4 ms·

Something that always bugs me with stuff like this. The people in favor of these trainings and woke stuff in general make this claim that they are doing it beca

by anm89 4y ago

Something that always bugs me with stuff like this. The people in favor of these trainings and woke stuff in general make this claim that they are doing it because they are so deeply compassionate and have a ceaseless drive to do the right thing. But they never actually try to be compassionate or make situations better. Here's the response from a supporter > "In the below figure, we see a textbook example of a tenured faculty member whose grasp on human decency is on par with his grasp on the reply-all function," wrote MGM doctoral candidate Jeffrey Letourneau in a reply-all email obtained by The Chronicle. Is this guy the standard bearer for decency? Going into full on personal attack mode when someone disagrees with you. Isn't his whole gripe with this other guy a lack of decency? How does this not strike everyone as disingenuous?

alephnan 4y ago
In the same way some people say they are "color blind" and people who reject that under the pretense that it would be racist to be "color blind". The people who are "actively anti-racist" think of the world in strictly racist terms.
- gsk22 4y ago
  Being aware of racial differences is not the same as being racist...
  - alephnan 4y ago
    So you don't believe people are equal?
    - threatofrain 4y ago
      Not unless we do the proper work to make it so. Values prescribe where we want to go, not where we are today or the history we came from. Thus I expect a doctor who is treating someone of my ethnic background to take into account any differences which would benefit my medical outcomes.
      - alephnan 4y ago
        Since you're talking about the example of healthcare, you're saying people from different races are physiologically different? If they're physiologically different, are they somehow less capable of high functioning abilities? Or is their health a function of socioeconomics? If it's socioeconomic, then Nigerian-Americans and other socioeconomically successful immigrant groups should be positively discriminated as to be equitable to disadvantaged socioeconomic groups such as Vietnamese-Americans and Filipinos Americans. Or, for the purposes of appearing diverse, tech companies and universities include Nigerian-Americans in their statistics of black employees and Southeast Asians in with other Asians ?
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - boppo1 4y ago
        >do the proper work to make it so. What, specifically, is the proper work? How, specifically, will we know we have been successful and the work is completed?
- drewcoo 4y ago
  And people with "eyes" are always talking about the things they "see," always shoving that in the faces of people who claim they don't have to "have visions" to understand the world! You're comparing people who are aware of a problem and trying to raise awareness with people who actively deny it. And claiming harm is being done to the denialists. For what it's worth, there is also a common problem with people who want to impose themselves on others via their righteousness. But that happens across the political spectrum.
  - alephnan 4y ago
    > You're comparing people who are aware of a problem and trying to raise awareness with people who actively deny it. And claiming harm is being done to the denialists. This is circular reasoning. The same can be said by the opposition.
  - the_third_wave 4y ago
    > And people with "eyes" are always talking about the things they "see," That is, in their own terms, Ableism > people who are aware of a problem More 'people who are intent on creating a problem to serve their own needs': Racism is not dead, but it is on life support — kept alive by politicians, race hustlers and people who get a sense of superiority by denouncing others as "racists." [1]. That whole line is a quote from an essay written by Thomas Sowell, conveniently put away as "acting white" [2], having "internalised whiteness" or being "a white voice in a black body". 80 years ago people referred to "der ewige Jude" when talking about their scape goats, it did not end well. History is there to be learned from, not to be repeated if at all possible. > And claiming harm is being done to the denialists Harm is a word out of their own dictionary [3] still waiting for a good definition. It is not generally used by those who oppose "woke" activism other than in jest. > For what it's worth, there is also a common problem with people who want to impose themselves on others via their righteousness. But that happens across the political spectrum. "They are doing it as well" is whataboutery and not the issue at hand here so let's keep it out of the discussion. [1] https://jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell072512.php3#.X30VU5NKh_l https://jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell072512.php3#.X30VU5... [2] https://newdiscourses.com/tftw-acting-white/ https://newdiscourses.com/tftw-acting-white/ [3] https://newdiscourses.com/translations-from-the-wokish/#H https://newdiscourses.com/translations-from-the-wokish/#H
