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Ford’s electric pickup can power a house for days

247 points by helsinkiandrew 4y ago

s17n 4y ago
The comparison to the Powerwall is certainly appropriate given the subject of the article, but I think the author should have also included the battery capacity and price of one of Tesla's vehicles to give a sense of how much Ford is advancing the state of the art.
jedberg 4y ago
So it sounds like they want to design the truck to send power to the grid when needed. I don't know about you, but in a blackout I'd want my truck fully charged, and not being remotely drained by the grid operator.
no-s 4y ago
> Transforming an F-150 Lightning into a backup generator means you can keep the lights on during blackouts. > ... 9.6 kilowatts of carbon-free electricity generated onboard... fail. it’s a mobile battery, not a generator. For a modest extra few $1000s it can be grid-tied and used as a battery backup. I predict grid-tying will not look like a virtue when the public utility decides to tap into the owner’s battery to make up for generation malinvestment...
- jylam 4y ago
  Isn't a battery a type of generator, to be pedantic ? There is not electricity stored in a battery, just a chemical state that happens to generate electricity.
  - paskozdilar 4y ago
    While that is true from the perspective of electrical engineering, I think it is reasonable to expect that "generator" colloquially refers to an engine that converts fuel into electricity. Since you can't really "pour fuel" into a battery (at least that I know of), I personally wouldn't call it a "generator".
    - Gigachad 4y ago
      The most charitable interpretation is that “generator” just refers to something that keeps your house powered when the grid goes down. It serves exactly the same purpose to the end user as a real generator so it doesn’t really matter what happens behind the scenes. And that it’s carbon free because in theory it could be charged by purely renewables, especially likely if you have personal solar, vs a real generator which is only burning fuel.
    - greggsy 4y ago
      It’s just a clever use of the term for editorial value. I think it works at communicating the use case in the article. No need to ver analyse it.
    - DarylZero 4y ago
      Fuel cells are batteries that you pour fuel into.
  - 2000UltraDeluxe 4y ago
    Energy converter, if you want to be pedantic. For practical purposes it's storage.
- marcinzm 4y ago
  >I predict grid-tying will not look like a virtue when the public utility decides to tap into the owner’s battery to make up for generation malinvestment... Then limit or block exporting out to the grid.
  - more_corn 4y ago
    You need this anyway for safety.
    - no-s 4y ago
      Also, safety will probably also dictate you must wait for the utility to finish using your truck battery before you disconnect it. You’ll probably have to request a disconnect and wait for generation or OtherPeoplesStorage to come online…
- greggsy 4y ago
  It’s true that a generator converts motive energy into electricity, but in the context of a worksite, or a household, it fulfils the same outcome. The article is being clever and recontextualising the concept, because that’s what cements a use case in peoples minds.
  - no-s 4y ago
    > The article is being clever and recontextualising the concept, because that’s what cements a use case in peoples minds. Awesome! Gotta remember that line when I make shit up! Hurrah for This brave new world where a sufficiently recontextualised concept reveals a whole new consensually derived factual basis for persuasion.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- pengaru 4y ago
  > I predict grid-tying will not look like a virtue when the public utility decides to tap into the owner’s battery to make up for generation malinvestment It sure looks like a virtue when the public utility already taps into grid-tied rooftop PV arrays, generating income for homeowners and cleaning up the grid. If adding energy storage to homes allows the grid to require less fossil-fuel burning peaker plants, while generating income for those homeowners, why wouldn't this be rightfully seen as a virtue? My main concern is that the compensation be appropriate for the added wear and tear on the grid-tied EV batteries. Assuming this is addressed, it seems like a good thing.
  - no-s 4y ago
    > If adding energy storage to homes allows the grid to require less fossil-fuel burning peaker plants, while generating income for those homeowners, why wouldn't this be rightfully seen as a virtue? Hmm, imagine the scenario where the truck owner inconveniently runs out of battery charge on the highway because the utility depleted it in favor of increasing generation. While all of your scenarios may seem virtuous to you, it’s not necessarily incorporating the perspective of the person who actually paid $1000s for the privilege of being left on the side of the road… To me it feels like a bummer. Not to you?
    - pengaru 4y ago
      I don't really understand where you're coming from here. In the hypothetical situation you describe where the person is exclusively relying on this grid-tied vehicle for all their transportation needs as well, I'm inclined to say they made a poor choice. A lot of Americans have multiple vehicles, it's those I expect to most exploit this option. Driving a giant pickup truck for all your needs isn't particularly pleasant, it's kind of an ideal vehicle to leave grid-tied most the time until you need to haul something big/heavy/filthy.
      - no-s 4y ago
        It’s not hypothetical that a person would buy a pickup truck and expect to use it at all, heheh. You chose to reframe it as “the person is exclusively relying on this grid-tied vehicle for all their transportation needs as well”, which is framing an argument I did not make. I think that’s some kind of rhetorical fallacy on your part. Please help me to recontextualize such an inane counter. It’s like you have no response at all and just reframe things so you’ll have something to refute. That’s dishearteningly dishonest for HN.
- 0daystock 4y ago
  I wonder why you're being downvoted, because what you say is quite true. Recently, I declined purchasing a solar system for my home, because it would not provide energy independence when the grid is down as I had envisioned. Instead, it required a device from the power company which would "allow" me to use my own energy storage, but also give them full access to the same resources. I saw this for the obvious scam it was - power companies sharing the burden of costly infrastructure with consumers through clever marketing and federal tax "discounts". It's not a stretch of imagination to apply this logic to other independent energy mechanisms like gasoline engine cars and imagine the implications on our autonomy.
causi 4y ago
“At scale, when these vehicles are enabled to send energy back to the grid, flex alerts and notices of grid emergencies will be a thing completely of the past,” He cannot possibly be that ignorant. Nobody is going to be willing to not only put cycles on their battery but risk being left with a half-charged vehicle during a grid failure. Transforming a Lightning into a home generator requires Ford’s 80-amp charging station and a $3,895 home integration system from Sunrun Inc. Installation cost for the Sunrun system varies according to the home and location. The charging station comes with the extended-range version of the Lightning; it’s a $1,310 option for buyers of the standard 230 mile-range version of the pickup. A nine kilowatt electric generator costs under a thousand dollars. What kind of idiot is going to shell out six grand just to drain his truck battery for the same purpose?
- Gigachad 4y ago
  Grid failures are usually very short. If paid well, most people would be fine to use their batteries to smooth out a 10 minute failure while backup generation is turning on.
  - kylecordes 4y ago
    Where I live in the Midwest, power failures are very rare. When they happen it is usually amid a major thunderstorm or snowstorm, affecting thousands of customers, with obvious obstacles to getting crews out to fix things. Power goes out... it might last 8 minutes, it might last 8 hours, it might last days. At that moment, backup power (obtained at considerable expense) is precious. The utility may have to pay far beyond "well" to buy it.
  - chrisco255 4y ago
    It's not short in a hurricane zone. Weeks of no power after a strong hit is fairly common.
- sgt101 4y ago
  I wouldn't want to pay that much because a stand alone battery probably costs less, but if I could pay $500 for some kit that let me use my tesla as a power source for my house at night I would be very interested. This would make sense to me as I have panels to charge it during the day, having a few KWH at night time would be pretty efficient. The stand alone batteries are too expensive right now.
foobarian 4y ago
> “That new customer to trucks is really being brought in, in my mind, by the Mega Power Frunk and by the Pro Power Onboard,” she says. “And some people are just truly, really interested in this product as a backup generator.” I don't know, we're an average family with a mid-size SUV and looking around for EVs, there is not much that is not a downgrade in capability. Model 3s are too small compared to a SUV, while X and Y cost a 100 grand. I wonder if this F150 interest it's because it's at last a big EV at a very affordable price. (Edit: I misread the X&Y costs: X is over 100, Y is 50-60)
- rcMgD2BwE72F 4y ago
  >Model 3s are too small compared to a SUV, while X and Y cost a 100 grand Uh? Model Y AWD Long Range costs $64,990 in the US before gas savings and incentives. https://www.tesla.com/modely/design#overview https://www.tesla.com/modely/design#overview
  - foobarian 4y ago
    My apologies, I must have looked at the Model X data twice. I'll make a note.
- ubercore 4y ago
  Y is getting more expensive, but is definitely still below 100k
- bryanlarsen 4y ago
  At current gas prices, the lifetime TCO of a $70K Model Y is the same as a $40K gasoline SUV.
  - SEJeff 4y ago
    That’s not taking into account the lower maintenance costs is it? Massively fewer moving parts in an electric vehicle “engine” aka drive train means less things to break. The recommended service for a Model 3 or Model Y is every two years. No oil changes or alternators or fan belts etc.
mikedelago 4y ago
I'm more interested in the range extender[0] that was patented by ford recently. Body-on-frame vehices seem like a no-brainer case for EV's, since they're typically larger and have more space on the frame for batteries, and having a camping/off road vehicle that also has a range extender sounds like a great idea to me. I've really been thinking of getting one after my 2019 crosstrek is paid off, but that won't be for a couple of years. [0] https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a34277725/ford-f-150-range-extender-ev-pickup-patent/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a34277725/ford-f-150-range...
- jdcaron 4y ago
