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It's sad, but not only because it means people are forced to buy new too often or because of the atrocious increasing e-waste associated with it. It's sad beca

It's sad, but not only because it means people are forced to buy new too often or because of the atrocious increasing e-waste associated with it. It's sad because folks will be less and less interested in fixing their things or simply opening their devices to understand how they work. It'll be general knowledge that it's "dangerous" to attempt a repair, and they're impossible to fix anyway. Attempting a repair is one of those sparks that nurture curiosity. It's the same spark that ultimately gave us Apple and many other great businesses. Why are we indirectly undermining ingenuity and inventiveness? Is it a false perception? Or maybe Hanlon's razor? On the other side, China has relatively affordable access to parts (low-level components included), schematics, extensive tooling and a growing hacker/maker culture. Sometimes, I feel we (occidentals) are going into reverse.

drdeadringer 4y ago
A large part of my tinkering hobbies include fixing, not just making -- often a mix of both. A lack of "right to repair" seems to kill some aspect of both if not one of these.
gruez 4y ago
>It's sad because folks will be less and less interested in fixing their things or simply opening their devices to understand how they work those days are long gone. you might be able to disassemble a turntable to figure out how it works, but disassembling a phone isn't going to tell you much when all the magic is in the silicon. all you get from disassembling it is a circuit board with random bumps.
- okr 4y ago
  Hm, these markets in Shenzhen seem to offer different stories. Youtube is full of those, you can replace/upgrade displays, memory, storage of your phone or even assemble your own. And in my country you have these little shops as well, where you pay a premium, but you dont have to buy a new phone. So, unless you really want to fix something very integrated, i am rather positive about the situation. And from my own history, mainboard was never really a problem, it was always something attached or plugged or solded onto it.
otagekki 4y ago
From what I can see, the right to repair suffers when "buying brand new" becomes significantly less expensive than "buying only the parts you need and spend some time fixing it". The former is always cheaper in developed economies, and the latter is often cheaper in third-world countries. Economic tradition like planned obsolescence is the single biggest culprit
- II2II 4y ago
  > The former is always cheaper in developed economies Is it? It seems cheaper in developed countries because the cost of labour is high, the cost of goods is low, and serviceability is rarely a consideration. Yet those factors have more to do with this point in time than the distinction of being a developed economy. If you went back in time 20 years: a cell phone with a dead battery would be user serviceable, regardless of that user's skill level; a computer with a dead hard drive would be user serviceable, to anyone who could handle a screwdriver. Fixing the socket on most devices would require a learned skill, soldering, but would be accessible to most people. The reason why I selected those examples is because they are easily diagnosed by the end user and don't require much technical sophistication to fix, so the cost of labour is cut out. These days, something as trivial as replacing a battery or hard drive requires a great deal more skill. Heck, in many cases it takes a great deal more skill to non-destructively open the enclosure simply to peek inside. None of that has anything to do with developed or developing economies. It has to do with how products are designed. (And if you were to go back yet another 20 years, the contrast is even more stark.)
  - makeitdouble 4y ago
    I completely agree with your point on skill level, and also think parent’s point is true at the same time. We had a washing machine die on us after 5 yers. After searching for repair manuals, we got the probable cause, and the part number of the controller board to replace (or test the chips and replace and resolder the parts that died, which goes to your point on skills). Except the price of the controller board was 90% of a new washing machine. And we’d still be taking the risk to either botch the repair, or have something else fail after we fix the controller. Same way, looking at the pixel 4a replacement screens, they retail around 170$, shipment not included, and you can buy a decent second hand pixel 4a at a bit less than 200$. The price difference doesn’t make it worth it to try to repair the screen, except to spare reinstall time perhaps. I expect most of our appliances to have that core part that just costs almost as much as the whole device to repair, though from a material mass/role perspective it doesn’t make any sense.
lasc4r 4y ago
I don't think it's a stretch to assume malice, billionaires are running the show and they aren't nice people that want to build a better world. If they want a population of poor, ignorant and unengaged worker drones they're doing great though.
- robertlagrant 4y ago
  It is a stretch to assume it. Billionaires generally do well in countries of hard-working, educated people. And they aren't running the show, although they might run a little bit of it.
  - lasc4r 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - jvanderbot 4y ago
