5 ms·

Am I the only one who looks at these projects with a combination of awe and apathy and jealousy? I do software, not hardware, and I like knowing how things work

Am I the only one who looks at these projects with a combination of awe and apathy and jealousy? I do software, not hardware, and I like knowing how things work. When an expert in a different field glances at a PCB and identifies components, their purpose, by sight, and then rummages around a loose parts bin to go deeper, it dawns on me: this is someone's life. The same way I've been swimming in (application) software, and could do similar things with a repo, or even running processes, this person can do in hardware, and it's a set of interlocking skills that took an entire life to grow.

kosma 4y ago
You just described my joy of doing hardware better than I would have been able to describe it myself. Thank you.
cybrox 4y ago
There's something very enjoyable about seeing knowledgable people dissecting things. As someone who can do - and has done - both hardware and software work, I also understand why people like to share these experiences. Every step in reverse engineering is a huge success and a nice boost of you ego, confirming that your accumulated skillset is powerful.
xattt 4y ago
Consider this a metaphor for any field expert. A chef looks in a fridge and sees a combination of ingredients that will make a tasty dish. A teacher looks at a struggling student and sees what strategies will help them succeed. A lawyer looks at a case and sees specific circumstances that help come to an ideal solution.
layer8 4y ago
I believe you could get to that particular level (identifying and reprogramming an I2C EEPROM) pretty quickly as a software engineer. Just get started!
- incanus77 4y ago
  I’m here to say that you can. I spent many years in pure, high level software, but about five years ago, got an interest in electronics. Started with a learning kit, but just kept at it and now a project like this, while impressive, is 100% within my understanding and, while not underestimating or discrediting the amount of work and ingenuity put in by the author, my abilities. You can do it! Look to places like SparkFun and Adafruit to get started.
NavinF 4y ago
> jealousy For what it’s worth, you could do a similar hack with 5 minutes of work and zero background knowledge if you’re willing to take a leap of faith: 1. Break open a used detergent cartridge and notice that there’s only one chip inside 2. Google the number on the chip and click the first link to figure out that it’s a “I2C Serial EEPROM”. Clearly it’s some sort of memory chip since they advertise its capacity 3. Without knowing exactly what an “I2C eeprom” is, google something like “i2c eeprom rewriter” and buy the first result: a $10 BIOS programmer for desktop PCs (which use the same 24 series eeproms) 4. Clip the programmer onto the memory chip and plug it into your PC’s USB port. The author went a lot further because that’s what he wanted to do, but you don’t have to. He figured out the USB connector’s pinout, but your programmer comes with a clip that attaches directly onto the chip. He reverse-engineered the data on the chip and built a custom programmer, but you could just click the read button in your programmer’s software to back up the data from a brand new cartridge and then write that data to used cartridges.
- throw_a_grenade 4y ago
  For those willing to take leap of faith: be careful about electronic element orientation aka polarity: on each element (where it makes difference) pin number 1 is marked in some way (a dot, cut corner, red wire, coloured band, ...), though rarely there is physical restraint preventing you from putting the clip the other way around. Doing this will fry the eeprom and/or rewriter (on this particular chip it switches power rails and this will cause excessive current flow), but most importantly, it might cause frustration worse than failed compilation for syntax error. Like missing semicolons, this will eventually happen to you. Just be prepared for it.
- javajosh 4y ago
  So, I don't want to sound ungrateful But the what you say is true for ALL the roads someone else has traveled. It's true for electronics and learning the french horn and bread-making. It's true for making jewellery, learning to sew, to cook thai cuisine, and grinding your own optics. That's why the "apathy" in the list of emotions. I want to marvel at others who dwell in interesting spaces, without feeling the need to join them. I know I could, and it's tempting. But I already have a long list of interests, historical and current. Sailing, billiards, photography, piano, writing. I also know how to write in cursive, drive a stick, and change a diaper with one hand. I get that more is available; I want it, and I don't want it.
GuB-42 4y ago
I think you have the right mindset, you don't need that much to start hacking digital electronics. Analog is harder for programmers because there is less skill overlap but simple hacks can't be that hard if you are willing to do it. What always frustrated me with electronics was material considerations. You need all sorts of stuff, like a good soldering iron, oscilloscope, hot air station, magnifying glass/microscope, all sorts of wires, basic components, lab power supply, multimeters, probes, prototyping boards, etc... For programming, you just need a computer, but for electronics, you also need one. It is not just expensive, in fact it is not that expensive for a full startup kit, thank you China. But what you also need is space, if you don't have a dedicated room for your workshop (i.e. not your bedroom or living room) it is going to be really annoying real quick. You need a bench to put all your stuff, and also enough space to store all the crap you will either repair or cannibalize part from. It also makes moving more difficult. While it is not an absolute necessity, and there are things like hackerspaces, but there is a barrier that is not present when you are just working with computers.
- tyingq 4y ago
  >It is not just expensive, in fact it is not that expensive for a full startup kit, thank you China. It is amazing how much more accessible it is these days. An oscilloscope or signal generator (even a used one) in the 80's and 90's, was a lot of money. There's also a lot of multi-purpose test equipment now.
- MandieD 4y ago
  Yeah, I've learned that my new amateur radio hobby is not very compatible with a newly-climbing, curious little human. Thank goodness I have my own little office so I don't have to unplug and carefully pack EVERYTHING every time, but forget anything involving soldering - there's just not enough room for even a small workbench anywhere I can close the door to the little guy who loves anything shiny or with a cable.
kortex 4y ago
I was in the same spot when I met this brilliant hardware hacker at this hackerspace who had no formal EE degree but could design circuits in his sleep. "How do you do it?" "I read data sheets and a lot of wikipedia". I already spend tons of time on wiki, so I started reading data sheets. And he was absolutely right, datasheets for components are often chock full of information on how to use them, often with recipe books for circuits that use them. It's kinda bland and tedious but highly informative. I think there is a bit more that goes into that (in particular a willingness to fry stuff, that's unavoidable in hardware, and MOUNTAINS of patience), but like software, it's pretty easy in today's day and age to teach yourself hardware stuff.
- mynameismon 4y ago
  > datasheets for components are often chock full of information on how to use them, often with recipe books for circuits that use them. Curious, I looked into the datasheet linked in the post[0]. While I get what you mean by "chock full of information", I can't make the head or tail of it. Where do I get started? (genuinely)
  - flaviut 4y ago
    I'm not sure what your question is. When you don't understand a thing, you can google for it. Like it says it uses a Schmitt trigger for noise protection. How does that work? Wikipedia explains: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmitt_trigger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmitt_trigger If you have a specific goal for the chip, look up the words that seem to be related to that goal. Once you do that a bunch, you get better at figuring out which words matter.
  - iancmceachern 4y ago
    There is usually an example circuit in the datasheet. I start there. Many ics now also sell that example circuit on a pcb you can buy from the same supplier you buy your ics from. Then to make your own custom thing you just start with that example circuit, change it or add to it as needed for your specific application, and then you can physically make those same modifications or additions to the example circuit board you bought and test your design before ordering custom boards. It's basically like tracing an outline of a drawing with tracing paper and then filling it in with color. You trace the example design, add your own color.
blibble 4y ago
pretty much all of that should be part of any reasonable CS degree was certainly part of mine, and mine was more theoretical than most (I certainly remember peering through datasheets of various obscure TI chips during afternoon labs)
- rrss 4y ago
  Many reasonable CS degrees have no electronics or hardware in the curriculum.
gaze 4y ago
you should just try it. It’s not as bad as it looks. You’re reading an article in 5 minutes that contains probably a week’s worth of work or something.
ggm 4y ago
trainee/failed grammar nazi here: you mean Envy. Jealousy is what the lord God feels, he's a jealous god: thou shalt have no gods other than him. Envy is "gee, I wish I was as god-mode as that" -which I think is more what you meant. Nobody else cares, your meaning was clear.