  It's absolute bonker, the patent got granted. The current state of the patent system is a complete joke.
  - runnerup 4y ago
    Completely agree. My coworkers at my current and past job keep patenting ridiculous shit which should be, at most, a blog entry. Not even a conference talk. Definitely not a patent. We should really bring forth exponential fees for patents and copyright.
    - adolph 4y ago
      Here is the patent in question. https://patents.google.com/patent/US10773602B2/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US10773602B2/en
- pitaj 4y ago
  Oh nice, it's a generator module that turns your EV into a hybrid for long-haul trips. I've been talking about this kind of thing for years. Glad it's finally an option. ~~While this appears to be just extra battery, which is fine, I'd really love to see a generator module that turns your EV into a hybrid for long-haul trips.~~
  - mikedelago 4y ago
abruzzi 4y ago
while I don't see me buying one of these, its the most interesting auto feature I've seen in a very long time. I don't want backup power for when the grid fails, I want primary power for a small cabin I'm building far from available grid power. (I can get grid power run to my land, but it would cost me way more than this Ford to run the lines.)
- thedougd 4y ago
  The Hybrid F-150 with the generator option may be a much better option in that situation. A spare can could prevent you from running out of power and ending up stranded. Or you could drive out to quickly refuel. https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a35152752/powered-house-ford-f-150-hybrid/ https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a35152752/powered-hous...
- lm28469 4y ago
  You could probably get a gas powered generator and use it all your life for that usage while still polluting less than if you bought a whole ass 3 tonne car
  - epistasis 4y ago
    A 1 ton gas car is going to pollute far far more than a 3 ton EV charged from the average American electricity mix, and that mix is not particularly clean, even.
  - abruzzi 4y ago
    Personally, I’d prefer not to have a generator nearby. Storing fuel, noise, exhaust—all things I’d prefer to avoid. And as I said, this is not the vehicle that will solve the problem for me, since nobody yet makes an EV that would work for my usage, but when they do make he EV I want, this will be the primary feature I want. I was planning to setup solar at the location to charge a small battery for an hour or so of power a day if I spend a week at the location, I can plug the truck into the solar to trickle charge during the day.
- Spunkie 4y ago
  I'm interested in an EV for similar reasons but I also live in a remote mountain area where batteries, generators, and even propane tanks grow legs. So the fact that my entire off grid battery system would travel with me when I'm not at home is a huge benefit.
stevespang 4y ago
phreenet 4y ago
Powering a house for days is a very broad statement. Does this include things are that electrified such as a central air conditioner and/or heat pump? Electric water heater? Electric clothes dryer? Maybe the last two would be considered a luxury in an emergency situation but I've lost power for 3+ days twice in the past two years during a major snow/ice storm. It's brutal not having a heat source and if you live in a hot climate I'm sure it's equally brutal in the summer.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  That's a good point. It really depends on usage, though it's not unfair to just use the average when writing an article. And by that standard, 'a few days' is probably fair. During the winter, that kind of battery capacity could power us for a couple weeks. Everything other than the furnace blower is natural gas. During the summer, ... well, fortunately we don't need air conditioning here to survive (one-off 117F events notwithstanding).
- colechristensen 4y ago
  The extended range version has a 131 kWh battery, the average American household uses ~900 kWh per month. So yes, it could power your heating or cooling for days in addition to everything else. A big home central air system will pull 5 kW and won’t run 100% of the time.
  - phreenet 4y ago
    kWh is power over time. When planning a power backup solution you have to account for spike loads, building code inspectors will insist on it. For an average central air conditioning system the outdoor refrigerant compressor has a locked rotor starting amp requirement of ~80A (typically). According to Ford the max amp feed back to your home from the truck is 80A. Building code will let you hook up your outdoor unit only in that case, the inside air handler will not be allowed because (assuming internal is 15A) you would be asking for 95A. You will most likely require either load shed devices or a transfer switch which will most likely not include your whole home or your AC/HeatPump. At least by building code.
0daystock 4y ago
So can a diesel or propane generator, and they can do it indefinitely, and for much cheaper. EVs (and consumer solar to a large extent) are an elaborate and clever ruse to externalize the costs of maintaining a weak and aging power infrastructure grid on to consumers while actually reducing energy independence (reliance on rare and expensive parts to fix batteries and proprietary equipment). The environmental "benefits" are far from a foregone conclusion also - how many precious metals are mined under slave-labor conditions to create battery storage? What happens to them en masse at end of life? Sure makes for great virtue signaling to drive a 3/4 ton "electric" truck though. The smug feelings EV owners enjoy apparently suspend all logic and common sense.
markstos 4y ago
The energy it takes to fill up the tank in this vehicle once could power a house for a week. Wow. Every household driving an F150 would appear to the grid like bring 7x houses online. It certainly puts the efficiency of writing a bike for short trips in perspective.
- ale42 4y ago
  Writing or riding? :)
- Mvandenbergh 4y ago
  The grid is sized on peak rather than average loads and at every voltage level spends many hours a day comfortably below a third of its capacity almost everywhere. In places with non-electric heating it can easily be at single digit % load factor on a cold night. DC fast chargers are challenging for local grids but home / office based AC chargers with smart charging don't really contribute to grid loading because they only draw substantial power during non-congested periods.
  - WorldMaker 4y ago
    Yes, it is useful to remember that peak load on the Grid is often dominated by/built for industrial users that generally keep somewhat strict 9-5 business days and evenings/weekends rarely see anything close to that same peak. It's why power utilities have almost always had different rates for Peak and Non-Peak electric usage (to incentivize more non-peak usage). Most EVs even have smart modes that let them schedule their charges to best take advantage of cheaper off-peak electricity pricing.
- csours 4y ago
  I'm curious how this looks in another context. According to the EIA in 2018 the average Texas home used 14,112 kWh a year. The EPA/Monroney window sticker for the Ford Lightning claims 49 kWh / 100 miles, so about 1 kWh for 2 miles. So you could drive approximately 28,000 miles on the same power that a home consumes. Does my math make sense? Did I miss something?
- 4y ago
pfdietz 4y ago
I wonder if aluminum-air primary batteries could be useful for home backup. The energy stored in aluminum anodes is very large.
kkfx 4y ago
I have a small p.v. with lithium (BYD LiFeP) backup, just to ensure fridge/freezer/home IT and phones/light/VMC in case of outage, AC-coupled classic inverter to do more and recharge in that case. Honestly IF Vehicle2Loads systems became spread AND an open standard I might evaluate them because EVs are NOT cheap and NOT cheaper than ICE so far, but probably they will, for artificial or natural reasons, or anyway due to lack of gasoline/gas they will be needed anyway. Surely the claim of powering for days is a bit exaggerated, more than a bit, but surely with a p.v. combined might be a way to save money in case of very unstable grids witch again is not the case so far but probably will due to various factors... One thing I doubt is the vehicle to grid application for MANY reasons like: - inverters too small and not quick enough to stabilize the grid - I doubt any operator accept energy injections from countless set of moving inverters, home p.v. is normally checked BEFORE allowing to connect to the grid, vehicles move can't be checked up front - I doubt owners want to give their energy to the grid from expensive batteries
- lucb1e 4y ago
  > - I doubt owners want to give their energy to the grid from expensive batteries Well, of course it would have to make financial sense. Since you want those batteries anyway for driving long distances (say, more than twice the distance of a regular commute is not something most people do daily, but they'll want to be able to go quite far so most cars have quite big batteries), that is a sunk cost. Might as well put them to use on days where you don't want to drive far and electricity is expensive (no sun or wind, or high gas prices or so). > EVs are NOT cheap and NOT cheaper than ICE so far That surprises me. You say you've got a "small" PV installation, how small is small? From what I've heard of PV installation owners with EVs, the per-kilometer cost over the lifetime of the car is much lower, you just have to be able to invest in (or loan) the up-front costs of both and that's what makes it prohibitive still. Does the math not work out for you in that way?
  - kkfx 4y ago
    I'm in France, if that matter, small in my case mean 5kW, but that's not the reason, the reasons are: - I already have ICEs cars (two actually) 4x4 and living in the Alps where a 4x4 in winter is very comfy - at actual rates, and re-sale values (witch is practically zero for EVs here) amortize the price of available 4x4 EVs is simply fantasy - at my actual car usage (not that much WFH and doung far less trips than before) amortize the price of available 4x4 EVs is simply fantasy Essentially my ICEs cars work flawlessly and STILL have a re-sale value, a new EVs, a little one, little in price terms, but not so little to be unusable here, perhaps can be paid back in the near future, still not now, surely not a model X or a Volvo. My math simply do not count just energy prices, especially since now/so far I travel not enough, but the TCO. With my small p.v. I can power my house "A-class" i.e. new, insulated very well etc, for almost all loads, water heater system is a big enough cumulus that does not need energy at night, heat-pump (just ~1kW) and classic resistance, so if the Sun shine I can go for resistance or resistance+heat pump, if not but still there is a bit of Sun the heat pump only. It's driven by the inverter so regulate itself depending on current home micro-grid load. Cooking does not demand so much, washing machine, dishwasher etc can normally both run 100% on self-consumption when the Sun shine. Looking back, now, I would made an 8kW p.v. I have enough space for it, but back than just few years ago I do not think that was needed...