      Believing that these agendas exist simply because they are evil people is reductionist. For example, my parents wholly support private schools because they believe that public education will strip students of their cultural identity and religious beliefs. They aren't evil. Devos and R's respond to those fears to get elected. The belief itself is probably based on the fact that college grads are extremely likely to have the "other party's" politics. And, that is true because (partly) the higher education system has become quite uniform and (apparently) seeks to squash dissenting opinions among the teaching ranks. How many professors are conservative or openly religious? I suspect those positions are viewed as defacto disqualifications by most on the left. I recommend everyone read Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt. He discusses with nuance and much persuasiveness the importance of returning political representation to higher education. I see it all very differently now.
      - idontpost 4y ago
      - cassepipe 4y ago
dehrmann 4y ago
> Attempting a repair is one of those sparks that nurture curiosity I appreciate the sentiment, but repairing an iPhone only gives you a very superficial understanding of how it works. It's about as technical as setting up a computer with a discrete monitor, webcam, UPS, case, speakers, etc.
- actually_a_dog 4y ago
  Indeed, it requires more physical dexterity than technical skill to repair an iPhone. The technical skill is really limited to being able to follow instructions, and basic things like ESD control.
- FastMonkey 4y ago
  I don't think he's saying that the repair will teach you the first principles of phone design. It's that by taking the step of actually opening the device, you significantly lower the hurdle to any next steps.
JKCalhoun 4y ago
It's possible, however sad, that there are societal stages where China is in a stage we saw in early Americana when farmers were often the "techies" that kept engines and equipment functioning. They had tools and learned from doing, repairing, making. But as we went from farm to factory and our wages got us a higher standard of living, we preferred to buy new things rather than keep old things working. If China follows the path of the U.S., Japan, Korea, they too will grow a middle class that no longer want to work for low wages in factories and will look for cheaper labor elsewhere in the world to meet the needs of their growing consumption. Just my armchair observations.
nonrandomstring 4y ago
Don't worry. Defeated this time, but it will keep coming back again, and again, and again until it's made law, no doubt about it. We're in a different era now, and e-waste is very topical [1]. A vote against "right to repair" is a clear vote against ecological common sense. California is unfortunately in a vulnerable position with respect to climate impact. Another season of wildfires and droughts will help the naysayers see some sense. [1] Here's an interview I did recently: https://www.thisishcd.com/episode/andy-farnell-perils-of-e-waste-and-benefit https://www.thisishcd.com/episode/andy-farnell-perils-of-e-w...
- twblalock 4y ago
  The average person has spent about zero seconds in their life thinking about e-waste. If you want to sell this bill, show voters how it will impact their wallets.
  - nonrandomstring 4y ago
    > If you want to sell this bill, show voters how it will impact their wallets. I hear you, but the sad thing is the financial impact isn't really that compelling. That's because waste is effectively subsidised. Carriers will be happy to push a new handset on customers every 18 months and just absorb that in the contract fees. Repair is expensive (time consuming) in comparison. And of course they have stacked the services and tariffs to make owning older gear less attractive. > The average person has spent about zero seconds in their life thinking about e-waste. I'm about to find our a lot more about that as some research students are looking at e-waste solutions and their first stage is interviewing people on their gadget recycling habits. I reckon the average person does think about it, but has no information or guidance at present. Hopefully we can change that.
jvanderbot 4y ago
It's not the American Way (tm) to have congress force this. Let The Markets Decide (c) Yet, now, we have Farmework laptop and OEM parts for Apple products. We're better in those ways, but worse in others, for sure. I only hope soon these concepts catch on. The image of small car repair shops working on teslas both scares and inspires me. Or the future of a handyman with a laptop to debug a washing machine both infurates me and gives me hope.
seanmcdirmid 4y ago
> On the other side, China has relatively affordable access to parts (low-level components included), schematics, extensive tooling and a growing hacker/maker culture. Having had repairs made in Beijing in hole in the wall E shops, no thank you. You have to watch the repairs being done like a hawk, or they will “fix” what wasn’t broken with some flaky parts they want to get rid of in addition to making your repair. The Apple Store is much more reliable in comparison, while being price competitive.
lttlrck 4y ago
RTR doesn't seem like the optimal solution to e-waste. If manufacturers were required by law to take care of e-waste they generate, to recycle everything they produce, rather to shifting that onto the consumer, perhaps they'd start building things to last in the first place. Also increase minimum warranty, 5 years for solid state devices?
thewileyone 4y ago
Collect all the e-waste and dump them at the doorstep of the State Senate in Sacremento.

