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If you've been exposed to both Western and Eastern cultures, this is probably something you've seen both sides of. I grew up in Egypt. Family was family, inclu

If you've been exposed to both Western and Eastern cultures, this is probably something you've seen both sides of. I grew up in Egypt. Family was family, including extended family. You don't choose them, and you can't really distance yourself from them (you'd be crazy to try). You can to some extent choose your friends in school, but that is mostly "shared context"—they are people who probably are from your neighborhood or from the same "social class" (yes, Egypt was/is very class-ist). I live in the US. Everything is very individualistic, and even for those with families, it's very nuclear-family-oriented. Boundaries are well-respected. I'd say when friendships are formed, they're usually more around shared activities, regardless of where someone might be originally from, what their background is, etc. Very different worlds, with pros and cons in each.

chii 4y ago
> Very different worlds, with pros and cons in each. Which results in a higher quality of life for a person, all else being equal?
- Ozzie_osman 4y ago
  It's hard to compare, it's almost like apples to oranges. A big part of it might just be personal preference. From my experience, having a forced, tight-knit social fabric is very frustrating in the day-to-day, but I think it's probably better in the long-term. It's frustrating because you do not get as much privacy, "freedom", and flexibility. There is a lot of drama, as your business is everyone's business and vice-versa. Things you do can bring pride or shame to your family/friends/etc. That said, in the long-term, not being insulated is probably much healthier, and on the bad days / bad times, there are always people there for support (be it emotional, or if you actually need someone to help out financially or otherwise). You're never alone, and it's during the bad times that you appreciate not being alone. Personally, I find that I enjoy the ability to choose the social connections (which ones, and how deep) you make in the US. But, when I think about what I want for my kids... it's definitely the social fabric.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- seydor 4y ago
  Having experienced similar, individualism is superior, it allows the person to develop to their fullest extent. There is a lot of infantilism that comes with a traditional way of life. They optimize for different things . Individualism: human progress and breaking the boundaries. Traditionalism: extending the family population
  - rramadass 4y ago
    >They optimize for different things . Individualism: human progress and breaking the boundaries. Traditionalism: extending the family population Well Said!
  - inkblotuniverse 4y ago
    How do you swuare this with the wide-scale infantilization of westerners in the last 30 years? What do you think changed?
    - weberer 4y ago
      Its no surprise that the infantized westerners in question are in highly collectivist subcultures (Twitter/College communists, etc)
      - MichaelZuo 4y ago
        Wow that is a neat way to look at it.
- jarenmf 4y ago
  Having experienced both, I think individualism brings more freedom and independence which is crucial for some/most people.The cost is losing this tribal connection that gives you some sense of belonging and safety which fulfills the urge to be part of something. That's of course theoretically. In practice, the extended family is mostly a pain and a way to oppress individuals with different opinions.
  - tablespoon 4y ago
    > In practice, the extended family is mostly a pain and a way to oppress individuals with different opinions. You're kind of repeating yourself there. That seems like the cost of taking the individualist track, experienced from the perspective of the individualist.
- sundarurfriend 4y ago