thehappypm 4y ago
Surprised at the negativity. This is great IMO! I just bought a house and am surprised by how crappy all the options for backup power generation are. Cheapo generator: allows you to plug in some stuff but it’s very ad hoc, needs some light maintenance. Definitely good in a pinch but it’s not gonna power your house or even make it easy to keep your lights on. Expensive generator, wired into house electrical system: great stuff but very expensive, and still requires maintenance. Powerwall: low maintenance, terrific user experience, however exorbitantly expensive and also won’t really help in a prolonged outage.
- maxerickson 4y ago
  I am curious to hear of hands on experience with http://www.generlink.com/ http://www.generlink.com/ . It is a medium power transfer switch that installs behind the electric meter, meaning that the existing panel can be used to select loads. With a lower quality generator, you probably get ~3kW for less than $5000.
  - wrycoder 4y ago
    7.5KW Generac $2000 plus installation https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200665207_200665207 https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200665207_20...
  - rsync 4y ago
    I really dislike the complexity of the automatic transfer solutions and I especially dislike the concept of preferred breakers or sub panels for generator use, etc. Instead, just buy the $30 metal lockout tab for your panel and wire your generator right into the main panel and be done with it. So. Much. Simpler. Power goes out, you flip the lockout over and manually start the generator. Worried about loads ? Fine - while the panel is open, flip off your dryer 30a and … ? In reality, load is not an issue - a generator with 100amp breaker will power your entire house. (I even tried to break it - ran dryer, 20amp microwave, toaster and kicked on a water pump … no issue)
    - gautamcgoel 4y ago
_ea1k 4y ago
Still absent from the article is any mention of how the warranty is handled for a vehicle being used heavily for this purpose.
jiveturkey42 4y ago
"Do you really need to do X when you could easily do A,B,C and get Y?" Sometimes things are just fun, interesting, and cool
lizardactivist 4y ago
I guess that's interesting. But I wouldn't exactly look at that metric when deciding to buy an electric vehicle.
- etskinner 4y ago
  Why not?
- neogodless 4y ago
  If you wouldn't use it, it wouldn't be a part of your decision-making... but there are a very large number of consumers of pickup trucks (and future electric vehicles) who are, as it turns out, not you, and a lot of them would benefit from this feature.
gsibble 4y ago
Blackouts are not climate driven. We are retiring unfavorable sources of energy like coal and nuclear faster than we are bringing new sources of green energy online. It's fucking stupid. edit: According to the WSJ, the coming blackouts this summer are due to Green Climate Policies, not climate change: https://www.wsj.com/articles/americas-summer-of-rolling-blackouts-green-energy-grid-north-american-electric-reliability-corporation-11653683348?cx_testId=3&cx_testVariant=cx_2&cx_artPos=1&mod=WTRN#cxrecs_s https://www.wsj.com/articles/americas-summer-of-rolling-blac... This is a self inflicted wound due to bad policy.
- dewey 4y ago
  > Blackouts are not climate driven. That's a bit of an absolute statement. Blackouts can happen for a lot of reasons, some of them are related to climate and climate change. Bigger weather events like floods and windows can take out power lines or dams easily.
  - symesc 4y ago
    I believe the original statement is correct. Blackouts are not climate driven. Blackouts can be weather driven.
    - dewey 4y ago
      I don't think it makes sense to see them as disconnected. Example: "Climate change leads to more extreme weather" - World Meteorological Organization Source: https://public.wmo.int/en/media/press-release/weather-related-disasters-increase-over-past-50-years-causing-more-damage-fewer https://public.wmo.int/en/media/press-release/weather-relate...
      - gsibble 4y ago
        Sigh. As with many things, we don't really know what is and isn't caused by "climate change." Why for instance does CA now have so many fires but TX has fewer? Could it be climate change? Sure. Could it be the major differences CA enacted around forest management that TX didn't? Sure. But all you ever hear about is climate change. It's hysteria and it covers up other real issues.
anarticle 4y ago
I don't think I want my powerwall to leave when the power is out if I need to run to a store or anything else. There are great reasons to install your backup power.
- kibwen 4y ago
  You can have both, with the car serving as extra capacity when it's not out running to the store. Heck, drive your car somewhere that has power, charge it, then drive it back to refill your home batteries.
hunterb123 4y ago
So you drain the battery of your mode of transportation in an emergency or you do it in non emergencies and dwindle away your cycle lifetime? And title should be "will power" not "can power" as its not in production.
criddell 4y ago
You can do something similar with a Prius. Turns out a Prius has a pretty efficient generator in it. > As long as it has fuel, the Prius can produce at least three kilowatts of continuous power, which is adequate to maintain a home's basic functions. https://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/02/automobiles/02POWER.html https://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/02/automobiles/02POWER.html
- WhompingWindows 4y ago
  This is an old article, it's 15 years old which makes it ancient in the battery world. I have a Prius from that generation and mine doesn't have V2G. I can't find any numbers, how many Priuses actually have V2G capability?
  - criddell 4y ago
    It's always been done by connecting an inverter to the big Prius battery. Here's a link to one company that sells the kits: https://www.plugoutpower.com/ https://www.plugoutpower.com/
    - everybodyknows 4y ago
      Don't see anything on that page about consequences for your Toyota warranty. Assuming it's invalidated, this looks like a solution for owners of older hybrids only.
ag56 4y ago
Surprised there’s no discussion on the price delta here - I could buy 10x power-walls for $110k, or 1x E F150 for $40k and get a free truck thrown in. As someone with a large house who just investigated a hybrid power walls + gas generator + solar backup solution and didn’t go through with it due to cost, this is huge. I am literally considering buying an F150 to just keep parked stationary behind my garage.
- surfaceofthesun 4y ago
  My understanding is the more natural comparison is between the ~$80k truck with the power walls since it allows the backup power solution vs manually plugging things in via extension cord. Engineering Explained had a good video about it. https://youtu.be/ATAFIoXTEe8 https://youtu.be/ATAFIoXTEe8
  - ag56 4y ago
    Thanks. But even at $80k it’s a no brainer. The hybrid solution I vetoed came in at $130k! EDIT: To expand on that, only about $40k was batteries. After an initial period would fall back to (large) generator and only certain areas of house powered. I’d have to check the math, but an E F150 with a much smaller generator would be both cheaper and power the whole house indefinitely.
    - bradfa 4y ago
      It depends on your use case. If your use case is emergency backup power, then yeah the truck is the hands down winner. But if your use case is to load shift to minimize costs then buying a slightly smaller fixed location (ie: powerwall) battery bank which is always able to be on-line will likely make more sense, since once you drive the truck somewhere it's no longer attached to the house. It depends on how your electricity generation, distribution, and consumption works for your own location. But also, holy cow! $130k in powerwalls is a LOT of powerwall!
      - garciasn 4y ago
john61 4y ago
This illustrates what energy waste these cars are. Disgusting in times of climate change.
- kibwen 4y ago
  Every gas truck replaced by an electric truck is an improvement over the status quo. Americans are in love with trucks, and the ones most in love with their trucks are the ones most primed by their media to resist measures to address climate change, so if this can get them on board with electrification then it will be an incredible victory.
  - theshrike79 4y ago
    Ford went all out with the F-150 Lightning, they put their A-team on it and actually made a truck that non-truck people might want too. Especially when it's fully compatible with the huge 3rd party addon inventory for the F-150.
    - euroderf 4y ago
      Presumably this includes fuzzy dice!
HPsquared 4y ago
Advantage: you can leave the house to get more electricity. Disadvantage: while you are away from the house, it gets no power.
cmrdporcupine 4y ago
Power outage at my house right now and I have my fridge running off the 1500W outlet on my Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. Only an 8kWH battery but it’s good enough to run the fridge just wish I could run my well pump as well because no running water really is the worst. And when the battery depletes the cars ICE kicks in as a generator. This kind of thing is only going to get more necessary as the weather becomes more volatile. This outage is likely fallout from the historic storm that went through Ontario and Quebec a bit over a week ago.
- danans 4y ago
  Hmm, my Outlander PHEV doesn't have the 1500W outlet - I must have a lower trim. Cool that you can do it though. I believe there was a demonstration of using this vehicle as a backup generator during an outage, but I don't think it was ever commercialized.
  - cmrdporcupine 4y ago
    Yeah it's annoying it's only on the upper trims. I pushed my wife to spring for the upper trim and while I find many things about this vehicle disappointing (compared to my Volt which is far superior, technically), the outlets are handy. The thing is though that the Outlander has a CHADeMO port (strangely, I can't imagine ever using it to charge). CHADeMO is bidirectional. In theory a vehicle-to-house system could be built with it, providing 400V DC which you could run through whatever inverter you want. I say in theory because it doesn't seem like there are commercial products out there that will do this at this time. And CHADeMO is now a dead standard. But YouTuber sensation Benjamin Nelson has done it DIY with his iMiEV: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBV9CIVN0fs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBV9CIVN0fs ... but I can't say personally I'm eager to DIY it myself, because, well, 400V is scary. My power is now back on :-)
    - danans 4y ago
