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> Efforts aimed at reviving U.S. semiconductor manufacturing and strengthening technology supply chains advanced this week with the introduction of a catch-all

> Efforts aimed at reviving U.S. semiconductor manufacturing and strengthening technology supply chains advanced this week with the introduction of a catch-all bill that funds “surge production” of U.S.-made chips while investing in broad-based technology R&D. There's a ton of Superfund[0] sites in Silicon Valley[1]. What's the current situation re. semiconductor manufacturing and toxic waste? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superfund https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superfund [1] "The Superfund Sites of Silicon Valley" https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/26/lens/the-superfund-sites-of-silicon-valley.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/26/lens/the-superfund-sites-...

lumost 4y ago
Manufacturing is generally pretty messy. But green tech has come a long way in identifying effective alternatives to toxic chemicals, as well as effective management and disposal techniques for what is toxic. Odds are good that re-shored manufacturing will be cleaner than older plants built in regions with lower environmental regulation.
- sremani 4y ago
  >> green tech has come a long way in identifying effective alternatives to toxic chemicals Enlighten us, how manufacturing 'silicone' has become less chemical intensive.
  - throwaway743 4y ago
    FTFY: Silicon
    - sremani 4y ago
      between spelling nazis and reflexive downvoters .. who are entitled their respective actions.. what I am looking for is, how is the whole Quartz to Wafers process has become green and what kind of reduction and/or elimination of toxic materials has been achieved. A good proper justification of the claim from the claimant or supporters of that argument is useful.
      - acomjean 4y ago
        I don’t have exact details but I did work in an civil/environment consulting companies (we worked remediating the GE silicone waste site in Upstate NY .. ) which might be why people are senesitive to the spelling.[1] But generally those chemical engineers are pretty good at cleaning up the processes (it cheaper, also cheaper to ship manufacturing overseas…) The Resource Conservation and Recovery act https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_Conservation_and_Recovery_Act https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_Conservation_and_Re... And toxic substance control acts seemed to rules of note. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_Substances_Control_Act_of_1976 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_Substances_Control_Act... GE silicones [1]https://www.epa.gov/hwcorrectiveactionsites/hazardous-waste-cleanup-momentive-performance-materials-silicones-llc https://www.epa.gov/hwcorrectiveactionsites/hazardous-waste-...
      - adrian_b 4y ago
        In this case the spelling nazis had rightfully pointed to the correct spelling, because the wrong spelling is not a problem of style or preferences, but it causes a confusion between two different chemical substances, with very different properties and applications. "silicon" is the chemical element number 14, and this name, which is used in the English-speaking countries, was coined by someone who believed that it is a good idea for it to rhyme with "carbon" (actually a bad idea in my opinion) "silicone" is the generic name for a class of plastics, i.e. the polymers with a poly-siloxane structure. This name was coined by someone who believed that it is a good idea for it to rhyme with "acetone", because he erroneously believed that these polymers have a structure similar to ketones.
        throwaway743 4y ago
        Thank you. Not trying to be a spelling nazi, just that those two tend to get mixed up quite a bit and can cause people confusion.
  - karmicthreat 4y ago
    It's not less chemical intensive at all. Some aqueous processes have replaced more toxic ones. But dissolved copper and solvent waste makes up the majority of ever fabs waste stream. TSMC/Intel etc have made pretty big strides in zero landfill hazardous waste. It just gets recycled and used in other processes internally or by other companies. I don't know what the Chinese fabs do, so I have no idea if pump their waste out into the environment.
    - Kadin 4y ago
      > dissolved copper You would think that dissolved copper would have some recovery value, given the price of copper. I am reminded of the waste from silver halide photographic processing, which at one point was just dumped into rivers (an unfortunate amount went into the Great Lakes); when the price of silver increased, suddenly it became worthwhile to recover the silver rather than let it go down the literal drain.
- iancmceachern 4y ago