  I've had opportunity to live with and become a part of two different branches of my family at different points in my life. One side of the family was somewhat dysfunctional, and more importantly didn't suit my personality, interests, and to some extent my worldview. While it did have some of the positives I'll mention below, overall, being part of this family felt like a minor thorn on my side. Like having an annoying neighbour. The other side of the family was much more functional (existing members were well-connected together), and suited me much better too (so the potential for me to form a new connection was strong too). And I realized how comforting such connections are, how much mental stability they give you. The "being part of a whole" experience was significant and strong: when any of you did well, the collective-you was doing well, and so you wanted it like your brain wants your legs to do well; when any one of you had a problem, it was automatically something for everyone to try and chip in to fix (in a way qualitatively different from most friendships). But to make this work, there needs to be constant honest communication between the members (which can feel like people poking their nose into your business when you're not getting the benefits from it), and you have to be willing to imbibe some of the shared culture of the community (so that, for eg., there's some agreement on what's good/bad for the community). The second part can be particularly difficult for children of immigrants trying to assimilate into a larger family (who are often the ones that get to experience this family-oriented lifestyle as a new thing), as there's not only the usual generational cultural difference, but also the larger fundamental cultural difference between the traditions of different parts of the world.
  - JohnBooty 4y ago
    The "being part of a whole" experience was significant and strong: when any of you did well, the collective-you was doing well, and so you wanted it like your brain wants your legs to do well One of the strongest (completely natural) "highs" I've experienced is playing team sports and completely abandoning my ego, while others did the same. One organism working toward a common goal. I would imagine that playing in a (cohesive, unselfish) band or an orchestra is much the same. Or acting in a play, etc. I have experienced this at work as well over the years, but much more fleetingly.
- goodpoint 4y ago
  > Which results in a higher quality of life for a person Neither: a balanced spot in the middle is what you find in happy societies, and it makes sense from a PoV of psychology. Strong collectivism harms individual's creativity and ability to develop. Rugged individualism... we all know about the mental health and loneliness crisis in US. See the recent school shootings.
- rramadass 4y ago
  No question that it is Western Individualism in today's Time and Context. However it is not sustainable in the long run since we live in a Shared Planet with Finite Resources. A Happy equilibrium needs to be found.
stuxnet79 4y ago
> Very different worlds, with pros and cons in each. Indeed they are. I've straddled both worlds for most of my adult life and while I have a bias to a more communal / less individualistic approach to life, I can acknowledge the benefits it brings. One thing I realized though is that years of being inculcated with non-western values has resulted in me having a stunted / underdeveloped "self-concept". This is very much ill-suited for life in the west. I struggle to set boundaries and have an unhealthy obsession with other people's concerns, their opinions. In other words I'm a strong 'people pleaser' which isn't a great trait to have in a dog-eat-dog society where each individual is only concerned about their own welfare. I'm curious if you have experienced something similar? How were you able to reconcile both perspectives?
- bobthepanda 4y ago
  Have you looked into Taoist philosophy? I wouldn't call it "individualistic" but it does teach about letting go of concerns and accepting things for the way they are.
- riantogo 4y ago
  Very much so. I stuggle with being blunt and direct. I feel I carry this from asian culture and doesn't translate well in the west.
  - globalise83 4y ago
    Spend a few years in Germany! I come from a very indirect culture by Western standards, but now after living in German for a while I just come out and say it, although not as harshly perhaps. It certainly makes getting things done easier.
- JohnBooty 4y ago
  Even as a white person who has lived in America his whole life, I struggle with this. I am a strong person but my instinct is to "people please" and do things in a communal way. I just think that acting communally makes more sense, so I do it. I assume that others will do the same. But they don't. As you say this can lead to negative outcomes.
hbarka 4y ago
I read the article to mean that shared context is independent of culture. I would say that in the US it is more about shared context than shared activities. We don’t have time for sharing activities but we certainly have time for identifying with a particular context. Politics is a prime example.
perfopt 4y ago
I have nothing useful to add. But I just have to say Squash players from your country are awesome

