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> You are given currency coupons in exchange for your work, and then more of those coupons are just forged than correspond to actual work having been done, ther

> You are given currency coupons in exchange for your work, and then more of those coupons are just forged than correspond to actual work having been done, thereby defrauding you out of the value of your work, also commonly called theft of service. All currency is made up. Even gold, or bitcoin, or giant rocks: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rai_stones https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rai_stones The only thing that has "inherent" value to humans is air/oxygen, shelter, water, and food. Everything else is psychological projection for convenience. See The Power of Gold: The History of an Obsession by Bernstein: * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/249245.The_Power_of_Gold https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/249245.The_Power_of_Gold * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_L._Bernstein https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_L._Bernstein And Money: The True Story of a Made-Up Thing by Goldstein: * https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/50358103-money https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/50358103-money * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Goldstein https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Goldstein

Turing_Machine 4y ago
> All currency is made up. Even gold, or bitcoin, or giant rocks Yes, but gold, bitcoin, and giant rocks can't be inflated at will, which is what the OP was complaining about. Simulated pieces of green paper can. Even with the formerly-used real pieces of green paper, there's a physical limit to how fast printing presses can run. With simulated pieces of green paper, you can just type some numbers into a computer and suddenly there are twice as many of them as there were before. Or a hundred times as many. Or a trillion times as many...
- orwin 4y ago
  Okay, but creating money at will is not a bug, its a feature. I know there is this myth of the "no crisis ever during the gold standard era", but this is false. We had a crisis every ten years or so, sometime way bigger than the 2008 crisis despite the economies being less interconnected. And those crisis sometimes were entirely disconnected from production issues, unlike 2008 that is clearly linked with the conventional oil/gas peak. Because having liquidity that allow easy trading of ressources actually help recover faster and avoid made up crisis like the 1893 one in the US.
  - stevesearer 4y ago
    From my limited knowledge, I don’t believe hard money advocates would say there are never any crises, but instead that they are shorter lived and not as large.
    - throw0101a 4y ago
      > […] but instead that they are shorter lived and not as large. Which of course does not match the historical record: * https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/08/why-the-gold-standard-is-the-worlds-worst-economic-idea-in-2-charts/261552/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/08/why-the... * https://archive.ph/FWKcL https://archive.ph/FWKcL
      - Grim-444 4y ago
        The article presents two graphs of arguably manipulated/unreliable CPI rates, and that's somehow being using as evidence for whether crises are larger or smaller? The article from the beginning uses obviously incredibly biased language throughout, it's a pure opinion hit piece; the author isn't even attempting to present an impartial view on the topic. It always amuses me how strongly people come out in opposition to the idea of the gold standard, when it demonstrably seemed to work for America, it powered the country from the time it was a collection of colonies to the time it had men driving buggies around on the moon. The country was on the gold standard for hundreds of years. Coming off the gold standard is the experiment, is the outlier. The gold standard obviously worked well enough for that vast majority of the country's history, yet it's somehow regarded by certain people as an obviously horrible idea which is gross, repugnant, "a barbarous relic that belongs in the dustbin of history". It just doesn't add up. If it's such an insanely horrible idea, how did it work so well for so long?