      > The thing is though that the Outlander has a CHADeMO port (strangely, I can't imagine ever using it to charge). I read that it was a requirement by the Japanese government to have Bi-di charging to prepare for situations where the grid went down due to emergencies (i.e. earthquakes). It's pretty silly for rapid charging though, since you should only add 80% to a measly 8kWh battery. I've done it just to entertain myself when I run across a CHADeMO Electrify America station. > Benjamin Nelson has done it DIY with his iMiEV: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBV9CIVN0fs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBV9CIVN0fs ... but I can't say personally I'm eager to DIY it myself, because, well, 400V is scary. Nifty, but yeah, I'm not messing w/ hacking 400V either.
DarylZero 4y ago
I powered my house for a couple days with my hybrid Camry on much less than a single tank of gas. Hooked it up to the breaker through an inverter. The "generator" in this setup automatically turns on and off according to need. Mostly it was off. I wasn't running the house at full normal electrical usage. No AC. Kept the lights and fridge and computers on though. Of course you can do this with any kind of car. But a hybrid (not a pure electric as in the article) is surely ideal.
mfer 4y ago
There are trade offs to something like this. Some downsides… It’s not going to cover you for a multi-day outage very well. Where I live that happens every few years. You can’t use the truck to help people out (can happen in outages, especially if it’s storm related) and power the house at the same time. Most of my life I’ve lived someplace with multi-day outages due to storms. What markets well isn’t really the best practical on the ground solution
deleted 4y ago
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1970-01-01 4y ago
Controlling 130kw is a big ask for current automotive-grade software. Insurance companies will argue for replacement parts to be OEM or risk of dropping your fire coverage.
linsomniac 4y ago
One thing to consider is this solution requires 200A panel. Probably tack another $5k on if you have a 100A panel.
- neogodless 4y ago
  I don't think it'll cost $5,000 USD to install a 200A panel. Though the results are a bit all over the map... https://duckduckgo.com/?q=cost+to+install+200a+electrical+panel https://duckduckgo.com/?q=cost+to+install+200a+electrical+pa... As low as $150 and as high as $4,500.
  - linsomniac 4y ago
    For a data-point: a decade ago I paid $1800, the cheapest of 3 quotes, for a 100A panel replacement, in an average priced locality. No service upgrade involved, just replace an old panel with a new one. For reference, I've been watching threads over the last few months on reddit electrician/askelectrician subreddits. $150 probably won't even buy you the copper to do a panel upgrade, or the permit. A service upgrade is going to take around a day of electrician time, and those aren't cheap. You'll also need to get the utility to run 200A service to the meter. A meter base is going to be at least $60. A new load center (industry term for breaker panel) ~$200. You're probably also going to need to install an outside main service disconnect, required by code in most locations now. If you get power overhead, you will probably need a new weatherhead and related. You likely will need new breakers, $15-$30 each for 20 of them, and you may need to go with some AFCIs at $50/pop for bedroom branch circuits (required by code in many locations now). If you have any sketchy wiring on those bedroom circuits you may need to do troubleshooting on those or re-run them. You are probably also going to need to put in an external cutoff, required by code in most locations now. A huge variable right now is supply of both equipment and electricians in some localities, so that may drive prices up. So, $5K in some locations and for some situations may be high, it may also be low for others. A fair range, based on what I've seen, is probably more like $2500-$7500. The $2500 end is going to be a pretty recently built house that somehow didn't come with 200A service.
dcchambers 4y ago
It really puts into perspective just how much energy our vehicles us, whether electric or ICE, when the battery from a single electric vehicle can power everything in your house for many hours/even days.
- ars 4y ago
  It's only enough to power a house if you don't use A/C, electric dryer or range. i.e. just lights and electronics, which don't take much power. And you are comparing it to driving a full day BTW.
  - dcchambers 4y ago
    I am too lazy to do napkin math on this, but the article implies it can run a home with AC for days. > Ford says the Lightning can fully power an average home for roughly three days. “That’s a house like my house with AC, Xbox, kids going crazy leaving lights on everywhere,” Linda Zhang, chief engineer of the F-150 Lightning, tells Bloomberg Green. With more frugal use, the Lightning could keep a home running for up to 10 days, she says.
    - ars 4y ago
      A typical A/C uses 5kW, and this has around 100kWh, so that's 20 hours of compressor-on time. That's maybe a day or two, so yah, that's pretty accurate, especially if you buy the model with more power. Wow.
presentation 4y ago
I recently chatted with a tow truck operator who owns an electric vehicle himself, and he was spooked by the fire risks; he had just taken a course about how to avoid causing electrical fires when towing EVs, which evidently can start weeks after damage is inflicted, and shuddered at the idea of an lithium ion fire starting in someone’s garage. Never really thought about the fire risk now that really huge lithium batteries are getting more common.
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  All towing industry people are spooked by the fire risks. While lifetime fire risks are probably lower EVs so far seem more likely to catch fire "without a good reason".
kstenerud 4y ago
With all of the discussion going on there seems to be one thing that people are missing: This is the BEGINNING of the technology. Ford is the first to offer this, but now the rest of the companies will be falling all over themselves to compete. The competition will foster better and better technologies over the years, and as a result we'll have modular, bi-directional power systems for all sorts of purposes. And THAT is what's so great about this. I'm not so much excited about the F150 itself (as I wasn't excited about the Tesla Roadster itself), but rather about where this is going to lead over the next decade.
- PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
  That's what they said about Concorde too. The march of technology is not always inevitable.
  - mensetmanusman 4y ago
    Also the case of nuclear medicine, which will probably be a thing after a century from now.
    - kstenerud 4y ago
      First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
      - PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
        "They laughed at Galileo, they laughed at Einstein, but they also laughed at Bozo the Clown" - Carl Sagan
      - Aransentin 4y ago
        First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you lose, then you're forgotten about, then you're yet another example of survivorship bias.
mensetmanusman 4y ago
This adds a lot of value for cases where a house that has a continuous sump pump loses power during a storm.
kator 4y ago
Reminds me of this story: How Canadians Derailed a Train and Drove It to City Hall for Power After a Brutal Ice Storm[1] https://www.thedrive.com/news/39378/how-canadians-derailed-a-train-and-drove-it-to-city-hall-for-power-after-a-brutal-ice-storm https://www.thedrive.com/news/39378/how-canadians-derailed-a...
samstave 4y ago
mcguire 4y ago
This writer seems to be confused about the difference between a generator and a battery.
thepasswordis 4y ago
This truck honestly looks great, and $40k is a practically unbelievable price point. Great job, Ford. I'm holding out for a cybertruck, and will happily pay $100k for it, but...I dont't want to wait 3 more years. I kindof need a truck now, and if I can get one of these fords...
screye 4y ago
I genuinely don't like this, in part because it is so good. Society continues cramming unnecessary, yet surprisingly useful features into bigger and bigger cars. With each feature, it brings people 1 step closer to thinking that they actually need what is effectively a murder tank in their house. In the US, power outages are a once every few years kind of thing. Most truck uses are similarly once a year sort of uses. These trucks are by and large purchased by rich people in suburbs, who never so much as use 1% of the features they offer. Yet, people end up solo-driving these same over-bloated tanks for their commute and ferrying around a couple of people. It makes the roads riskier (already biggest contributor of youth death), increases road wear by 4x (weight squared) and leads to the general inefficiencies that come with car-centric design. Note: This doesn't apply to those in rural areas.
- sn9 4y ago
  You've clearly never lived along the Gulf coast. During natural disasters like hurricanes, this kinda thing can be a life saver. Many people buy diesel generators for these kinds of situations. This is a marked improvement.
  - pornel 4y ago
    How does Japan survive regular Tsunami with their tiny Kei cars?
    - hunterb123 4y ago
      Are you asserting that Japanese people do not die by tsunamis, that lack of electricity doesn't attribute to deaths, or that tsunamis don't knock out the grid? Or a combination of those three? I'd affirm that lives would be saved with more backup power options. Whether Ford's solution is effective is TBD, but more power options overall is a good thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_T%C5%8Dhoku_earthquake_and_tsunami#Damage_and_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_T%C5%8Dhoku_earthquake_an...
- aaronbeekay 4y ago
  I live in a major US city and my power goes out at least once every couple of months, sometimes for hours at a time. I have installed several UPSes on important electrical things (servers, routers, modem) to avoid the hassles that come with regular power failures. (Not that the Lightning would be a big help here - these outages very rarely last a day or more - but it’s not the case that outages are rare events.)
everdrive 4y ago
Except that it's completely impossible to buy one.
FooBarBizBazz 4y ago
A couple acres of pasture will, using grass, turn solar energy into carbohydrates, which will power a donkey -- no rare earths or complicated supply chains needed. With enough donkeys, your transportation even becomes self-replicating -- so much for gigafactories. I don't understand why the worse technology won here. Pack animals are a much better solution if you really want to be prepared. They even do better in the rugged mountains from which you will inevitably have to snipe at the federales with your jezail. Think about it.
elif 4y ago
The fine print is where it all kind of falls apart. It says they recommend SunRun for every aspect of the grid modification, including utility coordination. Well, these are the states where SunRun operates... https://www.sunrun.com/solar-by-state https://www.sunrun.com/solar-by-state ... And their advertising doesn't mention EV plug installs anywhere so you are in DIY/SOL territory for half the country, and in for a unique experience if in a good one

