4 ms·

I like the concept of async work but I’m also scared of how transactional that would make work. Most companies that preach async now have a very strong, “friend

by axg11 4y ago

I like the concept of async work but I’m also scared of how transactional that would make work. Most companies that preach async now have a very strong, “friendly” culture. If async catches on more widely I’m worried it would be the final push to make software development purely transactional and performance/pay would be directly tied to metrics. I enjoy the human component of work. I don’t like _all_ of my coworkers, but it’s still a net positive to interact with them. When I think about the ideal software job, a lot of the aspects of day-to-day work informally become async. Especially as you work with people for longer periods of time and gain mutual trust, a good workplace allows both managers and individual contributors to structure their own time.

ameister14 4y ago
>If async catches on more widely I’m worried it would be the final push to make software development purely transactional and performance/pay would be directly tied to metrics. Here's the thing; that (a completely transactional relationship between all elements of a team) doesn't actually work well to make good products. Sure, a bunch of companies would probably do it as it's easier to measure worker production that way, but async also requires a different type of management and admin work that has to change as well. A lot of current managers won't be able to hack it, frankly, without the measured 'butts in seats' element. Personally, I think it should be coupled with an investment in HR to get more qualified and motivated people working on the problem. It's a different concept for business and teams, that's all. Applying the older paradigm is going to be a problem and while a lot of companies will do just that they will also be less successful overall.
- arinlen 4y ago
  > Here's the thing; that doesn't actually work well to make good products. Sure, a bunch of companies (...) Respectfully,you know nothing about what you're talking about. Async work is already the norm for some companies, even prior to moves to full remote work. I personally know teams in renowned companies which before COVID already split teams working on products between the US, Europe, and India. They stuck with full async because it worked, and worked better than alternatives. With COVID, the whole world went full remote due to necessity, and I personally know teams whose output improved significantly with the move to full remote to the point where they stuck in remote by default. > Personally, I think it should be coupled with an investment in HR to get more qualified and motivated people working on the problem. I disagree. What I'm seeing is a lazy, conservative mindset of people who feel scared and threatened by a reform shaking up the very core of a system they feel benefits them personally.
  - ameister14 4y ago
    respectfully, you completely misread my comment. "make software development purely transactional and performance/pay would be directly tied to metrics." That's what doesn't work to make good products. A focus on individual metrics to the exclusion of team dynamics doesn't work that well. "What I'm seeing is a lazy, conservative mindset of people who feel scared and threatened by a reform shaking up the very core of a system they feel benefits them personally. " I mean that's kinda what I was talking about with a bunch of managers not being able to hack it. I don't think you get what I was saying; if HR doesn't change, you get the same people trying the same model and applying it to a new framework, which will fail. You need a better focus on the people individually and on the systems you build for them to work well together and that requires a "people" or "HR" department that actually functions well and has investment.
    - chillwaves 4y ago
      I don't feel like your arguments support your assertion. There are multiple ways to run a company/do business/ship products.
      - ameister14 4y ago
        Sure, there are multiple ways to run a company, but people aren't machines. A pure focus on measurables to the exclusion of soft motivation and skill has proven to be less effective. I'm honestly surprised you believe otherwise. This has borne out time and again from artisan shops to factories to software.
spookthesunset 4y ago
I am beginning to think that many remote developers will eventually become 1099 contractors who can pick up random gigs. Because let’s be honest, the reason most of these folks are doing this is because they don’t give a crap about the specific company or anything like that. They just want to build cool shit that other people spec out. As long as the pay is competitive one day they might be building a healthcare mobile app, another day an online car dealership portal. Honestly, I think that is where it’s headed. I know if I went back to being a dev who did 95% of my shit remote, I would much rather be a 1099 “arms length” contractor then I’d be W2 “real employee”. If you are going for the flexibility that remote brings, you might as well make it fully flexible and just be a contract developer… after all you already decided you didn’t give a shit about company politics or culture… you just want to write code! So just become a contractor!
- Deritiod 4y ago
  I disagree. Y team sits in Montreal. Not my choice but I'm fine with it I'm not less dedicated to my current company than before COVID.
- zdragnar 4y ago
  I've been working remotely for years, and for companies that literally didn't have offices to work from. Everyone was 100% remote, and I can assure you that didn't have any impact whatsoever on people's passion for their work or the company they worked for. I've seen people in an office not give a damn (literally doing a phone interview for a position at a different company at his desk), and totally remote people probably care a little too much, and everything in-between.
- mmarq 4y ago
  Is one supposed to be anything but a mercenary? Should I believe in the product for the sake of making the CEO a billionaire? People should care iff they are given meaningful equity, as in life changing, otherwise they should be professional, like accountants and lawyers, but jump ship whenever it’s convenient.
  - lupire 4y ago
dixie_land 4y ago
I like most of my coworkers and are friends of some offline. But I see work transactional by definition.
- lupire 4y ago
  What about brainstorming and problem solving?