        throw0101a 4y ago
        > The article presents two graphs of arguably manipulated/unreliable CPI rates […] And you can tell this because… ? > […] the author isn't even attempting to present an impartial view on the topic. Neither would someone who was arguing the Earth was round. > It always amuses me how strongly people come out in opposition to the idea of the gold standard, when it demonstrably seemed to work for America, it powered the country from the time it was a collection of colonies to the time it had men driving buggies around on the moon. No, it caused some huge boom and bust cycles, deflationary periods, and much suffering. It certainly made the Great Depression worse: * https://www.nber.org/papers/w3488 https://www.nber.org/papers/w3488 Gold-as-currency was useful when we didn't know better, but we've moved on. See The Power of Gold: The History of an Obsession by Bernstein for a good history: * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/249245.The_Power_of_Gold https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/249245.The_Power_of_Gold
- throw0101a 4y ago
  > Yes, but gold, bitcoin, and giant rocks can't be inflated at will, which is what the OP was complaining about. Governments have been fiddling with metal-based currencies going back to Ancient Rome and Han China: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seigniorage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seigniorage Never mind what the general public has done as well: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methods_of_coin_debasement#Coin_clipping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methods_of_coin_debasement#Coi... See Bernstein. > With simulated pieces of green paper, you can just type some numbers into a computer and suddenly there are twice as many of them as there were before. Or a hundred times as many. Or a trillion times as many... Yup, and that's how private banks create loans and mortgages: * https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/quarterly-bulletin/2014/q1/money-creation-in-the-modern-economy https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/quarterly-bulletin/2014/q1/m... Central banks do not create the money that the public uses in the economy, and the only money that the government creates is coins and bills via the their mints. Also, have you ever asked what happens when there isn't enough money? * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Slump_(15th_century) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Slump_(15th_century) * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Bullion_Famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Bullion_Famine * http://www.nber.org/chapters/c11482 http://www.nber.org/chapters/c11482 And it's not like 'hard money' brings any more stability: * https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/08/why-the-gold-standard-is-the-worlds-worst-economic-idea-in-2-charts/261552/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/08/why-the... * https://archive.ph/FWKcL https://archive.ph/FWKcL
  - Turing_Machine 4y ago
    "Fiddling with" is not the same as "can create arbitrarily without limit". You're still not addressing the OP's actual complaint.
    - kqr 4y ago
      Governments can (and has!) "created arbitrarily without limit" metal currencies too. Given their monopoly on violence, they can just say "this coin now pays for ten pigs, not one, as you thought before". (Of course, they'd also decrease required tax payments correspondingly to maintain stable inflation.)
achenatx 4y ago
>>The only thing that has "inherent" value to humans is air/oxygen, shelter, water, and food. Everything else is psychological projection for convenience. This isnt really true. If you put someone in solitary confinement for long enough they will go insane. People commit suicide for a variety of mental health reasons. Mental health is absolutely as important as physical health and it isnt obvious where to draw the line for required vs. convenient. There is also health/medicine/medical care/sanitation. There are also secondary requirements that enable the production capacity for the above stated requirements.

