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I was an IT manager in a school (not any more), and was asked by a parent why I wasn’t using Linux everywhere. Our Microsoft licensing cost £1000 per year, and
by jms429 4y ago
I was an IT manager in a school (not any more), and was asked by a parent why I wasn’t using Linux everywhere.
Our Microsoft licensing cost £1000 per year, and our MSP cost about £10,000 for remote support and a weekly onsite.
Using Linux, our licensing cost would have gone, and maybe we’d have gotten another year or two from desktop hardware, but our support costs would have increased massively - I couldn’t find a local msp who’d do desktop Linux support the same way we were getting. not to mention all the training for teachers, and the nightmare of finding replacements for things like smart notebook, custom assessment software, and windows only curriculum software.
Biggest headache would have been the teachers. Some of them found windows 10 too difficult to use, and pushing them onto Linux would have needed a full time techie on hand.
linux is better is not always the case.
- nicoburns 4y agoFar point regarding support, but I’ve found that Linux is often actually a lot more friendly for non technical people than windows a long as you don’t step beyond what is possible in the UI.
- the__alchemist 4y agoWhat were the use cases you've found success at? I've only found Linux (Ubuntu etc) to be a smooth and stable experience when not installing things beyond what's included by default. Have tried some variant of Linux every other year for the past 20. Turns into dependency hell and arcane incantations.
- pessimizer 4y agoIt might be that you're thwarted by trying to install it on bleeding edge machines. I've run Debian stable on my home servers and Debian testing on my workstations for years. Nothing ever goes wrong, it's boring. Debian stable is rock solid.
- nicoburns 4y agoThe only things I've had issues with were: - Device drivers and configuration of things like the X Server. From what I've heard this can be mitigated by buying well-supported hardware. - Software that wasn't included in the distro's package repositories. This is where linux can really fall down in my experience, along with the fact software like MS Office isn't supported at all. But if you don't need anything beyond standard software then it can often "just work" more smoothly than something like Windows.
- the__alchemist 4y agoSame experience re standard software - Generally works great out of the box if you can get through the installation process. Should have clarified re distro's packages working great too.
- blagie 4y agoIt's actually more friendly in the command line too. I've done support on both. Anything reaching a high level of complexity basically falls apart on Windows. I can tell someone on Unix: "Type exactly X" into the command prompt. If I want someone to get there editing the registry, using the Window terminal and/or modifying complex system settings through a GUI which changes seemingly every week, it's basically a dead-end. Kids learn terminals fine too.
- ed25519FUUU 4y agoYou’ve never had to support Linux if you think this. Hardware support is absolutely all over the board. It works but often requires tinkering, which is a support nightmare when you have hundreds of potentially thousands of users.
- trashtester 4y agoLinux works perfectly fine for completely non-technical people, who can do everything and anything in a browser, and who doesn't game, use a lot of different peripherals beyond maybe a printer, and upgrades their system every 15 years or so. Like my parents. You can take away their root access, and if needed, ssh in and do remote support if needed. Obviously, linux also work excellently for advanced users, those who can just fire up a windows VM and pass through a GPU if they want some windows functionality. (Exactly what I'm doing now. I like to run Windows on top of zfs, as since snapshots make backups/clones, etc so easy.). For those inbetween, that do intermediate complexity tasks and don't want to struggle with the OS to do them, Windows/Mac is easier.
- GordonS 4y agoWow, I guess this was a small school? Was it "only" Microsoft Office licenses, or was other software included too?
- bombcar 4y agoMicrosoft knows the value of having people used to their software. You can get absolutely insane educational discounts.
- selykg 4y agoNon-profit here. Getting an E5 license is simply a no brainer. It’s insane.
- grammers 4y agoAgreed. Once kids learned it at school, they are reluctant to switch - just listen what people say about teachers... That's Microsoft's strategy.
- newsclues 4y agoThat value needs to be understood and exploited by the OSS competition to Microsoft.
- jms429 4y agoAt the time, MS educational licensing was cheap as hell, we paid a set price per teacher and that then included windows & office for everyone.p, including free licenses for the kids to download office at home. I’m sure it’s changed now.
- kkfx 4y agoIt's not a matter of better, but a matter of society: no single surveillance capitalism software must be allowed for children nor public institutions in general, by law. States who allow that are already in a deep threat, and no, I'm not joking. Beside that: Microsoft have invested big money on desktops, their own way, it's normal you find better support around, and that's because schools do not teach anything IT related as they MUST, witch means for users, not against them...