Broken_Hippo 4y ago
Well, you are right if you are sticking up for a person with - according to the article - a history of transphobic and racist comments and so on. However, it does serve as a warning to folks getting ready to take his class and would like to avoid their lifestyle being crapped on as part of a lecture or every time they visit a door. Additionally, it provides a reason the professor didn't want to take the class: You know, because they might tell him he cannot be openly transphobic. Additionally, most of the folks I've met would still think he deserves things like food and housing and medical care as a basic human right, which he may or may not find scarce if he loses his job.
- nradov 4y ago
  Food and housing are not human rights, like freedom of speech. People have to actually work to grow food and build homes. But in affluent societies we have a moral obligation to ensure that those who are incapable of working have food and housing.
  - Broken_Hippo 4y ago
    That's just not true. Poor people have less speech than rich folks, especially in 'right to work' states, where you can get fired for basically any reason. Children have no right to free speech in the US, including self-expression (If you cannot say 'no' to religion and be heard and not punished, you do not have free speech). Viewing housing and food as basic human rights just dismisses other folks: We need those to live and to work. This isn't really the same as speech.
- hervature 4y ago
  Personally, I do think the comic is valid commentary on transgenderism and identity as a whole. Obviously, transphobic people would find it funny as they would interpret it as mockery. So, by posting the comic, you are bundling yourself with a bunch of bigots. However, if you look deeper in the comic, what is part of your identity? You have people bringing courts to recognize their younger age [1]. So, simultaneously, we have inspirational posters like "age is a choice" but legally it is how many times the Earth has gone around the sun while you were on it. Likewise, one can identify as a man/woman/etc (which is ok) but then it is unreasonable to enforce them to use the XX bathroom or the XY bathroom (monosomy and multisomy can use whatever). Anyway, I don't want to stoke a flame, just want to point out that the identity question is rife for debate. Funnily, without the public engaging in debate, I believe the world of athletics is being forced to resolve these questions [2]. [1] - https://www.aarp.org/disrupt-aging/stories/info-2019/legally-change-age.html https://www.aarp.org/disrupt-aging/stories/info-2019/legally... [2] - https://www.skysports.com/olympics/news/15234/12617837/thomas-bach-no-one-size-fits-all-approach-for-transgender-athlete-inclusion https://www.skysports.com/olympics/news/15234/12617837/thoma...
mlyle 4y ago
> Going into full on personal attack mode when someone disagrees with you. I think it's funny how you make this into firing the first "shot"-- when making a snarky reply-all and having comics posted outside your office that reject other peoples' identities is no big deal.
- anm89 4y ago
  Where do I talk about who's firing the first shot? I didn't and I don't think that. You're just inventing a version of what I said that is easier for you to respond to. Sure, this guy is responding to what the original professor said. And he's being notably more aggressive. And my point is that if you're main motivation was being driven by compassion, that's not how you'd act. That's not what he's doing though, he's trying to damage someone he disagrees with to score points for what he perceives to be "his team" and doing it under a false facade of compassion. It's just a gang fight. He's trying to damage the other team to support his team. So at least don't be surprised when the other team fights back.
  - mlyle 4y ago
    > And he's being notably more aggressive. I don't agree. I think the second that you decide to reply-all and call equity training Maoist propaganda, you're being pretty damn aggressive. I also think that having comics that ridicule other peoples' identities posted outside your door is not so awesome or unaggressive. The training is likely Duke's implementation of training requirements under Title 6 and Title 9 to continue receiving federal funding, and the professor's attendance is almost certainly contractually required. Deciding to reply all and lecture everyone about it is pretty cheap and aggressive.
tablespoon 4y ago
>> "In the below figure, we see a textbook example of a tenured faculty member whose grasp on human decency is on par with his grasp on the reply-all function," wrote MGM doctoral candidate Jeffrey Letourneau in a reply-all email obtained by The Chronicle. > Is this guy the standard bearer for decency? Going into full on personal attack mode when someone disagrees with you. In this context "human decency" is a more like a euphemism meaning "on board with our political program." Though I suppose this could also be a case where someone is so deluded think the only way to be decent it to be on board with their political program. The term "hate" can also frequently be read similarly.