s17n 4y ago

The comparison to the Powerwall is certainly appropriate given the subject of the article, but I think the author should have also included the battery capacity and price of one of Tesla's vehicles to give a sense of how much Ford is advancing the state of the art.

jedberg 4y ago

So it sounds like they want to design the truck to send power to the grid when needed. I don't know about you, but in a blackout I'd want my truck fully charged, and not being remotely drained by the grid operator.

no-s 4y ago

> Transforming an F-150 Lightning into a backup generator means you can keep the lights on during blackouts. > ... 9.6 kilowatts of carbon-free electricity generated onboard... fail. it’s a mobile battery, not a generator. For a modest extra few $1000s it can be grid-tied and used as a battery backup. I predict grid-tying will not look like a virtue when the public utility decides to tap into the owner’s battery to make up for generation malinvestment...

jylam 4y ago
Isn't a battery a type of generator, to be pedantic ? There is not electricity stored in a battery, just a chemical state that happens to generate electricity.
- paskozdilar 4y ago
  While that is true from the perspective of electrical engineering, I think it is reasonable to expect that "generator" colloquially refers to an engine that converts fuel into electricity. Since you can't really "pour fuel" into a battery (at least that I know of), I personally wouldn't call it a "generator".
  - Gigachad 4y ago
    The most charitable interpretation is that “generator” just refers to something that keeps your house powered when the grid goes down. It serves exactly the same purpose to the end user as a real generator so it doesn’t really matter what happens behind the scenes. And that it’s carbon free because in theory it could be charged by purely renewables, especially likely if you have personal solar, vs a real generator which is only burning fuel.
  - greggsy 4y ago
    It’s just a clever use of the term for editorial value. I think it works at communicating the use case in the article. No need to ver analyse it.
  - DarylZero 4y ago
    Fuel cells are batteries that you pour fuel into.
- 2000UltraDeluxe 4y ago
  Energy converter, if you want to be pedantic. For practical purposes it's storage.
marcinzm 4y ago
>I predict grid-tying will not look like a virtue when the public utility decides to tap into the owner’s battery to make up for generation malinvestment... Then limit or block exporting out to the grid.
- more_corn 4y ago
  You need this anyway for safety.
  - no-s 4y ago
    Also, safety will probably also dictate you must wait for the utility to finish using your truck battery before you disconnect it. You’ll probably have to request a disconnect and wait for generation or OtherPeoplesStorage to come online…
greggsy 4y ago
It’s true that a generator converts motive energy into electricity, but in the context of a worksite, or a household, it fulfils the same outcome. The article is being clever and recontextualising the concept, because that’s what cements a use case in peoples minds.
- no-s 4y ago
  > The article is being clever and recontextualising the concept, because that’s what cements a use case in peoples minds. Awesome! Gotta remember that line when I make shit up! Hurrah for This brave new world where a sufficiently recontextualised concept reveals a whole new consensually derived factual basis for persuasion.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
pengaru 4y ago
> I predict grid-tying will not look like a virtue when the public utility decides to tap into the owner’s battery to make up for generation malinvestment It sure looks like a virtue when the public utility already taps into grid-tied rooftop PV arrays, generating income for homeowners and cleaning up the grid. If adding energy storage to homes allows the grid to require less fossil-fuel burning peaker plants, while generating income for those homeowners, why wouldn't this be rightfully seen as a virtue? My main concern is that the compensation be appropriate for the added wear and tear on the grid-tied EV batteries. Assuming this is addressed, it seems like a good thing.
- no-s 4y ago
  > If adding energy storage to homes allows the grid to require less fossil-fuel burning peaker plants, while generating income for those homeowners, why wouldn't this be rightfully seen as a virtue? Hmm, imagine the scenario where the truck owner inconveniently runs out of battery charge on the highway because the utility depleted it in favor of increasing generation. While all of your scenarios may seem virtuous to you, it’s not necessarily incorporating the perspective of the person who actually paid $1000s for the privilege of being left on the side of the road… To me it feels like a bummer. Not to you?
  - pengaru 4y ago
    I don't really understand where you're coming from here. In the hypothetical situation you describe where the person is exclusively relying on this grid-tied vehicle for all their transportation needs as well, I'm inclined to say they made a poor choice. A lot of Americans have multiple vehicles, it's those I expect to most exploit this option. Driving a giant pickup truck for all your needs isn't particularly pleasant, it's kind of an ideal vehicle to leave grid-tied most the time until you need to haul something big/heavy/filthy.
    - no-s 4y ago
      It’s not hypothetical that a person would buy a pickup truck and expect to use it at all, heheh. You chose to reframe it as “the person is exclusively relying on this grid-tied vehicle for all their transportation needs as well”, which is framing an argument I did not make. I think that’s some kind of rhetorical fallacy on your part. Please help me to recontextualize such an inane counter. It’s like you have no response at all and just reframe things so you’ll have something to refute. That’s dishearteningly dishonest for HN.
0daystock 4y ago
I wonder why you're being downvoted, because what you say is quite true. Recently, I declined purchasing a solar system for my home, because it would not provide energy independence when the grid is down as I had envisioned. Instead, it required a device from the power company which would "allow" me to use my own energy storage, but also give them full access to the same resources. I saw this for the obvious scam it was - power companies sharing the burden of costly infrastructure with consumers through clever marketing and federal tax "discounts". It's not a stretch of imagination to apply this logic to other independent energy mechanisms like gasoline engine cars and imagine the implications on our autonomy.

causi 4y ago

“At scale, when these vehicles are enabled to send energy back to the grid, flex alerts and notices of grid emergencies will be a thing completely of the past,” He cannot possibly be that ignorant. Nobody is going to be willing to not only put cycles on their battery but risk being left with a half-charged vehicle during a grid failure. Transforming a Lightning into a home generator requires Ford’s 80-amp charging station and a $3,895 home integration system from Sunrun Inc. Installation cost for the Sunrun system varies according to the home and location. The charging station comes with the extended-range version of the Lightning; it’s a $1,310 option for buyers of the standard 230 mile-range version of the pickup. A nine kilowatt electric generator costs under a thousand dollars. What kind of idiot is going to shell out six grand just to drain his truck battery for the same purpose?

Gigachad 4y ago
Grid failures are usually very short. If paid well, most people would be fine to use their batteries to smooth out a 10 minute failure while backup generation is turning on.
- kylecordes 4y ago
  Where I live in the Midwest, power failures are very rare. When they happen it is usually amid a major thunderstorm or snowstorm, affecting thousands of customers, with obvious obstacles to getting crews out to fix things. Power goes out... it might last 8 minutes, it might last 8 hours, it might last days. At that moment, backup power (obtained at considerable expense) is precious. The utility may have to pay far beyond "well" to buy it.
- chrisco255 4y ago
  It's not short in a hurricane zone. Weeks of no power after a strong hit is fairly common.
sgt101 4y ago
I wouldn't want to pay that much because a stand alone battery probably costs less, but if I could pay $500 for some kit that let me use my tesla as a power source for my house at night I would be very interested. This would make sense to me as I have panels to charge it during the day, having a few KWH at night time would be pretty efficient. The stand alone batteries are too expensive right now.

foobarian 4y ago

> “That new customer to trucks is really being brought in, in my mind, by the Mega Power Frunk and by the Pro Power Onboard,” she says. “And some people are just truly, really interested in this product as a backup generator.” I don't know, we're an average family with a mid-size SUV and looking around for EVs, there is not much that is not a downgrade in capability. Model 3s are too small compared to a SUV, while X and Y cost a 100 grand. I wonder if this F150 interest it's because it's at last a big EV at a very affordable price. (Edit: I misread the X&Y costs: X is over 100, Y is 50-60)

rcMgD2BwE72F 4y ago
>Model 3s are too small compared to a SUV, while X and Y cost a 100 grand Uh? Model Y AWD Long Range costs $64,990 in the US before gas savings and incentives. https://www.tesla.com/modely/design#overview https://www.tesla.com/modely/design#overview
- foobarian 4y ago
  My apologies, I must have looked at the Model X data twice. I'll make a note.
ubercore 4y ago
Y is getting more expensive, but is definitely still below 100k
bryanlarsen 4y ago
At current gas prices, the lifetime TCO of a $70K Model Y is the same as a $40K gasoline SUV.
- SEJeff 4y ago
  That’s not taking into account the lower maintenance costs is it? Massively fewer moving parts in an electric vehicle “engine” aka drive train means less things to break. The recommended service for a Model 3 or Model Y is every two years. No oil changes or alternators or fan belts etc.

mikedelago 4y ago

I'm more interested in the range extender[0] that was patented by ford recently. Body-on-frame vehices seem like a no-brainer case for EV's, since they're typically larger and have more space on the frame for batteries, and having a camping/off road vehicle that also has a range extender sounds like a great idea to me. I've really been thinking of getting one after my 2019 crosstrek is paid off, but that won't be for a couple of years. [0] https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a34277725/ford-f-150-range-extender-ev-pickup-patent/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a34277725/ford-f-150-range...