- hnusersarelame 4y ago
- jandrese 4y agoMy school district has all of the machines on their domain. Linux still doesn't have anything remotely as capable as Active Directory.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- chrisseaton 4y agoNow that almost everything is accessed by a web browser... what do you even need Active Directory for? Like printers or something?
- jandrese 4y agoFor locking down the machines so the kids don't mess them up. For pushing policy down when they need to change something. All of the stuff that's routine for an AD administrator.
- chrisseaton 4y agoDon’t know why we just don’t give people a laptop and a login for the web services they need. If they can run a laptop at home just fine why does it need to be any more locked down than that for school work? And what policies do you need to just run a web browser? It’s not the NSA.
- ocdtrekkie 4y agoSo, your entire tech support will be inundated with undoing scams and ransomware perpetrated by malicious search ads, for one. Chrome is outright terrifying to have on a computer if you don't push down about four pages of enterprise policies to lock it down. The idea of letting employees have administrative access to PCs that sensitive corporate data or childrens' personal info is on is downright terrifying.
- deleted 4y ago
- wtch98 4y ago
- enchiridion 4y agoTowns choose to continue using lead pipes all the time and pay for water treatment that makes them safe.
- uthinter 4y agoThis is a very poor analogy. The benefit Linux is offering is marginal and even in terms of cost which can be recuperated or rather offset by hiring more professionals .
- Kwpolska 4y agoWhat, exactly, makes Windows so bad you compare it to a “lead-laced watter supply”?
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- temp8964 4y agoAlso many comments here forget people have both work computer and personal computers. Most people are familiar with the Windows eco system from their personal computer. Forcing them to learn a different system is just unrealistic.
- prmoustache 4y agoI don't know, 25 years ago most people didn't even have a personnal computer at home yet they were forced to learn to use desktops from windows, os2, solaris cde, mac os or sometimes just an arcane text based terminal. Not so long ago people were still working mostly with a fullscreen curse based window from a telnet client.
- scarface74 4y agoOne third of households had computers by 1997 https://www.statista.com/statistics/214641/household-adoption-rate-of-computer-in-the-us-since-1997/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/214641/household-adoptio... Most of those were Windows PCs. OS/2 never took off for home users. Schools were using either Windows or a few were using Macs - both running MS Office.
- pessimizer 4y agoNo, it separates school from home. It isn't like Debian stable with a MATE desktop could confuse anyone.
- whywhywhywhy 4y ago>Most people are familiar with the Windows eco system from their personal computer. Think you might be shocked just how few people have a “personal computer” anymore. Most children and even most adults these days experience computing though tablets and phones.
- npteljes 4y agoThat's the point everyone should consider in the Windows/Linux debate. Windows/Office is not the de facto standard because they are superior technology - they won because Microsoft produced good enough software, employed every business trick in the book while also pioneering some, and because they covered the bases OP pointed out. Service and user experience is not only a very important part to provide, but often the part that makes or breaks the product. That said, what schools teach is just some legislation away. I believe regulation could make it happen even now, if the regulators wanted so. But, of course, regulators are people too and therefore, yet again, it's not up to the technology itself to be better.
- ed25519FUUU 4y agoI think you’re missing OPs main point that any money saved from switching to open source would be eaten away and reversed dramatically with support costs. Can you get unlimited remote support and a weekly on-site tech for $10k a year? No way.
- npteljes 4y agoI'm not missing that at all, I'm saying two things, that for one, Microsoft does this support thing well enough and two, legislation doesn't have to take the easier way, if they'd say that schools must teach X, the market would figure it out somehow. It would probably even be a worse experience as it is currently, but that never stopped any legislator.
- scarface74 4y agoYes, just like the “market” figured out how to increase privacy after the GDPR and not just a shit ton of cookie pop ups.
- bobthepanda 4y agoThe problem with regulating what kind of tech you should use is that it can be surprisingly hard to change or update after the fact. South Korea mandated usage of ActiveX in the 1990s as one of the first countries to push into online shopping, and it took until 2020 to get rid of it (and Internet Explorer) altogether.
- dgb23 4y agoFor this to work we would need a specialized, simplified, "just works" distribution with a well defined set of hardware support and software packages. Slow moving, standardized, minimal configuration capabilities and with laser focus on security, "non-technical" and educational UX and documentation. Companies and institutions could build on that foundation to provide support and integration. It could enable a kind of specialized market for IT in education that can be relied on. Sounds like a monumental effort. But doable. Are there any attempts at this?
