator has tiny dip when the compressor kicks on, and then it jumps back. You are correct that sizing cords is very important, though, and something that most people don't do. Also if you have a roll-up extension cord (the kind with multiple outlets at the end), it's vital that it is completely unrolled when in use, so the cord doesn't heat itself. I run 12 gauge splitters --> 14 gauge for individual loads, but I also know exactly how much those loads are pulling, and have verified it's within safe limits for the wiring. It's worth remembering that a house's wiring is almost always 12 gauge, and is rated for 20 amps assuming the correct outlet.
      • dreamcompiler 4y ago
• crispyambulance 4y ago
  > ... risk being left with a half-charged vehicle during a grid failure. To be fair, most folks who own pickups usually own multiple vehicles as individuals, and that's not even counting the other household members. I don't know what they're getting at with "at scale", but it seems like a good idea for "rugged individuals" with a battery-powered big truck. What else are the going to do with a pristine, washed-every-week, empty pickup truck that never carries anything and is more of a status symbol than anything else?
• Teletour 4y ago
  I know a family in Canada who has frequently power outages. It would be perfect for them. Easy to use, easy to maintain and stabilisng their system. They like to drive trucks like these as well. Of course EVs might become a standard backup/stabilisation part in our ecosystem and currently everything ev is still more or less bleeding edge but why do you mind if people start investing in this type of technology over others? Shouldn't you be happy about it?
• aaaaaaaaata 4y ago
  > Nobody is going to be willing to not only put cycles on their battery but risk being left with a half-charged vehicle during a grid failure. Sure they will — especially the families that have 2-4 of these trucks, which are plentiful in areas you do not live.
• rgrieselhuber 4y ago
  > A nine kilowatt electric generator costs under a thousand dollars. Any links you can share?
  • sgarland 4y ago
    This is probably what they're referring to: https://www.harborfreight.com/9000-watt-gas-powered-portable-generator-carb-63968.html https://www.harborfreight.com/9000-watt-gas-powered-portable... It's Harbor Freight, so you get to roll the dice on whether or not it'll work when you need it to. It's also loud (like noise complaint from your neighbors loud).
    • rgrieselhuber 4y ago
      Ah, I was thinking it was a reference to some 9kwh inverter ('electric generator') for under $1K, which sounded incredible...
  • deleted 4y ago
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  • BenjiWiebe 4y ago
    I was going to share a link to a harbor freight 9kw generator for $869, but now I see that that is 9kw starting power and only 7.2kw continuous...
    • sgarland 4y ago
      That's true of any brand tbf. My 2.2 kW Honda is rated at 1.8 kW continuous, which conveniently is 15 A @ 120 VAC.
• sgarland 4y ago
  A 9 kW generator that costs $1000 is going to be an open-frame, bottom of the barrel model. It'll be loud as hell, won't have an inverter so it runs at 3600 RPM (or 1800 RPM if you're lucky enough to have a 4-pole) constantly regardless of load, and as others have pointed out, requires a lot of maintenance. Not to mention, ones that large usually weigh about 200 lbs / 90 kg, and are not frequently hooked into your house's circuit so you will have to haul it out and hook loads up. Hope you understand how to safely run extension cords with heavy loading. I have a 2.2 kW Honda that does have an inverter, is absurdly quiet, and sips fuel. I also have an extended fuel tank for it so it can run overnight. All of that, plus adequately sized extension cords, was somewhere around $2500. It's also still a pain in the ass to set up when it's necessary, but at least I get to run fridges, freezers, LAN, TV, fans, etc. I also have to do monthly load tests, source ethanol-free gas, rotate gas supplies, and practice running extension cords to everything so I'm not confused in the dark. Lest you think all of this is unnecessary prepper beliefs, I live in Texas (for now - about to move), and it has been required far more often than I'd like. A standby generator that can run an entire house will run you $15-20K with installation, and that assumes you have natural gas plumbed to your house already. If you don't, you'll have to bury a LPG tank, or have an unsightly blob in your yard. This feature of the Lightning is the major draw for me, and I am seriously considering it once they've proven themselves for a few years.
  • reacharavindh 4y ago
    A serious question. If power outages are that common that you need to have this backup, would you not consider a bank of LFP batteries and an inverter before you think of using your car for this? In case of a grid outage/emergency, having a car that is untethered to the house is handy right? It's not the same, but my parents back in India have a few Lead acid batteries hooked up to an inverter to supply backup power when power outage occurs (about once a week). They have been doing this for decades now. I'm just wondering why a larger scale version of this with LFP batteries and may be solar panels to charge them wouldn't work where you are..
    • _ea1k 4y ago
      It might make sense to have both. Its rare to see a home backup system that has as much capacity as this truck. It'd effectively extend your home capacity and also provide a resource that could be charged away from home. We don't have many grid outages here, but the ones that happen tend to happen around large weather disasters. Commercial areas, often with DCFC tend to get restored a little more quickly than more distant suburban residential power and tbh, most people aren't driving that much during those periods anyway.