Turing_Machine 4y ago

> All currency is made up. Even gold, or bitcoin, or giant rocks Yes, but gold, bitcoin, and giant rocks can't be inflated at will, which is what the OP was complaining about. Simulated pieces of green paper can. Even with the formerly-used real pieces of green paper, there's a physical limit to how fast printing presses can run. With simulated pieces of green paper, you can just type some numbers into a computer and suddenly there are twice as many of them as there were before. Or a hundred times as many. Or a trillion times as many...

orwin 4y ago
Okay, but creating money at will is not a bug, its a feature. I know there is this myth of the "no crisis ever during the gold standard era", but this is false. We had a crisis every ten years or so, sometime way bigger than the 2008 crisis despite the economies being less interconnected. And those crisis sometimes were entirely disconnected from production issues, unlike 2008 that is clearly linked with the conventional oil/gas peak. Because having liquidity that allow easy trading of ressources actually help recover faster and avoid made up crisis like the 1893 one in the US.
- stevesearer 4y ago
  From my limited knowledge, I don’t believe hard money advocates would say there are never any crises, but instead that they are shorter lived and not as large.
  - throw0101a 4y ago
    > […] but instead that they are shorter lived and not as large. Which of course does not match the historical record: * https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/08/why-the-gold-standard-is-the-worlds-worst-economic-idea-in-2-charts/261552/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/08/why-the... * https://archive.ph/FWKcL https://archive.ph/FWKcL
    - Grim-444 4y ago
      The article presents two graphs of arguably manipulated/unreliable CPI rates, and that's somehow being using as evidence for whether crises are larger or smaller? The article from the beginning uses obviously incredibly biased language throughout, it's a pure opinion hit piece; the author isn't even attempting to present an impartial view on the topic. It always amuses me how strongly people come out in opposition to the idea of the gold standard, when it demonstrably seemed to work for America, it powered the country from the time it was a collection of colonies to the time it had men driving buggies around on the moon. The country was on the gold standard for hundreds of years. Coming off the gold standard is the experiment, is the outlier. The gold standard obviously worked well enough for that vast majority of the country's history, yet it's somehow regarded by certain people as an obviously horrible idea which is gross, repugnant, "a barbarous relic that belongs in the dustbin of history". It just doesn't add up. If it's such an insanely horrible idea, how did it work so well for so long?
      - throw0101a 4y ago
        > The article presents two graphs of arguably manipulated/unreliable CPI rates […] And you can tell this because… ? > […] the author isn't even attempting to present an impartial view on the topic. Neither would someone who was arguing the Earth was round. > It always amuses me how strongly people come out in opposition to the idea of the gold standard, when it demonstrably seemed to work for America, it powered the country from the time it was a collection of colonies to the time it had men driving buggies around on the moon. No, it caused some huge boom and bust cycles, deflationary periods, and much suffering. It certainly made the Great Depression worse: * https://www.nber.org/papers/w3488 https://www.nber.org/papers/w3488 Gold-as-currency was useful when we didn't know better, but we've moved on. See The Power of Gold: The History of an Obsession by Bernstein for a good history: * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/249245.The_Power_of_Gold https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/249245.The_Power_of_Gold
throw0101a 4y ago
> Yes, but gold, bitcoin, and giant rocks can't be inflated at will, which is what the OP was complaining about. Governments have been fiddling with metal-based currencies going back to Ancient Rome and Han China: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seigniorage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seigniorage Never mind what the general public has done as well: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methods_of_coin_debasement#Coin_clipping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methods_of_coin_debasement#Coi... See Bernstein. > With simulated pieces of green paper, you can just type some numbers into a computer and suddenly there are twice as many of them as there were before. Or a hundred times as many. Or a trillion times as many... Yup, and that's how private banks create loans and mortgages: * https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/quarterly-bulletin/2014/q1/money-creation-in-the-modern-economy https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/quarterly-bulletin/2014/q1/m... Central banks do not create the money that the public uses in the economy, and the only money that the government creates is coins and bills via the their mints. Also, have you ever asked what happens when there isn't enough money? * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Slump_(15th_century) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Slump_(15th_century) * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Bullion_Famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Bullion_Famine * http://www.nber.org/chapters/c11482 http://www.nber.org/chapters/c11482 And it's not like 'hard money' brings any more stability: * https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/08/why-the-gold-standard-is-the-worlds-worst-economic-idea-in-2-charts/261552/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/08/why-the... * https://archive.ph/FWKcL https://archive.ph/FWKcL
- Turing_Machine 4y ago
  "Fiddling with" is not the same as "can create arbitrarily without limit". You're still not addressing the OP's actual complaint.
  - kqr 4y ago
    Governments can (and has!) "created arbitrarily without limit" metal currencies too. Given their monopoly on violence, they can just say "this coin now pays for ten pigs, not one, as you thought before". (Of course, they'd also decrease required tax payments correspondingly to maintain stable inflation.)

achenatx 4y ago

>>The only thing that has "inherent" value to humans is air/oxygen, shelter, water, and food. Everything else is psychological projection for convenience. This isnt really true. If you put someone in solitary confinement for long enough they will go insane. People commit suicide for a variety of mental health reasons. Mental health is absolutely as important as physical health and it isnt obvious where to draw the line for required vs. convenient. There is also health/medicine/medical care/sanitation. There are also secondary requirements that enable the production capacity for the above stated requirements.