kosma 4y ago

You just described my joy of doing hardware better than I would have been able to describe it myself. Thank you.

cybrox 4y ago

There's something very enjoyable about seeing knowledgable people dissecting things. As someone who can do - and has done - both hardware and software work, I also understand why people like to share these experiences. Every step in reverse engineering is a huge success and a nice boost of you ego, confirming that your accumulated skillset is powerful.

xattt 4y ago

Consider this a metaphor for any field expert. A chef looks in a fridge and sees a combination of ingredients that will make a tasty dish. A teacher looks at a struggling student and sees what strategies will help them succeed. A lawyer looks at a case and sees specific circumstances that help come to an ideal solution.

layer8 4y ago

I believe you could get to that particular level (identifying and reprogramming an I2C EEPROM) pretty quickly as a software engineer. Just get started!

incanus77 4y ago
I’m here to say that you can. I spent many years in pure, high level software, but about five years ago, got an interest in electronics. Started with a learning kit, but just kept at it and now a project like this, while impressive, is 100% within my understanding and, while not underestimating or discrediting the amount of work and ingenuity put in by the author, my abilities. You can do it! Look to places like SparkFun and Adafruit to get started.

NavinF 4y ago

> jealousy For what it’s worth, you could do a similar hack with 5 minutes of work and zero background knowledge if you’re willing to take a leap of faith: 1. Break open a used detergent cartridge and notice that there’s only one chip inside 2. Google the number on the chip and click the first link to figure out that it’s a “I2C Serial EEPROM”. Clearly it’s some sort of memory chip since they advertise its capacity 3. Without knowing exactly what an “I2C eeprom” is, google something like “i2c eeprom rewriter” and buy the first result: a $10 BIOS programmer for desktop PCs (which use the same 24 series eeproms) 4. Clip the programmer onto the memory chip and plug it into your PC’s USB port. The author went a lot further because that’s what he wanted to do, but you don’t have to. He figured out the USB connector’s pinout, but your programmer comes with a clip that attaches directly onto the chip. He reverse-engineered the data on the chip and built a custom programmer, but you could just click the read button in your programmer’s software to back up the data from a brand new cartridge and then write that data to used cartridges.