• deleted 4y ago
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• natch 4y ago
  >Nobody is going to be willing to not only put cycles on their battery but risk being left with a half-charged vehicle You underestimate the optimistic zeal of LARPers, who will be smug about just having the possibility.
• tyingq 4y ago
  >He cannot possibly be that ignorant. Nobody is going to be willing to not only put cycles on their battery but risk being left with a half-charged vehicle during a grid failure. It seems like the context was small and medium farms, where that might be more palatable since they probably have several vehicles.
• myself248 4y ago
  > A nine kilowatt electric generator costs under a thousand dollars. For just the generator, yeah. Then you need cans for the fuel and somewhere to store it. And you need to maintain that fuel by periodically pouring it into a vehicle and refilling the cans. Even with preservative, it's good to do that yearly. If you don't own an ICE vehicle, I guess you have to find a neighbor who does, and who won't be suspicious that you're offering them a bunch of gallons of free gas? And even with all that, it still needs oil changes and test-runs, or it's liable to not work when you need it. And even with all THAT, most generators that large absolutely guzzle fuel. Ten or twenty gallons might get you a day, maybe two? And that's a LOT of fuel to store, when you consider having to refresh it. If you can just use the vehicle you already own, and the battery pack that you already charge, ALL those concerns go away. You've got tons of power. It's already proven to work. It's already wired into the house. And the little maintenance it needs, you're already doing because it's your daily driver. This approach is not without its downsides -- if you go out to run errands, the house loses power until you return -- but the benefits may outweigh that for a large number of people.
• _ea1k 4y ago
  > He cannot possibly be that ignorant. Nobody is going to be willing to not only put cycles on their battery but risk being left with a half-charged vehicle during a grid failure. Well, that cycle part is important, as I'm still not clear on the warranty implications of actually using this vehicle's battery for stationary storage. However, outside of that, I don't think its fair to call it ignorant. Grid emergencies are often related to excess consumption for really specific periods of time. Our local utility sends out alerts asking for reduced consumption during peak just to save them some $$$s, as spot prices can be very high for brief periods of time. We also have TOU plans available where the peak rate is more than $.20 higher than the off peak rate. There are plenty of people that would gladly pocket that difference in exchange for burning through ~25% of a battery. And because its not an outage, but rather a cost issue during peak, they'll just load back up right after the "emergency" subsides. I'd still really like to know what the warranty for this style of usage looks like.
• revnode 4y ago
  > What kind of idiot is going to shell out six grand just to drain his truck battery for the same purpose? This one, I already have. I paid more than that for two Tesla powerwalls. I use them for load shifting. I charge at night when electricity is cheap and use them during the day. They already paid for themselves in savings. Oh yeah, no more power outages either.
  • cfeduke 4y ago
    Same, though I also was due to replace my roof from 1991 and got a solar roof. It's great having a $0 electric bill every month and we've had four outages since my system went live and my house hasn't gone out at all. It'll be a few years before it pays for itself considering the price of the roof as part of the entire system - we live in a forest and power outages are very frequent so the cost for convenience is worth it.
  • driverdan 4y ago
    A dedicated house battery is not the same as using a vehicle battery.
  • causi 4y ago
    They already paid for themselves in savings. How? Where do you live that electricity is that expensive during the day and arbitrage rate is that high to create a thousand dollars a year in savings? I run my AC 24 hours a day at fifteen or more degrees below outdoor ambient on a decent sized house, with appliances that are better than twenty years old, and my total yearly electricity cost is under two grand. This math doesn't work.
    • revnode 4y ago
      > Where do you live that electricity is that expensive during the day and arbitrage rate is that high to create a thousand dollars a year in savings? I live in the US, where the federal government subsidized half the system cost (at least when I installed it) via tax credits. I save about a 100 bucks a month on electric, since I can charge my car at night at a discount, which requires a special meter enabled by the system.
• Neil44 4y ago
  You still need hardware in the house to power it from a generator, basically a switch with a safety interlock. If you just wire it up in a dumb fashon you are sending voltage back out of the house and down the street, with a wide veriety of untintended consequences possible there.
• MisterBastahrd 4y ago
  The kind who might be out of power for more than 3 weeks due to a common natural disaster, has two cars, and wants a backup to keep the stuff in his fridge and freezer cold after the local gasoline supply is depleted. Like folks who have been hit by a major hurricane. Everyone else, who has a gasoline generator, doesn't run them 24/7 unless they've got natural gas. They run them to keep their food cold and charge their phones then shut them off.
• Robotbeat 4y ago
  I would be willing to use some cycles if I’m remunerated. Do you know how much electricity costs during peak times in Ercot? Dollars per kilowatt-hour. I can work from home for a day or two if I get $100…
• deleted 4y ago
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• elif 4y ago
  On top of the $4k you also have to figure out how to get your power provider to agree to the change. For my solar system, i was lucky enough to get one of a few seats in my state before they were all taken. I highly doubt every energy provider is even prepared for this.