by axg11 4y ago

ameister14 4y ago

>If async catches on more widely I’m worried it would be the final push to make software development purely transactional and performance/pay would be directly tied to metrics. Here's the thing; that (a completely transactional relationship between all elements of a team) doesn't actually work well to make good products. Sure, a bunch of companies would probably do it as it's easier to measure worker production that way, but async also requires a different type of management and admin work that has to change as well. A lot of current managers won't be able to hack it, frankly, without the measured 'butts in seats' element. Personally, I think it should be coupled with an investment in HR to get more qualified and motivated people working on the problem. It's a different concept for business and teams, that's all. Applying the older paradigm is going to be a problem and while a lot of companies will do just that they will also be less successful overall.

arinlen 4y ago
> Here's the thing; that doesn't actually work well to make good products. Sure, a bunch of companies (...) Respectfully,you know nothing about what you're talking about. Async work is already the norm for some companies, even prior to moves to full remote work. I personally know teams in renowned companies which before COVID already split teams working on products between the US, Europe, and India. They stuck with full async because it worked, and worked better than alternatives. With COVID, the whole world went full remote due to necessity, and I personally know teams whose output improved significantly with the move to full remote to the point where they stuck in remote by default. > Personally, I think it should be coupled with an investment in HR to get more qualified and motivated people working on the problem. I disagree. What I'm seeing is a lazy, conservative mindset of people who feel scared and threatened by a reform shaking up the very core of a system they feel benefits them personally.
- ameister14 4y ago
  respectfully, you completely misread my comment. "make software development purely transactional and performance/pay would be directly tied to metrics." That's what doesn't work to make good products. A focus on individual metrics to the exclusion of team dynamics doesn't work that well. "What I'm seeing is a lazy, conservative mindset of people who feel scared and threatened by a reform shaking up the very core of a system they feel benefits them personally. " I mean that's kinda what I was talking about with a bunch of managers not being able to hack it. I don't think you get what I was saying; if HR doesn't change, you get the same people trying the same model and applying it to a new framework, which will fail. You need a better focus on the people individually and on the systems you build for them to work well together and that requires a "people" or "HR" department that actually functions well and has investment.
  - chillwaves 4y ago
    I don't feel like your arguments support your assertion. There are multiple ways to run a company/do business/ship products.
    - ameister14 4y ago
      Sure, there are multiple ways to run a company, but people aren't machines. A pure focus on measurables to the exclusion of soft motivation and skill has proven to be less effective. I'm honestly surprised you believe otherwise. This has borne out time and again from artisan shops to factories to software.

spookthesunset 4y ago

I am beginning to think that many remote developers will eventually become 1099 contractors who can pick up random gigs. Because let’s be honest, the reason most of these folks are doing this is because they don’t give a crap about the specific company or anything like that. They just want to build cool shit that other people spec out. As long as the pay is competitive one day they might be building a healthcare mobile app, another day an online car dealership portal. Honestly, I think that is where it’s headed. I know if I went back to being a dev who did 95% of my shit remote, I would much rather be a 1099 “arms length” contractor then I’d be W2 “real employee”. If you are going for the flexibility that remote brings, you might as well make it fully flexible and just be a contract developer… after all you already decided you didn’t give a shit about company politics or culture… you just want to write code! So just become a contractor!

Deritiod 4y ago
I disagree. Y team sits in Montreal. Not my choice but I'm fine with it I'm not less dedicated to my current company than before COVID.
zdragnar 4y ago
I've been working remotely for years, and for companies that literally didn't have offices to work from. Everyone was 100% remote, and I can assure you that didn't have any impact whatsoever on people's passion for their work or the company they worked for. I've seen people in an office not give a damn (literally doing a phone interview for a position at a different company at his desk), and totally remote people probably care a little too much, and everything in-between.
mmarq 4y ago
Is one supposed to be anything but a mercenary? Should I believe in the product for the sake of making the CEO a billionaire? People should care iff they are given meaningful equity, as in life changing, otherwise they should be professional, like accountants and lawyers, but jump ship whenever it’s convenient.
- lupire 4y ago

dixie_land 4y ago

I like most of my coworkers and are friends of some offline. But I see work transactional by definition.

lupire 4y ago
What about brainstorming and problem solving?