jdcaron 4y ago
It's absolute bonker, the patent got granted. The current state of the patent system is a complete joke.
- runnerup 4y ago
  Completely agree. My coworkers at my current and past job keep patenting ridiculous shit which should be, at most, a blog entry. Not even a conference talk. Definitely not a patent. We should really bring forth exponential fees for patents and copyright.
  - adolph 4y ago
    Here is the patent in question. https://patents.google.com/patent/US10773602B2/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US10773602B2/en
pitaj 4y ago
Oh nice, it's a generator module that turns your EV into a hybrid for long-haul trips. I've been talking about this kind of thing for years. Glad it's finally an option. ~~While this appears to be just extra battery, which is fine, I'd really love to see a generator module that turns your EV into a hybrid for long-haul trips.~~
- mikedelago 4y ago

abruzzi 4y ago

while I don't see me buying one of these, its the most interesting auto feature I've seen in a very long time. I don't want backup power for when the grid fails, I want primary power for a small cabin I'm building far from available grid power. (I can get grid power run to my land, but it would cost me way more than this Ford to run the lines.)

thedougd 4y ago
The Hybrid F-150 with the generator option may be a much better option in that situation. A spare can could prevent you from running out of power and ending up stranded. Or you could drive out to quickly refuel. https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a35152752/powered-house-ford-f-150-hybrid/ https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a35152752/powered-hous...
lm28469 4y ago
You could probably get a gas powered generator and use it all your life for that usage while still polluting less than if you bought a whole ass 3 tonne car
- epistasis 4y ago
  A 1 ton gas car is going to pollute far far more than a 3 ton EV charged from the average American electricity mix, and that mix is not particularly clean, even.
- abruzzi 4y ago
  Personally, I’d prefer not to have a generator nearby. Storing fuel, noise, exhaust—all things I’d prefer to avoid. And as I said, this is not the vehicle that will solve the problem for me, since nobody yet makes an EV that would work for my usage, but when they do make he EV I want, this will be the primary feature I want. I was planning to setup solar at the location to charge a small battery for an hour or so of power a day if I spend a week at the location, I can plug the truck into the solar to trickle charge during the day.
Spunkie 4y ago
I'm interested in an EV for similar reasons but I also live in a remote mountain area where batteries, generators, and even propane tanks grow legs. So the fact that my entire off grid battery system would travel with me when I'm not at home is a huge benefit.

stevespang 4y ago

phreenet 4y ago

Powering a house for days is a very broad statement. Does this include things are that electrified such as a central air conditioner and/or heat pump? Electric water heater? Electric clothes dryer? Maybe the last two would be considered a luxury in an emergency situation but I've lost power for 3+ days twice in the past two years during a major snow/ice storm. It's brutal not having a heat source and if you live in a hot climate I'm sure it's equally brutal in the summer.

rootusrootus 4y ago
That's a good point. It really depends on usage, though it's not unfair to just use the average when writing an article. And by that standard, 'a few days' is probably fair. During the winter, that kind of battery capacity could power us for a couple weeks. Everything other than the furnace blower is natural gas. During the summer, ... well, fortunately we don't need air conditioning here to survive (one-off 117F events notwithstanding).
colechristensen 4y ago
The extended range version has a 131 kWh battery, the average American household uses ~900 kWh per month. So yes, it could power your heating or cooling for days in addition to everything else. A big home central air system will pull 5 kW and won’t run 100% of the time.
- phreenet 4y ago
  kWh is power over time. When planning a power backup solution you have to account for spike loads, building code inspectors will insist on it. For an average central air conditioning system the outdoor refrigerant compressor has a locked rotor starting amp requirement of ~80A (typically). According to Ford the max amp feed back to your home from the truck is 80A. Building code will let you hook up your outdoor unit only in that case, the inside air handler will not be allowed because (assuming internal is 15A) you would be asking for 95A. You will most likely require either load shed devices or a transfer switch which will most likely not include your whole home or your AC/HeatPump. At least by building code.

0daystock 4y ago

So can a diesel or propane generator, and they can do it indefinitely, and for much cheaper. EVs (and consumer solar to a large extent) are an elaborate and clever ruse to externalize the costs of maintaining a weak and aging power infrastructure grid on to consumers while actually reducing energy independence (reliance on rare and expensive parts to fix batteries and proprietary equipment). The environmental "benefits" are far from a foregone conclusion also - how many precious metals are mined under slave-labor conditions to create battery storage? What happens to them en masse at end of life? Sure makes for great virtue signaling to drive a 3/4 ton "electric" truck though. The smug feelings EV owners enjoy apparently suspend all logic and common sense.

markstos 4y ago

The energy it takes to fill up the tank in this vehicle once could power a house for a week. Wow. Every household driving an F150 would appear to the grid like bring 7x houses online. It certainly puts the efficiency of writing a bike for short trips in perspective.

ale42 4y ago
Writing or riding? :)
Mvandenbergh 4y ago
The grid is sized on peak rather than average loads and at every voltage level spends many hours a day comfortably below a third of its capacity almost everywhere. In places with non-electric heating it can easily be at single digit % load factor on a cold night. DC fast chargers are challenging for local grids but home / office based AC chargers with smart charging don't really contribute to grid loading because they only draw substantial power during non-congested periods.
- WorldMaker 4y ago
  Yes, it is useful to remember that peak load on the Grid is often dominated by/built for industrial users that generally keep somewhat strict 9-5 business days and evenings/weekends rarely see anything close to that same peak. It's why power utilities have almost always had different rates for Peak and Non-Peak electric usage (to incentivize more non-peak usage). Most EVs even have smart modes that let them schedule their charges to best take advantage of cheaper off-peak electricity pricing.
csours 4y ago
I'm curious how this looks in another context. According to the EIA in 2018 the average Texas home used 14,112 kWh a year. The EPA/Monroney window sticker for the Ford Lightning claims 49 kWh / 100 miles, so about 1 kWh for 2 miles. So you could drive approximately 28,000 miles on the same power that a home consumes. Does my math make sense? Did I miss something?
4y ago

pfdietz 4y ago

I wonder if aluminum-air primary batteries could be useful for home backup. The energy stored in aluminum anodes is very large.

kkfx 4y ago

I have a small p.v. with lithium (BYD LiFeP) backup, just to ensure fridge/freezer/home IT and phones/light/VMC in case of outage, AC-coupled classic inverter to do more and recharge in that case. Honestly IF Vehicle2Loads systems became spread AND an open standard I might evaluate them because EVs are NOT cheap and NOT cheaper than ICE so far, but probably they will, for artificial or natural reasons, or anyway due to lack of gasoline/gas they will be needed anyway. Surely the claim of powering for days is a bit exaggerated, more than a bit, but surely with a p.v. combined might be a way to save money in case of very unstable grids witch again is not the case so far but probably will due to various factors... One thing I doubt is the vehicle to grid application for MANY reasons like: - inverters too small and not quick enough to stabilize the grid - I doubt any operator accept energy injections from countless set of moving inverters, home p.v. is normally checked BEFORE allowing to connect to the grid, vehicles move can't be checked up front - I doubt owners want to give their energy to the grid from expensive batteries

lucb1e 4y ago
> - I doubt owners want to give their energy to the grid from expensive batteries Well, of course it would have to make financial sense. Since you want those batteries anyway for driving long distances (say, more than twice the distance of a regular commute is not something most people do daily, but they'll want to be able to go quite far so most cars have quite big batteries), that is a sunk cost. Might as well put them to use on days where you don't want to drive far and electricity is expensive (no sun or wind, or high gas prices or so). > EVs are NOT cheap and NOT cheaper than ICE so far That surprises me. You say you've got a "small" PV installation, how small is small? From what I've heard of PV installation owners with EVs, the per-kilometer cost over the lifetime of the car is much lower, you just have to be able to invest in (or loan) the up-front costs of both and that's what makes it prohibitive still. Does the math not work out for you in that way?
- kkfx 4y ago
  I'm in France, if that matter, small in my case mean 5kW, but that's not the reason, the reasons are: - I already have ICEs cars (two actually) 4x4 and living in the Alps where a 4x4 in winter is very comfy - at actual rates, and re-sale values (witch is practically zero for EVs here) amortize the price of available 4x4 EVs is simply fantasy - at my actual car usage (not that much WFH and doung far less trips than before) amortize the price of available 4x4 EVs is simply fantasy Essentially my ICEs cars work flawlessly and STILL have a re-sale value, a new EVs, a little one, little in price terms, but not so little to be unusable here, perhaps can be paid back in the near future, still not now, surely not a model X or a Volvo. My math simply do not count just energy prices, especially since now/so far I travel not enough, but the TCO. With my small p.v. I can power my house "A-class" i.e. new, insulated very well etc, for almost all loads, water heater system is a big enough cumulus that does not need energy at night, heat-pump (just ~1kW) and classic resistance, so if the Sun shine I can go for resistance or resistance+heat pump, if not but still there is a bit of Sun the heat pump only. It's driven by the inverter so regulate itself depending on current home micro-grid load. Cooking does not demand so much, washing machine, dishwasher etc can normally both run 100% on self-consumption when the Sun shine. Looking back, now, I would made an 8kW p.v. I have enough space for it, but back than just few years ago I do not think that was needed...

