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By "demonstrating their skills" I meant demonstrate to what extent they have skills, not that they were all very skilled or could do the work. They were nonethe

By "demonstrating their skills" I meant demonstrate to what extent they have skills, not that they were all very skilled or could do the work. They were nonetheless able to prove what they did know. I've done hundreds of interviews as the interviewer. I've had people seriously panic maybe once or twice in that entire time. I've heard occasionally that the rates for other interviewers were higher (but still low), if that's the case then they just sucked at interviewing. Where did therapists come into it? I've never heard of anyone going to a therapist to pass coding interviews, that would be ridiculous. Learning to control your emotions is something people are meant to learn as children. It's a standard skill you're supposed to have to interact with others, like basic politeness. If you're having breakdowns as adults then it's expected that the situation is really intense, like the death of a loved one, breakdown in a relationship etc. Job interviewing is a normal part of life and shouldn't be as stressful as those things. "It's already bizarre that candidates with many years of experience in the field have to study intensely for job interviews." The whole "cramming leetcode" thing is way overblown, or possibly a modern feedback loop in which crammers are making it harder to detect genuine skill and experience. Again I've done a lot of interviews and nobody ever mentioned having to prepare for them. That idea seems to be a relatively recent idea (last ~10 years or so) and is probably a result of so many people competing for very highly paid jobs at a small number of firms. Normal software jobs should ask people to demonstrate their skills, but it shouldn't be something that requires exam-like prep for any working programmer.

lapcat 4y ago
> I've had people seriously panic maybe once or twice in that entire time. I think you're making too much of the example of the candidate crying. That is indeed an outlier case, not the norm. But the crying case is an undeniable sign that job candidates can get extremely anxious during an interview, in a way that affects their performance. The issue isn't "breakdowns" per se, the issue is that coding tests are testing anxiety level rather than skill level. Ironically, most job candidates are in fact "controlling their emotions", as you say: they may show no outward sign of breakdown or panic, but on the inside, their mind and stomach are churning heavily, and this makes it difficult to perform at their normal level. Everyone is trying to act calm and collected during an interview, but often it's merely an act, and they're actually not calm and collected at all. What you perceive from the outside as incompetence may be a whole different story on the inside for the candidate. https://www.engr.ncsu.edu/news/2020/11/11/tech-sector-job-interviews-assess-anxiety-not-software-skills-2/ https://www.engr.ncsu.edu/news/2020/11/11/tech-sector-job-in... Anxiety isn't all or nothing. There's a wide spectrum between totally calm and crying breakdown. When there's a crying breakdown, it's easy to recognize, but anxiety is not so easy to recognize if there's not a breakdown. > I've done a lot of interviews and nobody ever mentioned having to prepare for them. Why would they mention it, even if they did prepare? > That idea seems to be a relatively recent idea (last ~10 years or so) and is probably a result of so many people competing for very highly paid jobs at a small number of firms. Regardless, we're living in the present now, under current conditions, not living in the past, so for the purposes of getting a job, it doesn't really matter when the idea originated.
- native_samples 4y ago
  After they were hired, and we were talking about interview design, and they were proposing questions harder than mine? Seems reasonable to mention if they had to prep then. Later I also pushed back on proposals for things like homework, but others seemed to find that idea acceptable. I guess they'd have mentioned it then. You seem to be suggesting something totally unfalsifiable - that candidates who do a bad job aren't actually bad programmers, but are just nervous inside in undetectable ways. There's no way I or anyone else can argue against this notion because there's no way to prove a negative like that, but suffice it to say that the sort of issues I'd associate with nervousness - minor slips that they then notice and correct, stumbles, brief moments of forgetfulness etc - are not why people tend to fail interviews. They fail interviews because their coding skills suck.
  - lapcat 4y ago
    > You seem to be suggesting something totally unfalsifiable - that candidates who do a bad job aren't actually bad programmers, but are just nervous inside in undetectable ways. Heh. It's only unfalsifiable if you ignore a person's previous experience and accomplishments, refusing to acknowledge anything other than your own interview as an accurate gauge of the person's skills. Also, I'm literally telling you that it happens to me. (And I've heard many people say it happens to them.) So either I'm a liar, or you have to admit that it happens. Go ahead and call me a liar if that's what you want to believe, but I'm not even trying to get a job anymore. I'm happily self-employed now, and my customers also seem very happy with my coding skills. The term "control your emotions" is somewhat vague. You can hide your emotions, but that doesn't mean you're not experiencing the emotions. An extreme example of that is if you "put on a brave face" after a personal tragedy. You may not cry and break down, but that doesn't mean the sadness doesn't affect you severely. The reason I mentioned therapy is that you'd probably need therapy in order to somehow train yourself to not even feel the emotions in the first place in situations where they arise automatically for you, i.e., to not have certain phobias at all. > the sort of issues I'd associate with nervousness Have you considered that you might not have a full understanding and appreciation for human psychology and the wide variance among humans?