by anm89 4y ago

alephnan 4y ago

In the same way some people say they are "color blind" and people who reject that under the pretense that it would be racist to be "color blind". The people who are "actively anti-racist" think of the world in strictly racist terms.

gsk22 4y ago
Being aware of racial differences is not the same as being racist...
- alephnan 4y ago
  So you don't believe people are equal?
  - threatofrain 4y ago
    Not unless we do the proper work to make it so. Values prescribe where we want to go, not where we are today or the history we came from. Thus I expect a doctor who is treating someone of my ethnic background to take into account any differences which would benefit my medical outcomes.
    - alephnan 4y ago
      Since you're talking about the example of healthcare, you're saying people from different races are physiologically different? If they're physiologically different, are they somehow less capable of high functioning abilities? Or is their health a function of socioeconomics? If it's socioeconomic, then Nigerian-Americans and other socioeconomically successful immigrant groups should be positively discriminated as to be equitable to disadvantaged socioeconomic groups such as Vietnamese-Americans and Filipinos Americans. Or, for the purposes of appearing diverse, tech companies and universities include Nigerian-Americans in their statistics of black employees and Southeast Asians in with other Asians ?
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - boppo1 4y ago
      >do the proper work to make it so. What, specifically, is the proper work? How, specifically, will we know we have been successful and the work is completed?
drewcoo 4y ago
And people with "eyes" are always talking about the things they "see," always shoving that in the faces of people who claim they don't have to "have visions" to understand the world! You're comparing people who are aware of a problem and trying to raise awareness with people who actively deny it. And claiming harm is being done to the denialists. For what it's worth, there is also a common problem with people who want to impose themselves on others via their righteousness. But that happens across the political spectrum.
- alephnan 4y ago
  > You're comparing people who are aware of a problem and trying to raise awareness with people who actively deny it. And claiming harm is being done to the denialists. This is circular reasoning. The same can be said by the opposition.
- the_third_wave 4y ago
  > And people with "eyes" are always talking about the things they "see," That is, in their own terms, Ableism > people who are aware of a problem More 'people who are intent on creating a problem to serve their own needs': Racism is not dead, but it is on life support — kept alive by politicians, race hustlers and people who get a sense of superiority by denouncing others as "racists." [1]. That whole line is a quote from an essay written by Thomas Sowell, conveniently put away as "acting white" [2], having "internalised whiteness" or being "a white voice in a black body". 80 years ago people referred to "der ewige Jude" when talking about their scape goats, it did not end well. History is there to be learned from, not to be repeated if at all possible. > And claiming harm is being done to the denialists Harm is a word out of their own dictionary [3] still waiting for a good definition. It is not generally used by those who oppose "woke" activism other than in jest. > For what it's worth, there is also a common problem with people who want to impose themselves on others via their righteousness. But that happens across the political spectrum. "They are doing it as well" is whataboutery and not the issue at hand here so let's keep it out of the discussion. [1] https://jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell072512.php3#.X30VU5NKh_l https://jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell072512.php3#.X30VU5... [2] https://newdiscourses.com/tftw-acting-white/ https://newdiscourses.com/tftw-acting-white/ [3] https://newdiscourses.com/translations-from-the-wokish/#H https://newdiscourses.com/translations-from-the-wokish/#H