  From my understanding the chemicals haven't changed, and can't really be changed. As far as i understand we will always need these crazy bad chemicals to make chips. What has, hopefully, changed is we aren't allowing companies to store it in leaking underground tanks, etc. All these superfund sites aren't a result if business as usual, in each case there is some major, systemic, intentional oversight and frankly corruption. Source - I've worked some in that industry designing automation for asml, applied, etc. Not in the semiconductor industry but a good example of the kind of thing that results in a super fund site is Rocky Flats in Colorado. There is a now famous news broadcast where the representative from the department of energy is saying "there is no fire" and a big fire can be clearly seen behind them. They were machining plutonium and uranium nuclear bomb triggers on lathes in special glove boxes with particle capture and ventilation systems that were supposed to scrub the air before venting it to atmosphere. These systems weren't properly maintained and they got clogged up with radioactive dust and caught fire. It was later found that they were dumping radioactive dust into the air, and had hundreds of barrels of radioactive waste in steel barrels that were rusted through leaking into the ground for decades. It's the only time one federal agency (the FBI) raided a facility of another federal agency (DOE).
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - nickff 4y ago
    There have been a huge number of changes to the chemicals used in photolithography over time, specifically the photoresists.
    - iancmceachern 4y ago
      Yeah but lots of the super terrible stuff is in the surface prep and etching chemicals. All those crazy acids and bases that eat through everything, are highly toxic, and deadly in tiny quantities. https://www.prevor.com/en/chemical-risks-in-semiconductors-industry/ https://www.prevor.com/en/chemical-risks-in-semiconductors-i...
- aaronbrethorst 4y ago
  Meanwhile, the Supreme Court is about to gut the EPA's authority. Hope you're able to afford to move far away from plants that spew toxic chemicals! https://www.npr.org/2022/02/28/1082934438/supreme-court-to-hear-a-case-that-could-limit-the-epas-power-to-fight-climate-ch https://www.npr.org/2022/02/28/1082934438/supreme-court-to-h...
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - colechristensen 4y ago
    Eh, I’m relatively in favor of limiting government agencies effectively making law up all by themselves. That is not the correct fix for a dysfunctional legislature.
    - paulmd 4y ago
      If you think Congress is dysfunctional now, wait until you require congress to individually specify safety limits for each compound, etc. You'll have congresspeople grandstanding about how restricting X chemical is killing hardworking small businesses in their state, etc. Which the court knows damn well will be the outcome - that's the goal. Keep anything from being done.
      - colechristensen 4y ago
        That kind of thinking leads to “the only way we’ll get anything done is with a dictator” and it’s not like that is an unprecedented outcome for a country. Fix what’s broken, don’t use authoritarianism as a patch for dysfunction.
        triceratops 4y ago
        I don't understand why it's "authoritarianism" for elected representatives to say "we want to protect X, within the following parameters, and we delegate the job of making specific rules to this agency". You can vote out the legislator if you disagree with the parameters they agreed upon, and you can vote out the executive branch that appointed the leaders of the agency. We already complain all the time that legislators don't understand the stuff they pass laws about. Delegation is not authoritarianism. You haven't actually said how you'd "fix what's broken". Do you have any specific ideas?
rossdavidh 4y ago
So, I haven't worked in semiconductors since the mid-noughties, so keep that in mind. However, essentially every company in semiconductors in the 60's and 70's ended up with a Superfund site in Silicon Valley (back when the "Silicon" referred to actual chip manufacturing, not software). Fabs built in the 80's and 90's were much different in regards to how toxic chemicals were handled, and I believe have continued to improve. Some of this improvement came naturally, as the requirement for cleaner and cleaner manufacturing environment for the wafers themselves (to keep particulate contamination from lowering yield) meant that the chemicals were kept in enclosed systems, thus easier to keep from leaking out. Some of this came about because, from what I was told by "old timers", in the 60's and 70's part of the problem was that fabs were not thought of as being very dangerous. This sounds incredible now, but the risks people thought of from manufacturing then were those present in steel mills, coal mines, auto factories, etc. Big heavy things and molten steel and roofs that can collapse on you; physically obvious risks. It took some time to realize that semiconductor fabs were just as dangerous; no doubt longer than it should have, but the realization did arrive in time. I left the semiconductor industry because it was outsourcing, not because of concerns for my safety; in new fabs, there was a great emphasis on safety and the environmental impact (which no doubt raised costs relative to some of the other places that manufacturing shifted to).
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