- anticensor 4y agoTurkish government attempted twice and mostly failed: https://www.pardus.org.tr https://www.pardus.org.tr
- pragmatic 4y agoCromebooks have filled this niche for better or worse.
- ssivark 4y agoI would imagine that Debian (with the benefit of community+repository size and inertia) or Fedora (with the benefit of community+repository size, and something adjacent to commercial support) might be the best bet for such a distribution. Rolling anything different is likely to fragment avenues for support. IMHO, even Linux Mint / Pop OS feel too niche. Rolling a custom distro is almost surely a bad idea.
- kwhitefoot 4y agohttps://www.skolelinux.de/en/ https://www.skolelinux.de/en/
- jjtheblunt 4y agoWould it work if that distribution were Win11, since it's got WSL2 ?
- eternityforest 4y agoMint already provides a distro like that. I think the missing part is application software.
- AussieWog93 4y agoI've heard this is why schools are switching to Chromebooks now - massively reduced support costs.
- alaricus 4y ago
- digisign 4y ago> not to mention all the training for teachers, and the nightmare of finding ... windows-only ... software This was the traditional argument against moving away from MS products. Suddenly, most of these folks moved to Google products a few years back. Somehow these points didn't factor in. Why do you think that is?
- scarface74 4y agoBecause Google manages most of the complexity.
- digisign 4y agoThey do manage a lot of things, but not the two things OP mentioned and I copied.
- fartcannon 4y agoWhat happened is that Google has enough money to take the purchasing people out for drinks once a year.
- scarface74 4y agoThat’s not how IT government procurement works. We go through training specifically aimed at what we can and can’t do when trying to get government contracts. I don’t work for Google, I work at another BigTech company that sells consulting services to government.
- fartcannon 4y agoI'm glad youre an honest person, but I've seen the procurement process of my government happen in real time. It's not a diligent process. The requirements are often written based off previous winning project agreements, in a way that nearly guarantees certain companies always win. Sometimes this is due to the incompetence of the gov, but usually it's because the people writing the specs have to work with the people that win so they choose the ones that they like the best. What's a good way to make someone like you without a bribe? Invite them out. It's a job you can get. Sometimes it's called Relationship Manager.
- pessimizer 4y agoIt's Free software, there's no earthly reason that every school should be individually figuring out how to support Linux. Open a state office of Linux support and stock it full of developers and techs. Create a federal network of those to work on large projects. We need to shed the consumer mentality when it comes to FOSS. It gives us bizarre expectations of it, and we impose unnecessary limitations on ourselves without thinking. It's ours, and we can do what we want with it.
- kwhitefoot 4y agoJust use https://www.skolelinux.de/en/ https://www.skolelinux.de/en/
- pessimizer 4y agoThere are endless options. School systems have thousands of employees and administrators; if they can't figure out how to support what are generally wonderfully crafted, complex pieces of software handed to them on a plate, they're not really fit for purpose. We're outsourcing institutional self-sufficiency to Microsoft and Google.
- scarface74 4y agoThe average enterprise with more than 1000 employees use 150 different SaaS products. https://explodingtopics.com/blog/saas-statistics https://explodingtopics.com/blog/saas-statistics Should they also brings those in house?
- fartcannon 4y agoYes, governments and public institutions like schools should do that.
- scarface74 4y agoYou seriously think that every school district should have the expertise to develop software that 150different software companies specialize in?
- thawaya3113 4y ago> Some of them found windows 10 too difficult to use That’s probably because Windows 10 is more confusing to use than most general audience Linux distros.
- hw1618 4y agoI work for an open source agency that aims to solve a similar problem for non-profits, by re-skinning an existing open source tool to make it more usable, and only charging them for implementation rather than software fees. I don't see why a similar solution couldn't exist for education, to pass the benefits of the open source ecosystem onto less technical users.
- raxxorraxor 4y agoSome need to start with it, IT support will follow after what people use. Still, there are unresolved problems. A common school distribution would be good, also central group policies for Linux. This infrastructure is sadly often lacking for Linux and any self-made solution cannot scale beyond individual schools. But I think using Linux would increase technical competence of pupils massively. They don't learn anything from using another iPad. They can use that better than their parents anyway because they already have phones.