drdeadringer 4y ago

A large part of my tinkering hobbies include fixing, not just making -- often a mix of both. A lack of "right to repair" seems to kill some aspect of both if not one of these.

gruez 4y ago

>It's sad because folks will be less and less interested in fixing their things or simply opening their devices to understand how they work those days are long gone. you might be able to disassemble a turntable to figure out how it works, but disassembling a phone isn't going to tell you much when all the magic is in the silicon. all you get from disassembling it is a circuit board with random bumps.

okr 4y ago
Hm, these markets in Shenzhen seem to offer different stories. Youtube is full of those, you can replace/upgrade displays, memory, storage of your phone or even assemble your own. And in my country you have these little shops as well, where you pay a premium, but you dont have to buy a new phone. So, unless you really want to fix something very integrated, i am rather positive about the situation. And from my own history, mainboard was never really a problem, it was always something attached or plugged or solded onto it.

otagekki 4y ago

From what I can see, the right to repair suffers when "buying brand new" becomes significantly less expensive than "buying only the parts you need and spend some time fixing it". The former is always cheaper in developed economies, and the latter is often cheaper in third-world countries. Economic tradition like planned obsolescence is the single biggest culprit

II2II 4y ago
> The former is always cheaper in developed economies Is it? It seems cheaper in developed countries because the cost of labour is high, the cost of goods is low, and serviceability is rarely a consideration. Yet those factors have more to do with this point in time than the distinction of being a developed economy. If you went back in time 20 years: a cell phone with a dead battery would be user serviceable, regardless of that user's skill level; a computer with a dead hard drive would be user serviceable, to anyone who could handle a screwdriver. Fixing the socket on most devices would require a learned skill, soldering, but would be accessible to most people. The reason why I selected those examples is because they are easily diagnosed by the end user and don't require much technical sophistication to fix, so the cost of labour is cut out. These days, something as trivial as replacing a battery or hard drive requires a great deal more skill. Heck, in many cases it takes a great deal more skill to non-destructively open the enclosure simply to peek inside. None of that has anything to do with developed or developing economies. It has to do with how products are designed. (And if you were to go back yet another 20 years, the contrast is even more stark.)
- makeitdouble 4y ago
  I completely agree with your point on skill level, and also think parent’s point is true at the same time. We had a washing machine die on us after 5 yers. After searching for repair manuals, we got the probable cause, and the part number of the controller board to replace (or test the chips and replace and resolder the parts that died, which goes to your point on skills). Except the price of the controller board was 90% of a new washing machine. And we’d still be taking the risk to either botch the repair, or have something else fail after we fix the controller. Same way, looking at the pixel 4a replacement screens, they retail around 170$, shipment not included, and you can buy a decent second hand pixel 4a at a bit less than 200$. The price difference doesn’t make it worth it to try to repair the screen, except to spare reinstall time perhaps. I expect most of our appliances to have that core part that just costs almost as much as the whole device to repair, though from a material mass/role perspective it doesn’t make any sense.

lasc4r 4y ago

I don't think it's a stretch to assume malice, billionaires are running the show and they aren't nice people that want to build a better world. If they want a population of poor, ignorant and unengaged worker drones they're doing great though.