lumost 4y ago

Manufacturing is generally pretty messy. But green tech has come a long way in identifying effective alternatives to toxic chemicals, as well as effective management and disposal techniques for what is toxic. Odds are good that re-shored manufacturing will be cleaner than older plants built in regions with lower environmental regulation.

sremani 4y ago
>> green tech has come a long way in identifying effective alternatives to toxic chemicals Enlighten us, how manufacturing 'silicone' has become less chemical intensive.
- throwaway743 4y ago
  FTFY: Silicon
  - sremani 4y ago
    between spelling nazis and reflexive downvoters .. who are entitled their respective actions.. what I am looking for is, how is the whole Quartz to Wafers process has become green and what kind of reduction and/or elimination of toxic materials has been achieved. A good proper justification of the claim from the claimant or supporters of that argument is useful.
    - acomjean 4y ago
      I don’t have exact details but I did work in an civil/environment consulting companies (we worked remediating the GE silicone waste site in Upstate NY .. ) which might be why people are senesitive to the spelling.[1] But generally those chemical engineers are pretty good at cleaning up the processes (it cheaper, also cheaper to ship manufacturing overseas…) The Resource Conservation and Recovery act https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_Conservation_and_Recovery_Act https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_Conservation_and_Re... And toxic substance control acts seemed to rules of note. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_Substances_Control_Act_of_1976 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_Substances_Control_Act... GE silicones [1]https://www.epa.gov/hwcorrectiveactionsites/hazardous-waste-cleanup-momentive-performance-materials-silicones-llc https://www.epa.gov/hwcorrectiveactionsites/hazardous-waste-...
    - adrian_b 4y ago
      In this case the spelling nazis had rightfully pointed to the correct spelling, because the wrong spelling is not a problem of style or preferences, but it causes a confusion between two different chemical substances, with very different properties and applications. "silicon" is the chemical element number 14, and this name, which is used in the English-speaking countries, was coined by someone who believed that it is a good idea for it to rhyme with "carbon" (actually a bad idea in my opinion) "silicone" is the generic name for a class of plastics, i.e. the polymers with a poly-siloxane structure. This name was coined by someone who believed that it is a good idea for it to rhyme with "acetone", because he erroneously believed that these polymers have a structure similar to ketones.
      - throwaway743 4y ago
        Thank you. Not trying to be a spelling nazi, just that those two tend to get mixed up quite a bit and can cause people confusion.
- karmicthreat 4y ago
  It's not less chemical intensive at all. Some aqueous processes have replaced more toxic ones. But dissolved copper and solvent waste makes up the majority of ever fabs waste stream. TSMC/Intel etc have made pretty big strides in zero landfill hazardous waste. It just gets recycled and used in other processes internally or by other companies. I don't know what the Chinese fabs do, so I have no idea if pump their waste out into the environment.
  - Kadin 4y ago
    > dissolved copper You would think that dissolved copper would have some recovery value, given the price of copper. I am reminded of the waste from silver halide photographic processing, which at one point was just dumped into rivers (an unfortunate amount went into the Great Lakes); when the price of silver increased, suddenly it became worthwhile to recover the silver rather than let it go down the literal drain.
iancmceachern 4y ago
From my understanding the chemicals haven't changed, and can't really be changed. As far as i understand we will always need these crazy bad chemicals to make chips. What has, hopefully, changed is we aren't allowing companies to store it in leaking underground tanks, etc. All these superfund sites aren't a result if business as usual, in each case there is some major, systemic, intentional oversight and frankly corruption. Source - I've worked some in that industry designing automation for asml, applied, etc. Not in the semiconductor industry but a good example of the kind of thing that results in a super fund site is Rocky Flats in Colorado. There is a now famous news broadcast where the representative from the department of energy is saying "there is no fire" and a big fire can be clearly seen behind them. They were machining plutonium and uranium nuclear bomb triggers on lathes in special glove boxes with particle capture and ventilation systems that were supposed to scrub the air before venting it to atmosphere. These systems weren't properly maintained and they got clogged up with radioactive dust and caught fire. It was later found that they were dumping radioactive dust into the air, and had hundreds of barrels of radioactive waste in steel barrels that were rusted through leaking into the ground for decades. It's the only time one federal agency (the FBI) raided a facility of another federal agency (DOE).
