3 ms·

It is more of a local feel, honestly. Many on twitter and around the schools I do go to seem convinced that if the rest of the nation had just been as good at

by taeric 4y ago

It is more of a local feel, honestly. Many on twitter and around the schools I do go to seem convinced that if the rest of the nation had just been as good at masking as we were, they would have not had it as bad. And that if we are diligent in the future, we wouldn't have as severe of outbreaks. I can't even really say they are wrong. I don't know. My weight would be more on our 90%ish percent vaccination rate, but I could see both having impact. Edit: I'm actually somewhat skeptical that ventilation will work as well as folks hope. Living in a place that largely does rely on outside air, we had just as large of outbreaks as anyone else. (That is, it is common to have open windows here. The kid's schools are even made to take advantage of that, if I understand it correctly.) Again, I am /not/ saying it is wrong. I just doubt it weighs as heavily as portrayed.

maxerickson 4y ago
What is your definition of "work"? Of course better ventilation won't outright stop diseases from spreading, the point is that it will reduce the spread with reasonable cost and little downside (like another commenter mentions, if the existing ventilation isn't keeping up with CO2 concentrations, there can be other benefits).
- taeric 4y ago
  From what I saw with our schools.... it didn't really cut the spread. Estimates are that the school had just as high of spread as elsewhere. And that is with near 100% vaccination of the kids in said school. I should note I'm not against trying. It seems a low hanging fruit to reach for. Just, evidence has shown that this particular disease goes for saturation fairly effectively.
  - jeromegv 4y ago
    Which evidence? You just quoted absolutely zero evidence beside your own personal anecdotes. It's an airborne disease. Better aeration definitely helps with airborne diseases, multiple studies prove it. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17257148/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17257148/ But of course, COVID spreads so easily that this can reach the limit (especially Omicron) and in an environment where kids will interact together in all kind of ways, but this would have definitely helped a lot more in the first few waves (pre-omicron) without needing to shut down schools entirely.
    - taeric 4y ago
      The personal evidence of my kid's schools. Three kids, three schools. So, yeah, small N. I'm confused on the particular study you picked. The main claim for positive evidence "supports the use of negatively pressurized isolation rooms for patients with these diseases in hospitals" but it goes on to basically acknowledge we still need more information in larger environments. Specifically, in the abstract, "However, the lack of sufficient data on the specification and quantification of the minimum ventilation requirements in hospitals, schools and offices in relation to the spread of airborne infectious diseases, suggest the existence of a knowledge gap." I'm all for more studies. And, again, I expect and hope we learn more.
    - nradov 4y ago
      There was never any need to shut down schools at all. Some countries such as Sweden left primary schools open throughout the pandemic (without mask mandates) and they did fine.
      - taeric 4y ago
        That does bring in an interesting case to look at to try and counter my point. If I am right that schools were one of the largest vectors of all of the other sicknesses that have been heavily suppressed in the past couple of years, than I would expect that in Sweden this suppression was not as pronounced. Any chance you know of where to look for that data?
dehrmann 4y ago
> if the rest of the nation had just been as good at masking as we were... I'm sure the CCP is saying that about lockdowns right now. Don't forget that fabric masks were found to be only marginally effective, and surgical masks are only somewhat effective. At this point, if you're in a mask, it should be at least N95 or don't bother. I'm still amused when I see people diligent about using masks, but not concerned enough to use an N95. My realization during this has been that it couldn't be stopped, it could only be delayed. As soon as you roll back restrictions, it will resume spreading until ~everyone has immunity. There will always be jurisdictions that don't care as much, so no amount of hard lockdowns work unless you can seal your border. There was never a window where we could eradicate it with vaccines because delta was already circulating by the time vaccine distribution had ramped up in April, 2021. There's a slight chance the omicron mRNA vaccines will have sterilizing immunity as good as the original vaccines and the original variant, but there's no reason to think a new variant won't evade the new vaccine. > And that if we are diligent in the future, we wouldn't have as severe of outbreaks. If you're willing to do continue restrictions indefinitely, sure.
- nradov 4y ago
  The mRNA vaccines never provided durable sterilizing immunity even against the original wild type virus variant. That wasn't even a goal, or a primary end point for the clinical trials.

by taeric 4y ago

maxerickson 4y ago

What is your definition of "work"? Of course better ventilation won't outright stop diseases from spreading, the point is that it will reduce the spread with reasonable cost and little downside (like another commenter mentions, if the existing ventilation isn't keeping up with CO2 concentrations, there can be other benefits).

taeric 4y ago
From what I saw with our schools.... it didn't really cut the spread. Estimates are that the school had just as high of spread as elsewhere. And that is with near 100% vaccination of the kids in said school. I should note I'm not against trying. It seems a low hanging fruit to reach for. Just, evidence has shown that this particular disease goes for saturation fairly effectively.
- jeromegv 4y ago
  Which evidence? You just quoted absolutely zero evidence beside your own personal anecdotes. It's an airborne disease. Better aeration definitely helps with airborne diseases, multiple studies prove it. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17257148/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17257148/ But of course, COVID spreads so easily that this can reach the limit (especially Omicron) and in an environment where kids will interact together in all kind of ways, but this would have definitely helped a lot more in the first few waves (pre-omicron) without needing to shut down schools entirely.
  - taeric 4y ago
    The personal evidence of my kid's schools. Three kids, three schools. So, yeah, small N. I'm confused on the particular study you picked. The main claim for positive evidence "supports the use of negatively pressurized isolation rooms for patients with these diseases in hospitals" but it goes on to basically acknowledge we still need more information in larger environments. Specifically, in the abstract, "However, the lack of sufficient data on the specification and quantification of the minimum ventilation requirements in hospitals, schools and offices in relation to the spread of airborne infectious diseases, suggest the existence of a knowledge gap." I'm all for more studies. And, again, I expect and hope we learn more.
  - nradov 4y ago
    There was never any need to shut down schools at all. Some countries such as Sweden left primary schools open throughout the pandemic (without mask mandates) and they did fine.
    - taeric 4y ago
      That does bring in an interesting case to look at to try and counter my point. If I am right that schools were one of the largest vectors of all of the other sicknesses that have been heavily suppressed in the past couple of years, than I would expect that in Sweden this suppression was not as pronounced. Any chance you know of where to look for that data?

dehrmann 4y ago

> if the rest of the nation had just been as good at masking as we were... I'm sure the CCP is saying that about lockdowns right now. Don't forget that fabric masks were found to be only marginally effective, and surgical masks are only somewhat effective. At this point, if you're in a mask, it should be at least N95 or don't bother. I'm still amused when I see people diligent about using masks, but not concerned enough to use an N95. My realization during this has been that it couldn't be stopped, it could only be delayed. As soon as you roll back restrictions, it will resume spreading until ~everyone has immunity. There will always be jurisdictions that don't care as much, so no amount of hard lockdowns work unless you can seal your border. There was never a window where we could eradicate it with vaccines because delta was already circulating by the time vaccine distribution had ramped up in April, 2021. There's a slight chance the omicron mRNA vaccines will have sterilizing immunity as good as the original vaccines and the original variant, but there's no reason to think a new variant won't evade the new vaccine. > And that if we are diligent in the future, we wouldn't have as severe of outbreaks. If you're willing to do continue restrictions indefinitely, sure.

nradov 4y ago
The mRNA vaccines never provided durable sterilizing immunity even against the original wild type virus variant. That wasn't even a goal, or a primary end point for the clinical trials.