throw_a_grenade 4y ago
For those willing to take leap of faith: be careful about electronic element orientation aka polarity: on each element (where it makes difference) pin number 1 is marked in some way (a dot, cut corner, red wire, coloured band, ...), though rarely there is physical restraint preventing you from putting the clip the other way around. Doing this will fry the eeprom and/or rewriter (on this particular chip it switches power rails and this will cause excessive current flow), but most importantly, it might cause frustration worse than failed compilation for syntax error. Like missing semicolons, this will eventually happen to you. Just be prepared for it.
javajosh 4y ago
So, I don't want to sound ungrateful But the what you say is true for ALL the roads someone else has traveled. It's true for electronics and learning the french horn and bread-making. It's true for making jewellery, learning to sew, to cook thai cuisine, and grinding your own optics. That's why the "apathy" in the list of emotions. I want to marvel at others who dwell in interesting spaces, without feeling the need to join them. I know I could, and it's tempting. But I already have a long list of interests, historical and current. Sailing, billiards, photography, piano, writing. I also know how to write in cursive, drive a stick, and change a diaper with one hand. I get that more is available; I want it, and I don't want it.

GuB-42 4y ago

I think you have the right mindset, you don't need that much to start hacking digital electronics. Analog is harder for programmers because there is less skill overlap but simple hacks can't be that hard if you are willing to do it. What always frustrated me with electronics was material considerations. You need all sorts of stuff, like a good soldering iron, oscilloscope, hot air station, magnifying glass/microscope, all sorts of wires, basic components, lab power supply, multimeters, probes, prototyping boards, etc... For programming, you just need a computer, but for electronics, you also need one. It is not just expensive, in fact it is not that expensive for a full startup kit, thank you China. But what you also need is space, if you don't have a dedicated room for your workshop (i.e. not your bedroom or living room) it is going to be really annoying real quick. You need a bench to put all your stuff, and also enough space to store all the crap you will either repair or cannibalize part from. It also makes moving more difficult. While it is not an absolute necessity, and there are things like hackerspaces, but there is a barrier that is not present when you are just working with computers.

tyingq 4y ago
>It is not just expensive, in fact it is not that expensive for a full startup kit, thank you China. It is amazing how much more accessible it is these days. An oscilloscope or signal generator (even a used one) in the 80's and 90's, was a lot of money. There's also a lot of multi-purpose test equipment now.
MandieD 4y ago
Yeah, I've learned that my new amateur radio hobby is not very compatible with a newly-climbing, curious little human. Thank goodness I have my own little office so I don't have to unplug and carefully pack EVERYTHING every time, but forget anything involving soldering - there's just not enough room for even a small workbench anywhere I can close the door to the little guy who loves anything shiny or with a cable.

kortex 4y ago

I was in the same spot when I met this brilliant hardware hacker at this hackerspace who had no formal EE degree but could design circuits in his sleep. "How do you do it?" "I read data sheets and a lot of wikipedia". I already spend tons of time on wiki, so I started reading data sheets. And he was absolutely right, datasheets for components are often chock full of information on how to use them, often with recipe books for circuits that use them. It's kinda bland and tedious but highly informative. I think there is a bit more that goes into that (in particular a willingness to fry stuff, that's unavoidable in hardware, and MOUNTAINS of patience), but like software, it's pretty easy in today's day and age to teach yourself hardware stuff.

mynameismon 4y ago
> datasheets for components are often chock full of information on how to use them, often with recipe books for circuits that use them. Curious, I looked into the datasheet linked in the post[0]. While I get what you mean by "chock full of information", I can't make the head or tail of it. Where do I get started? (genuinely)
- flaviut 4y ago
  I'm not sure what your question is. When you don't understand a thing, you can google for it. Like it says it uses a Schmitt trigger for noise protection. How does that work? Wikipedia explains: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmitt_trigger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmitt_trigger If you have a specific goal for the chip, look up the words that seem to be related to that goal. Once you do that a bunch, you get better at figuring out which words matter.
- iancmceachern 4y ago
  There is usually an example circuit in the datasheet. I start there. Many ics now also sell that example circuit on a pcb you can buy from the same supplier you buy your ics from. Then to make your own custom thing you just start with that example circuit, change it or add to it as needed for your specific application, and then you can physically make those same modifications or additions to the example circuit board you bought and test your design before ordering custom boards. It's basically like tracing an outline of a drawing with tracing paper and then filling it in with color. You trace the example design, add your own color.

blibble 4y ago

pretty much all of that should be part of any reasonable CS degree was certainly part of mine, and mine was more theoretical than most (I certainly remember peering through datasheets of various obscure TI chips during afternoon labs)

rrss 4y ago
Many reasonable CS degrees have no electronics or hardware in the curriculum.

gaze 4y ago

you should just try it. It’s not as bad as it looks. You’re reading an article in 5 minutes that contains probably a week’s worth of work or something.

ggm 4y ago

trainee/failed grammar nazi here: you mean Envy. Jealousy is what the lord God feels, he's a jealous god: thou shalt have no gods other than him. Envy is "gee, I wish I was as god-mode as that" -which I think is more what you meant. Nobody else cares, your meaning was clear.