chii 4y ago

> Very different worlds, with pros and cons in each. Which results in a higher quality of life for a person, all else being equal?

Ozzie_osman 4y ago
It's hard to compare, it's almost like apples to oranges. A big part of it might just be personal preference. From my experience, having a forced, tight-knit social fabric is very frustrating in the day-to-day, but I think it's probably better in the long-term. It's frustrating because you do not get as much privacy, "freedom", and flexibility. There is a lot of drama, as your business is everyone's business and vice-versa. Things you do can bring pride or shame to your family/friends/etc. That said, in the long-term, not being insulated is probably much healthier, and on the bad days / bad times, there are always people there for support (be it emotional, or if you actually need someone to help out financially or otherwise). You're never alone, and it's during the bad times that you appreciate not being alone. Personally, I find that I enjoy the ability to choose the social connections (which ones, and how deep) you make in the US. But, when I think about what I want for my kids... it's definitely the social fabric.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
seydor 4y ago
Having experienced similar, individualism is superior, it allows the person to develop to their fullest extent. There is a lot of infantilism that comes with a traditional way of life. They optimize for different things . Individualism: human progress and breaking the boundaries. Traditionalism: extending the family population
- rramadass 4y ago
  >They optimize for different things . Individualism: human progress and breaking the boundaries. Traditionalism: extending the family population Well Said!
- inkblotuniverse 4y ago
  How do you swuare this with the wide-scale infantilization of westerners in the last 30 years? What do you think changed?
  - weberer 4y ago
    Its no surprise that the infantized westerners in question are in highly collectivist subcultures (Twitter/College communists, etc)
    - MichaelZuo 4y ago
      Wow that is a neat way to look at it.
jarenmf 4y ago
Having experienced both, I think individualism brings more freedom and independence which is crucial for some/most people.The cost is losing this tribal connection that gives you some sense of belonging and safety which fulfills the urge to be part of something. That's of course theoretically. In practice, the extended family is mostly a pain and a way to oppress individuals with different opinions.
- tablespoon 4y ago
  > In practice, the extended family is mostly a pain and a way to oppress individuals with different opinions. You're kind of repeating yourself there. That seems like the cost of taking the individualist track, experienced from the perspective of the individualist.
sundarurfriend 4y ago
I've had opportunity to live with and become a part of two different branches of my family at different points in my life. One side of the family was somewhat dysfunctional, and more importantly didn't suit my personality, interests, and to some extent my worldview. While it did have some of the positives I'll mention below, overall, being part of this family felt like a minor thorn on my side. Like having an annoying neighbour. The other side of the family was much more functional (existing members were well-connected together), and suited me much better too (so the potential for me to form a new connection was strong too). And I realized how comforting such connections are, how much mental stability they give you. The "being part of a whole" experience was significant and strong: when any of you did well, the collective-you was doing well, and so you wanted it like your brain wants your legs to do well; when any one of you had a problem, it was automatically something for everyone to try and chip in to fix (in a way qualitatively different from most friendships). But to make this work, there needs to be constant honest communication between the members (which can feel like people poking their nose into your business when you're not getting the benefits from it), and you have to be willing to imbibe some of the shared culture of the community (so that, for eg., there's some agreement on what's good/bad for the community). The second part can be particularly difficult for children of immigrants trying to assimilate into a larger family (who are often the ones that get to experience this family-oriented lifestyle as a new thing), as there's not only the usual generational cultural difference, but also the larger fundamental cultural difference between the traditions of different parts of the world.
- JohnBooty 4y ago
  The "being part of a whole" experience was significant and strong: when any of you did well, the collective-you was doing well, and so you wanted it like your brain wants your legs to do well One of the strongest (completely natural) "highs" I've experienced is playing team sports and completely abandoning my ego, while others did the same. One organism working toward a common goal. I would imagine that playing in a (cohesive, unselfish) band or an orchestra is much the same. Or acting in a play, etc. I have experienced this at work as well over the years, but much more fleetingly.
goodpoint 4y ago
> Which results in a higher quality of life for a person Neither: a balanced spot in the middle is what you find in happy societies, and it makes sense from a PoV of psychology. Strong collectivism harms individual's creativity and ability to develop. Rugged individualism... we all know about the mental health and loneliness crisis in US. See the recent school shootings.
rramadass 4y ago
No question that it is Western Individualism in today's Time and Context. However it is not sustainable in the long run since we live in a Shared Planet with Finite Resources. A Happy equilibrium needs to be found.

stuxnet79 4y ago

> Very different worlds, with pros and cons in each. Indeed they are. I've straddled both worlds for most of my adult life and while I have a bias to a more communal / less individualistic approach to life, I can acknowledge the benefits it brings. One thing I realized though is that years of being inculcated with non-western values has resulted in me having a stunted / underdeveloped "self-concept". This is very much ill-suited for life in the west. I struggle to set boundaries and have an unhealthy obsession with other people's concerns, their opinions. In other words I'm a strong 'people pleaser' which isn't a great trait to have in a dog-eat-dog society where each individual is only concerned about their own welfare. I'm curious if you have experienced something similar? How were you able to reconcile both perspectives?

bobthepanda 4y ago
Have you looked into Taoist philosophy? I wouldn't call it "individualistic" but it does teach about letting go of concerns and accepting things for the way they are.
riantogo 4y ago
Very much so. I stuggle with being blunt and direct. I feel I carry this from asian culture and doesn't translate well in the west.
- globalise83 4y ago
  Spend a few years in Germany! I come from a very indirect culture by Western standards, but now after living in German for a while I just come out and say it, although not as harshly perhaps. It certainly makes getting things done easier.
JohnBooty 4y ago
Even as a white person who has lived in America his whole life, I struggle with this. I am a strong person but my instinct is to "people please" and do things in a communal way. I just think that acting communally makes more sense, so I do it. I assume that others will do the same. But they don't. As you say this can lead to negative outcomes.

hbarka 4y ago

I read the article to mean that shared context is independent of culture. I would say that in the US it is more about shared context than shared activities. We don’t have time for sharing activities but we certainly have time for identifying with a particular context. Politics is a prime example.

perfopt 4y ago

I have nothing useful to add. But I just have to say Squash players from your country are awesome