robertlagrant 4y ago
It is a stretch to assume it. Billionaires generally do well in countries of hard-working, educated people. And they aren't running the show, although they might run a little bit of it.
- lasc4r 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - jvanderbot 4y ago
    Believing that these agendas exist simply because they are evil people is reductionist. For example, my parents wholly support private schools because they believe that public education will strip students of their cultural identity and religious beliefs. They aren't evil. Devos and R's respond to those fears to get elected. The belief itself is probably based on the fact that college grads are extremely likely to have the "other party's" politics. And, that is true because (partly) the higher education system has become quite uniform and (apparently) seeks to squash dissenting opinions among the teaching ranks. How many professors are conservative or openly religious? I suspect those positions are viewed as defacto disqualifications by most on the left. I recommend everyone read Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt. He discusses with nuance and much persuasiveness the importance of returning political representation to higher education. I see it all very differently now.
    - idontpost 4y ago
    - cassepipe 4y ago

dehrmann 4y ago

> Attempting a repair is one of those sparks that nurture curiosity I appreciate the sentiment, but repairing an iPhone only gives you a very superficial understanding of how it works. It's about as technical as setting up a computer with a discrete monitor, webcam, UPS, case, speakers, etc.

actually_a_dog 4y ago
Indeed, it requires more physical dexterity than technical skill to repair an iPhone. The technical skill is really limited to being able to follow instructions, and basic things like ESD control.
FastMonkey 4y ago
I don't think he's saying that the repair will teach you the first principles of phone design. It's that by taking the step of actually opening the device, you significantly lower the hurdle to any next steps.

JKCalhoun 4y ago

It's possible, however sad, that there are societal stages where China is in a stage we saw in early Americana when farmers were often the "techies" that kept engines and equipment functioning. They had tools and learned from doing, repairing, making. But as we went from farm to factory and our wages got us a higher standard of living, we preferred to buy new things rather than keep old things working. If China follows the path of the U.S., Japan, Korea, they too will grow a middle class that no longer want to work for low wages in factories and will look for cheaper labor elsewhere in the world to meet the needs of their growing consumption. Just my armchair observations.

nonrandomstring 4y ago

Don't worry. Defeated this time, but it will keep coming back again, and again, and again until it's made law, no doubt about it. We're in a different era now, and e-waste is very topical [1]. A vote against "right to repair" is a clear vote against ecological common sense. California is unfortunately in a vulnerable position with respect to climate impact. Another season of wildfires and droughts will help the naysayers see some sense. [1] Here's an interview I did recently: https://www.thisishcd.com/episode/andy-farnell-perils-of-e-waste-and-benefit https://www.thisishcd.com/episode/andy-farnell-perils-of-e-w...

twblalock 4y ago
The average person has spent about zero seconds in their life thinking about e-waste. If you want to sell this bill, show voters how it will impact their wallets.
- nonrandomstring 4y ago
  > If you want to sell this bill, show voters how it will impact their wallets. I hear you, but the sad thing is the financial impact isn't really that compelling. That's because waste is effectively subsidised. Carriers will be happy to push a new handset on customers every 18 months and just absorb that in the contract fees. Repair is expensive (time consuming) in comparison. And of course they have stacked the services and tariffs to make owning older gear less attractive. > The average person has spent about zero seconds in their life thinking about e-waste. I'm about to find our a lot more about that as some research students are looking at e-waste solutions and their first stage is interviewing people on their gadget recycling habits. I reckon the average person does think about it, but has no information or guidance at present. Hopefully we can change that.

jvanderbot 4y ago

It's not the American Way (tm) to have congress force this. Let The Markets Decide (c) Yet, now, we have Farmework laptop and OEM parts for Apple products. We're better in those ways, but worse in others, for sure. I only hope soon these concepts catch on. The image of small car repair shops working on teslas both scares and inspires me. Or the future of a handyman with a laptop to debug a washing machine both infurates me and gives me hope.

seanmcdirmid 4y ago

> On the other side, China has relatively affordable access to parts (low-level components included), schematics, extensive tooling and a growing hacker/maker culture. Having had repairs made in Beijing in hole in the wall E shops, no thank you. You have to watch the repairs being done like a hawk, or they will “fix” what wasn’t broken with some flaky parts they want to get rid of in addition to making your repair. The Apple Store is much more reliable in comparison, while being price competitive.

lttlrck 4y ago

RTR doesn't seem like the optimal solution to e-waste. If manufacturers were required by law to take care of e-waste they generate, to recycle everything they produce, rather to shifting that onto the consumer, perhaps they'd start building things to last in the first place. Also increase minimum warranty, 5 years for solid state devices?

thewileyone 4y ago

Collect all the e-waste and dump them at the doorstep of the State Senate in Sacremento.