lapcat 4y ago

> I've had people seriously panic maybe once or twice in that entire time. I think you're making too much of the example of the candidate crying. That is indeed an outlier case, not the norm. But the crying case is an undeniable sign that job candidates can get extremely anxious during an interview, in a way that affects their performance. The issue isn't "breakdowns" per se, the issue is that coding tests are testing anxiety level rather than skill level. Ironically, most job candidates are in fact "controlling their emotions", as you say: they may show no outward sign of breakdown or panic, but on the inside, their mind and stomach are churning heavily, and this makes it difficult to perform at their normal level. Everyone is trying to act calm and collected during an interview, but often it's merely an act, and they're actually not calm and collected at all. What you perceive from the outside as incompetence may be a whole different story on the inside for the candidate. https://www.engr.ncsu.edu/news/2020/11/11/tech-sector-job-interviews-assess-anxiety-not-software-skills-2/ https://www.engr.ncsu.edu/news/2020/11/11/tech-sector-job-in... Anxiety isn't all or nothing. There's a wide spectrum between totally calm and crying breakdown. When there's a crying breakdown, it's easy to recognize, but anxiety is not so easy to recognize if there's not a breakdown. > I've done a lot of interviews and nobody ever mentioned having to prepare for them. Why would they mention it, even if they did prepare? > That idea seems to be a relatively recent idea (last ~10 years or so) and is probably a result of so many people competing for very highly paid jobs at a small number of firms. Regardless, we're living in the present now, under current conditions, not living in the past, so for the purposes of getting a job, it doesn't really matter when the idea originated.

native_samples 4y ago
After they were hired, and we were talking about interview design, and they were proposing questions harder than mine? Seems reasonable to mention if they had to prep then. Later I also pushed back on proposals for things like homework, but others seemed to find that idea acceptable. I guess they'd have mentioned it then. You seem to be suggesting something totally unfalsifiable - that candidates who do a bad job aren't actually bad programmers, but are just nervous inside in undetectable ways. There's no way I or anyone else can argue against this notion because there's no way to prove a negative like that, but suffice it to say that the sort of issues I'd associate with nervousness - minor slips that they then notice and correct, stumbles, brief moments of forgetfulness etc - are not why people tend to fail interviews. They fail interviews because their coding skills suck.
- lapcat 4y ago
  > You seem to be suggesting something totally unfalsifiable - that candidates who do a bad job aren't actually bad programmers, but are just nervous inside in undetectable ways. Heh. It's only unfalsifiable if you ignore a person's previous experience and accomplishments, refusing to acknowledge anything other than your own interview as an accurate gauge of the person's skills. Also, I'm literally telling you that it happens to me. (And I've heard many people say it happens to them.) So either I'm a liar, or you have to admit that it happens. Go ahead and call me a liar if that's what you want to believe, but I'm not even trying to get a job anymore. I'm happily self-employed now, and my customers also seem very happy with my coding skills. The term "control your emotions" is somewhat vague. You can hide your emotions, but that doesn't mean you're not experiencing the emotions. An extreme example of that is if you "put on a brave face" after a personal tragedy. You may not cry and break down, but that doesn't mean the sadness doesn't affect you severely. The reason I mentioned therapy is that you'd probably need therapy in order to somehow train yourself to not even feel the emotions in the first place in situations where they arise automatically for you, i.e., to not have certain phobias at all. > the sort of issues I'd associate with nervousness Have you considered that you might not have a full understanding and appreciation for human psychology and the wide variance among humans?