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- nickff 4y ago
  There have been a huge number of changes to the chemicals used in photolithography over time, specifically the photoresists.
  - iancmceachern 4y ago
    Yeah but lots of the super terrible stuff is in the surface prep and etching chemicals. All those crazy acids and bases that eat through everything, are highly toxic, and deadly in tiny quantities. https://www.prevor.com/en/chemical-risks-in-semiconductors-industry/ https://www.prevor.com/en/chemical-risks-in-semiconductors-i...
aaronbrethorst 4y ago
Meanwhile, the Supreme Court is about to gut the EPA's authority. Hope you're able to afford to move far away from plants that spew toxic chemicals! https://www.npr.org/2022/02/28/1082934438/supreme-court-to-hear-a-case-that-could-limit-the-epas-power-to-fight-climate-ch https://www.npr.org/2022/02/28/1082934438/supreme-court-to-h...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- colechristensen 4y ago
  Eh, I’m relatively in favor of limiting government agencies effectively making law up all by themselves. That is not the correct fix for a dysfunctional legislature.
  - paulmd 4y ago
    If you think Congress is dysfunctional now, wait until you require congress to individually specify safety limits for each compound, etc. You'll have congresspeople grandstanding about how restricting X chemical is killing hardworking small businesses in their state, etc. Which the court knows damn well will be the outcome - that's the goal. Keep anything from being done.
    - colechristensen 4y ago
      That kind of thinking leads to “the only way we’ll get anything done is with a dictator” and it’s not like that is an unprecedented outcome for a country. Fix what’s broken, don’t use authoritarianism as a patch for dysfunction.
      - triceratops 4y ago
        I don't understand why it's "authoritarianism" for elected representatives to say "we want to protect X, within the following parameters, and we delegate the job of making specific rules to this agency". You can vote out the legislator if you disagree with the parameters they agreed upon, and you can vote out the executive branch that appointed the leaders of the agency. We already complain all the time that legislators don't understand the stuff they pass laws about. Delegation is not authoritarianism. You haven't actually said how you'd "fix what's broken". Do you have any specific ideas?

rossdavidh 4y ago

So, I haven't worked in semiconductors since the mid-noughties, so keep that in mind. However, essentially every company in semiconductors in the 60's and 70's ended up with a Superfund site in Silicon Valley (back when the "Silicon" referred to actual chip manufacturing, not software). Fabs built in the 80's and 90's were much different in regards to how toxic chemicals were handled, and I believe have continued to improve. Some of this improvement came naturally, as the requirement for cleaner and cleaner manufacturing environment for the wafers themselves (to keep particulate contamination from lowering yield) meant that the chemicals were kept in enclosed systems, thus easier to keep from leaking out. Some of this came about because, from what I was told by "old timers", in the 60's and 70's part of the problem was that fabs were not thought of as being very dangerous. This sounds incredible now, but the risks people thought of from manufacturing then were those present in steel mills, coal mines, auto factories, etc. Big heavy things and molten steel and roofs that can collapse on you; physically obvious risks. It took some time to realize that semiconductor fabs were just as dangerous; no doubt longer than it should have, but the realization did arrive in time. I left the semiconductor industry because it was outsourcing, not because of concerns for my safety; in new fabs, there was a great emphasis on safety and the environmental impact (which no doubt raised costs relative to some of the other places that manufacturing shifted to).

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]