Broken_Hippo 4y ago

Well, you are right if you are sticking up for a person with - according to the article - a history of transphobic and racist comments and so on. However, it does serve as a warning to folks getting ready to take his class and would like to avoid their lifestyle being crapped on as part of a lecture or every time they visit a door. Additionally, it provides a reason the professor didn't want to take the class: You know, because they might tell him he cannot be openly transphobic. Additionally, most of the folks I've met would still think he deserves things like food and housing and medical care as a basic human right, which he may or may not find scarce if he loses his job.

nradov 4y ago
Food and housing are not human rights, like freedom of speech. People have to actually work to grow food and build homes. But in affluent societies we have a moral obligation to ensure that those who are incapable of working have food and housing.
- Broken_Hippo 4y ago
  That's just not true. Poor people have less speech than rich folks, especially in 'right to work' states, where you can get fired for basically any reason. Children have no right to free speech in the US, including self-expression (If you cannot say 'no' to religion and be heard and not punished, you do not have free speech). Viewing housing and food as basic human rights just dismisses other folks: We need those to live and to work. This isn't really the same as speech.
hervature 4y ago
Personally, I do think the comic is valid commentary on transgenderism and identity as a whole. Obviously, transphobic people would find it funny as they would interpret it as mockery. So, by posting the comic, you are bundling yourself with a bunch of bigots. However, if you look deeper in the comic, what is part of your identity? You have people bringing courts to recognize their younger age [1]. So, simultaneously, we have inspirational posters like "age is a choice" but legally it is how many times the Earth has gone around the sun while you were on it. Likewise, one can identify as a man/woman/etc (which is ok) but then it is unreasonable to enforce them to use the XX bathroom or the XY bathroom (monosomy and multisomy can use whatever). Anyway, I don't want to stoke a flame, just want to point out that the identity question is rife for debate. Funnily, without the public engaging in debate, I believe the world of athletics is being forced to resolve these questions [2]. [1] - https://www.aarp.org/disrupt-aging/stories/info-2019/legally-change-age.html https://www.aarp.org/disrupt-aging/stories/info-2019/legally... [2] - https://www.skysports.com/olympics/news/15234/12617837/thomas-bach-no-one-size-fits-all-approach-for-transgender-athlete-inclusion https://www.skysports.com/olympics/news/15234/12617837/thoma...

mlyle 4y ago

> Going into full on personal attack mode when someone disagrees with you. I think it's funny how you make this into firing the first "shot"-- when making a snarky reply-all and having comics posted outside your office that reject other peoples' identities is no big deal.

anm89 4y ago
Where do I talk about who's firing the first shot? I didn't and I don't think that. You're just inventing a version of what I said that is easier for you to respond to. Sure, this guy is responding to what the original professor said. And he's being notably more aggressive. And my point is that if you're main motivation was being driven by compassion, that's not how you'd act. That's not what he's doing though, he's trying to damage someone he disagrees with to score points for what he perceives to be "his team" and doing it under a false facade of compassion. It's just a gang fight. He's trying to damage the other team to support his team. So at least don't be surprised when the other team fights back.
- mlyle 4y ago
  > And he's being notably more aggressive. I don't agree. I think the second that you decide to reply-all and call equity training Maoist propaganda, you're being pretty damn aggressive. I also think that having comics that ridicule other peoples' identities posted outside your door is not so awesome or unaggressive. The training is likely Duke's implementation of training requirements under Title 6 and Title 9 to continue receiving federal funding, and the professor's attendance is almost certainly contractually required. Deciding to reply all and lecture everyone about it is pretty cheap and aggressive.

tablespoon 4y ago

>> "In the below figure, we see a textbook example of a tenured faculty member whose grasp on human decency is on par with his grasp on the reply-all function," wrote MGM doctoral candidate Jeffrey Letourneau in a reply-all email obtained by The Chronicle. > Is this guy the standard bearer for decency? Going into full on personal attack mode when someone disagrees with you. In this context "human decency" is a more like a euphemism meaning "on board with our political program." Though I suppose this could also be a case where someone is so deluded think the only way to be decent it to be on board with their political program. The term "hate" can also frequently be read similarly.