thehappypm 4y ago

Surprised at the negativity. This is great IMO! I just bought a house and am surprised by how crappy all the options for backup power generation are. Cheapo generator: allows you to plug in some stuff but it’s very ad hoc, needs some light maintenance. Definitely good in a pinch but it’s not gonna power your house or even make it easy to keep your lights on. Expensive generator, wired into house electrical system: great stuff but very expensive, and still requires maintenance. Powerwall: low maintenance, terrific user experience, however exorbitantly expensive and also won’t really help in a prolonged outage.

maxerickson 4y ago
I am curious to hear of hands on experience with http://www.generlink.com/ http://www.generlink.com/ . It is a medium power transfer switch that installs behind the electric meter, meaning that the existing panel can be used to select loads. With a lower quality generator, you probably get ~3kW for less than $5000.
- wrycoder 4y ago
  7.5KW Generac $2000 plus installation https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200665207_200665207 https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200665207_20...
- rsync 4y ago
  I really dislike the complexity of the automatic transfer solutions and I especially dislike the concept of preferred breakers or sub panels for generator use, etc. Instead, just buy the $30 metal lockout tab for your panel and wire your generator right into the main panel and be done with it. So. Much. Simpler. Power goes out, you flip the lockout over and manually start the generator. Worried about loads ? Fine - while the panel is open, flip off your dryer 30a and … ? In reality, load is not an issue - a generator with 100amp breaker will power your entire house. (I even tried to break it - ran dryer, 20amp microwave, toaster and kicked on a water pump … no issue)
  - gautamcgoel 4y ago

_ea1k 4y ago

Still absent from the article is any mention of how the warranty is handled for a vehicle being used heavily for this purpose.

jiveturkey42 4y ago

"Do you really need to do X when you could easily do A,B,C and get Y?" Sometimes things are just fun, interesting, and cool

lizardactivist 4y ago

I guess that's interesting. But I wouldn't exactly look at that metric when deciding to buy an electric vehicle.

etskinner 4y ago
Why not?
neogodless 4y ago
If you wouldn't use it, it wouldn't be a part of your decision-making... but there are a very large number of consumers of pickup trucks (and future electric vehicles) who are, as it turns out, not you, and a lot of them would benefit from this feature.

gsibble 4y ago

Blackouts are not climate driven. We are retiring unfavorable sources of energy like coal and nuclear faster than we are bringing new sources of green energy online. It's fucking stupid. edit: According to the WSJ, the coming blackouts this summer are due to Green Climate Policies, not climate change: https://www.wsj.com/articles/americas-summer-of-rolling-blackouts-green-energy-grid-north-american-electric-reliability-corporation-11653683348?cx_testId=3&cx_testVariant=cx_2&cx_artPos=1&mod=WTRN#cxrecs_s https://www.wsj.com/articles/americas-summer-of-rolling-blac... This is a self inflicted wound due to bad policy.

dewey 4y ago
> Blackouts are not climate driven. That's a bit of an absolute statement. Blackouts can happen for a lot of reasons, some of them are related to climate and climate change. Bigger weather events like floods and windows can take out power lines or dams easily.
- symesc 4y ago
  I believe the original statement is correct. Blackouts are not climate driven. Blackouts can be weather driven.
  - dewey 4y ago
    I don't think it makes sense to see them as disconnected. Example: "Climate change leads to more extreme weather" - World Meteorological Organization Source: https://public.wmo.int/en/media/press-release/weather-related-disasters-increase-over-past-50-years-causing-more-damage-fewer https://public.wmo.int/en/media/press-release/weather-relate...
    - gsibble 4y ago
      Sigh. As with many things, we don't really know what is and isn't caused by "climate change." Why for instance does CA now have so many fires but TX has fewer? Could it be climate change? Sure. Could it be the major differences CA enacted around forest management that TX didn't? Sure. But all you ever hear about is climate change. It's hysteria and it covers up other real issues.

anarticle 4y ago

I don't think I want my powerwall to leave when the power is out if I need to run to a store or anything else. There are great reasons to install your backup power.

kibwen 4y ago
You can have both, with the car serving as extra capacity when it's not out running to the store. Heck, drive your car somewhere that has power, charge it, then drive it back to refill your home batteries.

hunterb123 4y ago

So you drain the battery of your mode of transportation in an emergency or you do it in non emergencies and dwindle away your cycle lifetime? And title should be "will power" not "can power" as its not in production.

criddell 4y ago

You can do something similar with a Prius. Turns out a Prius has a pretty efficient generator in it. > As long as it has fuel, the Prius can produce at least three kilowatts of continuous power, which is adequate to maintain a home's basic functions. https://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/02/automobiles/02POWER.html https://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/02/automobiles/02POWER.html

WhompingWindows 4y ago
This is an old article, it's 15 years old which makes it ancient in the battery world. I have a Prius from that generation and mine doesn't have V2G. I can't find any numbers, how many Priuses actually have V2G capability?
- criddell 4y ago
  It's always been done by connecting an inverter to the big Prius battery. Here's a link to one company that sells the kits: https://www.plugoutpower.com/ https://www.plugoutpower.com/
  - everybodyknows 4y ago
    Don't see anything on that page about consequences for your Toyota warranty. Assuming it's invalidated, this looks like a solution for owners of older hybrids only.

ag56 4y ago

Surprised there’s no discussion on the price delta here - I could buy 10x power-walls for $110k, or 1x E F150 for $40k and get a free truck thrown in. As someone with a large house who just investigated a hybrid power walls + gas generator + solar backup solution and didn’t go through with it due to cost, this is huge. I am literally considering buying an F150 to just keep parked stationary behind my garage.

surfaceofthesun 4y ago
My understanding is the more natural comparison is between the ~$80k truck with the power walls since it allows the backup power solution vs manually plugging things in via extension cord. Engineering Explained had a good video about it. https://youtu.be/ATAFIoXTEe8 https://youtu.be/ATAFIoXTEe8
- ag56 4y ago
  Thanks. But even at $80k it’s a no brainer. The hybrid solution I vetoed came in at $130k! EDIT: To expand on that, only about $40k was batteries. After an initial period would fall back to (large) generator and only certain areas of house powered. I’d have to check the math, but an E F150 with a much smaller generator would be both cheaper and power the whole house indefinitely.
  - bradfa 4y ago
    It depends on your use case. If your use case is emergency backup power, then yeah the truck is the hands down winner. But if your use case is to load shift to minimize costs then buying a slightly smaller fixed location (ie: powerwall) battery bank which is always able to be on-line will likely make more sense, since once you drive the truck somewhere it's no longer attached to the house. It depends on how your electricity generation, distribution, and consumption works for your own location. But also, holy cow! $130k in powerwalls is a LOT of powerwall!
    - garciasn 4y ago

john61 4y ago

This illustrates what energy waste these cars are. Disgusting in times of climate change.

kibwen 4y ago
Every gas truck replaced by an electric truck is an improvement over the status quo. Americans are in love with trucks, and the ones most in love with their trucks are the ones most primed by their media to resist measures to address climate change, so if this can get them on board with electrification then it will be an incredible victory.
- theshrike79 4y ago
  Ford went all out with the F-150 Lightning, they put their A-team on it and actually made a truck that non-truck people might want too. Especially when it's fully compatible with the huge 3rd party addon inventory for the F-150.
  - euroderf 4y ago
    Presumably this includes fuzzy dice!

HPsquared 4y ago

Advantage: you can leave the house to get more electricity. Disadvantage: while you are away from the house, it gets no power.

cmrdporcupine 4y ago

Power outage at my house right now and I have my fridge running off the 1500W outlet on my Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. Only an 8kWH battery but it’s good enough to run the fridge just wish I could run my well pump as well because no running water really is the worst. And when the battery depletes the cars ICE kicks in as a generator. This kind of thing is only going to get more necessary as the weather becomes more volatile. This outage is likely fallout from the historic storm that went through Ontario and Quebec a bit over a week ago.

danans 4y ago
Hmm, my Outlander PHEV doesn't have the 1500W outlet - I must have a lower trim. Cool that you can do it though. I believe there was a demonstration of using this vehicle as a backup generator during an outage, but I don't think it was ever commercialized.
- cmrdporcupine 4y ago
  Yeah it's annoying it's only on the upper trims. I pushed my wife to spring for the upper trim and while I find many things about this vehicle disappointing (compared to my Volt which is far superior, technically), the outlets are handy. The thing is though that the Outlander has a CHADeMO port (strangely, I can't imagine ever using it to charge). CHADeMO is bidirectional. In theory a vehicle-to-house system could be built with it, providing 400V DC which you could run through whatever inverter you want. I say in theory because it doesn't seem like there are commercial products out there that will do this at this time. And CHADeMO is now a dead standard. But YouTuber sensation Benjamin Nelson has done it DIY with his iMiEV: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBV9CIVN0fs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBV9CIVN0fs ... but I can't say personally I'm eager to DIY it myself, because, well, 400V is scary. My power is now back on :-)
  - danans 4y ago
    > The thing is though that the Outlander has a CHADeMO port (strangely, I can't imagine ever using it to charge). I read that it was a requirement by the Japanese government to have Bi-di charging to prepare for situations where the grid went down due to emergencies (i.e. earthquakes). It's pretty silly for rapid charging though, since you should only add 80% to a measly 8kWh battery. I've done it just to entertain myself when I run across a CHADeMO Electrify America station. > Benjamin Nelson has done it DIY with his iMiEV: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBV9CIVN0fs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBV9CIVN0fs ... but I can't say personally I'm eager to DIY it myself, because, well, 400V is scary. Nifty, but yeah, I'm not messing w/ hacking 400V either.

DarylZero 4y ago

I powered my house for a couple days with my hybrid Camry on much less than a single tank of gas. Hooked it up to the breaker through an inverter. The "generator" in this setup automatically turns on and off according to need. Mostly it was off. I wasn't running the house at full normal electrical usage. No AC. Kept the lights and fridge and computers on though. Of course you can do this with any kind of car. But a hybrid (not a pure electric as in the article) is surely ideal.

mfer 4y ago

There are trade offs to something like this. Some downsides… It’s not going to cover you for a multi-day outage very well. Where I live that happens every few years. You can’t use the truck to help people out (can happen in outages, especially if it’s storm related) and power the house at the same time. Most of my life I’ve lived someplace with multi-day outages due to storms. What markets well isn’t really the best practical on the ground solution

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

1970-01-01 4y ago

Controlling 130kw is a big ask for current automotive-grade software. Insurance companies will argue for replacement parts to be OEM or risk of dropping your fire coverage.

linsomniac 4y ago

One thing to consider is this solution requires 200A panel. Probably tack another $5k on if you have a 100A panel.

neogodless 4y ago
I don't think it'll cost $5,000 USD to install a 200A panel. Though the results are a bit all over the map... https://duckduckgo.com/?q=cost+to+install+200a+electrical+panel https://duckduckgo.com/?q=cost+to+install+200a+electrical+pa... As low as $150 and as high as $4,500.
- linsomniac 4y ago
  For a data-point: a decade ago I paid $1800, the cheapest of 3 quotes, for a 100A panel replacement, in an average priced locality. No service upgrade involved, just replace an old panel with a new one. For reference, I've been watching threads over the last few months on reddit electrician/askelectrician subreddits. $150 probably won't even buy you the copper to do a panel upgrade, or the permit. A service upgrade is going to take around a day of electrician time, and those aren't cheap. You'll also need to get the utility to run 200A service to the meter. A meter base is going to be at least $60. A new load center (industry term for breaker panel) ~$200. You're probably also going to need to install an outside main service disconnect, required by code in most locations now. If you get power overhead, you will probably need a new weatherhead and related. You likely will need new breakers, $15-$30 each for 20 of them, and you may need to go with some AFCIs at $50/pop for bedroom branch circuits (required by code in many locations now). If you have any sketchy wiring on those bedroom circuits you may need to do troubleshooting on those or re-run them. You are probably also going to need to put in an external cutoff, required by code in most locations now. A huge variable right now is supply of both equipment and electricians in some localities, so that may drive prices up. So, $5K in some locations and for some situations may be high, it may also be low for others. A fair range, based on what I've seen, is probably more like $2500-$7500. The $2500 end is going to be a pretty recently built house that somehow didn't come with 200A service.

dcchambers 4y ago

It really puts into perspective just how much energy our vehicles us, whether electric or ICE, when the battery from a single electric vehicle can power everything in your house for many hours/even days.

ars 4y ago
It's only enough to power a house if you don't use A/C, electric dryer or range. i.e. just lights and electronics, which don't take much power. And you are comparing it to driving a full day BTW.
- dcchambers 4y ago
  I am too lazy to do napkin math on this, but the article implies it can run a home with AC for days. > Ford says the Lightning can fully power an average home for roughly three days. “That’s a house like my house with AC, Xbox, kids going crazy leaving lights on everywhere,” Linda Zhang, chief engineer of the F-150 Lightning, tells Bloomberg Green. With more frugal use, the Lightning could keep a home running for up to 10 days, she says.
  - ars 4y ago
    A typical A/C uses 5kW, and this has around 100kWh, so that's 20 hours of compressor-on time. That's maybe a day or two, so yah, that's pretty accurate, especially if you buy the model with more power. Wow.

presentation 4y ago

I recently chatted with a tow truck operator who owns an electric vehicle himself, and he was spooked by the fire risks; he had just taken a course about how to avoid causing electrical fires when towing EVs, which evidently can start weeks after damage is inflicted, and shuddered at the idea of an lithium ion fire starting in someone’s garage. Never really thought about the fire risk now that really huge lithium batteries are getting more common.

throwaway0a5e 4y ago
All towing industry people are spooked by the fire risks. While lifetime fire risks are probably lower EVs so far seem more likely to catch fire "without a good reason".

kstenerud 4y ago

With all of the discussion going on there seems to be one thing that people are missing: This is the BEGINNING of the technology. Ford is the first to offer this, but now the rest of the companies will be falling all over themselves to compete. The competition will foster better and better technologies over the years, and as a result we'll have modular, bi-directional power systems for all sorts of purposes. And THAT is what's so great about this. I'm not so much excited about the F150 itself (as I wasn't excited about the Tesla Roadster itself), but rather about where this is going to lead over the next decade.

PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
That's what they said about Concorde too. The march of technology is not always inevitable.
- mensetmanusman 4y ago
  Also the case of nuclear medicine, which will probably be a thing after a century from now.
  - kstenerud 4y ago
    First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
      "They laughed at Galileo, they laughed at Einstein, but they also laughed at Bozo the Clown" - Carl Sagan
    - Aransentin 4y ago
      First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you lose, then you're forgotten about, then you're yet another example of survivorship bias.

mensetmanusman 4y ago

This adds a lot of value for cases where a house that has a continuous sump pump loses power during a storm.

kator 4y ago

Reminds me of this story: How Canadians Derailed a Train and Drove It to City Hall for Power After a Brutal Ice Storm[1] https://www.thedrive.com/news/39378/how-canadians-derailed-a-train-and-drove-it-to-city-hall-for-power-after-a-brutal-ice-storm https://www.thedrive.com/news/39378/how-canadians-derailed-a...

samstave 4y ago

mcguire 4y ago

This writer seems to be confused about the difference between a generator and a battery.

thepasswordis 4y ago

This truck honestly looks great, and $40k is a practically unbelievable price point. Great job, Ford. I'm holding out for a cybertruck, and will happily pay $100k for it, but...I dont't want to wait 3 more years. I kindof need a truck now, and if I can get one of these fords...

screye 4y ago

I genuinely don't like this, in part because it is so good. Society continues cramming unnecessary, yet surprisingly useful features into bigger and bigger cars. With each feature, it brings people 1 step closer to thinking that they actually need what is effectively a murder tank in their house. In the US, power outages are a once every few years kind of thing. Most truck uses are similarly once a year sort of uses. These trucks are by and large purchased by rich people in suburbs, who never so much as use 1% of the features they offer. Yet, people end up solo-driving these same over-bloated tanks for their commute and ferrying around a couple of people. It makes the roads riskier (already biggest contributor of youth death), increases road wear by 4x (weight squared) and leads to the general inefficiencies that come with car-centric design. Note: This doesn't apply to those in rural areas.

sn9 4y ago
You've clearly never lived along the Gulf coast. During natural disasters like hurricanes, this kinda thing can be a life saver. Many people buy diesel generators for these kinds of situations. This is a marked improvement.
- pornel 4y ago
  How does Japan survive regular Tsunami with their tiny Kei cars?
  - hunterb123 4y ago
    Are you asserting that Japanese people do not die by tsunamis, that lack of electricity doesn't attribute to deaths, or that tsunamis don't knock out the grid? Or a combination of those three? I'd affirm that lives would be saved with more backup power options. Whether Ford's solution is effective is TBD, but more power options overall is a good thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_T%C5%8Dhoku_earthquake_and_tsunami#Damage_and_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_T%C5%8Dhoku_earthquake_an...
aaronbeekay 4y ago
I live in a major US city and my power goes out at least once every couple of months, sometimes for hours at a time. I have installed several UPSes on important electrical things (servers, routers, modem) to avoid the hassles that come with regular power failures. (Not that the Lightning would be a big help here - these outages very rarely last a day or more - but it’s not the case that outages are rare events.)

everdrive 4y ago

Except that it's completely impossible to buy one.

FooBarBizBazz 4y ago

A couple acres of pasture will, using grass, turn solar energy into carbohydrates, which will power a donkey -- no rare earths or complicated supply chains needed. With enough donkeys, your transportation even becomes self-replicating -- so much for gigafactories. I don't understand why the worse technology won here. Pack animals are a much better solution if you really want to be prepared. They even do better in the rugged mountains from which you will inevitably have to snipe at the federales with your jezail. Think about it.

elif 4y ago

The fine print is where it all kind of falls apart. It says they recommend SunRun for every aspect of the grid modification, including utility coordination. Well, these are the states where SunRun operates... https://www.sunrun.com/solar-by-state https://www.sunrun.com/solar-by-state ... And their advertising doesn't mention EV plug installs anywhere so you are in DIY/SOL territory for half the country, and in for a unique experience if in a good one