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Proton is mired in shenanigans. Evidence points to ProtonVPN being a white-labeled version of Nord VPN. Source: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23571653 h

Proton is mired in shenanigans. Evidence points to ProtonVPN being a white-labeled version of Nord VPN. Source: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23571653 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23571653 and https://archive.is/iZ2l2 https://archive.is/iZ2l2 (archive of relevant but broken [2] link @ HN thread) Protonmail has its own issues that have been discussed on HN. Source: https://encryp.ch/blog/disturbing-facts-about-protonmail/ https://encryp.ch/blog/disturbing-facts-about-protonmail/ Obviously Gmail and such are piped directly into global intelligence databases, but Proton is not a panacea, and no guarantee they aren't compromised themselves.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
dimensionc132 4y ago
Proton .... the Fed honeypot that nobody wants to talk about, except, some sane and rational people who have looked at the evidence.
DashAnimal 4y ago
"Obviously Gmail and such are piped directly into global intelligence databases" Wait --- 'obviously'?!? Do you have any info on this because that is a wild claim.
- hosteur 4y ago
  Snowden docs
- charles_kaw 4y ago
  >Do you have any info on this because that is a wild claim. Not only has the concept and implementation of automated law enforcement portals been around since the 90s, the Snowden docs revealed that major providers were providing such portals. AND that their inter-datacenter communications were being piped directly into global intelligence databases without. These portals, NSLs, and other mechanisms have also been codified into law for over a decade, and their existence is extremely well documented as well as reinforced. It sounds like a wild claim, but unfortunately, it is extremely based in reality. And, it's so well documented that to be ignorant of it at this point is akin to incompetence.
  - mden 4y ago
    You're making a wildly different claim than the initial one. The initial claim is "obviously Gmail and such are piped directly into global intelligence databases". Portals for law enforcement which likely require some kind of warrant and very likely have regular audits are not slightly the same thing as directly piping the data to the intelligence community. As for "their inter-datacenter communications were being piped directly", that was revealed by Snowden and you correctly used the past tense "were". Is there evidence that either Alphabet or Meta are giving direct access to their users' data beyond what the law requires? (Disclaimer, employee of Google, my opinions are my own and all that. I have no info beyond what is public knowledge.)
    - bhk 4y ago
      > Portals for law enforcement which likely require some kind of warrant It was recently reported that major tech companies (including Google) release user data without warrants, and without even authenticating the party requesting the data: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30842757 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30842757
      - mden 4y ago
        That's an interesting article, thanks for the link. It doesn't support the original claim very strongly however. It showcases there's a flawed process for obtaining user data (which is still obviously bad) but it's far removed from Microsoft, Google, or Fb directly piping their data over to the NSA.
    - doliveira 4y ago
      Lots of "likely" and "were" in your comment... I'll be honest, this is really the first time I've seen a tech circle in which this whole surveillance apparatus is not a common established knowledge.
      - mden 4y ago
        To be clear I'm not saying there isn't an extensive surveillance apparatus. I'm saying the claim that giant tech companies are willfully providing unrestricted access to user data to the intelligence community is not at all an "obvious" one as claimed and requires evidence. Do you disagree with that?
- doliveira 4y ago
  We've known it for literally a decade now... How can you be ignorant of the whole Snowden docs?
- tediousdemise 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XKeyscore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XKeyscore > XKeyscore (XKEYSCORE or XKS) is a secret computer system used by the United States National Security Agency (NSA) for searching and analyzing global Internet data > XKeyscore is a complicated system, and various authors have different interpretations of its actual capabilities. Edward Snowden and Glenn Greenwald explained XKeyscore as being a system which enables almost unlimited surveillance of anyone anywhere in the world, while the NSA has said that usage of the system is limited and restricted. Think about that for a split second: anyone, anywhere. Also, who would you trust more: the US government, or a man who sacrificed his life, health and wellbeing to expose this scandal to the world? Alas, privacy for the masses is dead.
jibcage 4y ago
As someone who works for Proton VPN, I can assure you we do not resell any white label VPN services, and that the people I work with every day are incredibly smart people who truly, deeply care about users’ online privacy. I’ll concede that this isn’t much better evidence than the links you provided, but that archived site in your comment really doesn’t read like a reputable source of truth, either.
- metadat 4y ago
  How can we really know? At the end of the day, trusting a company to protect your best interests is, on average, a losing proposition.
- WithinReason 4y ago
  It seems to be a link to an archived site because the original comment has been retracted by the author.
  - hammock 4y ago
    Source? What’s the reason for given for the retraction?
    - WithinReason 4y ago
      Your article links to this as proof: https://archive.ph/1vaZ8 https://archive.ph/1vaZ8 Direct link: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17258203 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17258203 The allegations have been retracted.
ghspoll 4y ago
Obviously any provider can be a honeypot in theory, but I don't understand the following either: - How can ProtonVPN be free and why is it in Lithuania? - Why does a Swiss privacy company get EU funding if the EU wants to erode privacy all the time? - Why is a cell phone number required for registration? - In general, how do they make money? Other free providers like gmx are full of cheesy advertisements.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

dimensionc132 4y ago

Proton .... the Fed honeypot that nobody wants to talk about, except, some sane and rational people who have looked at the evidence.

DashAnimal 4y ago

"Obviously Gmail and such are piped directly into global intelligence databases" Wait --- 'obviously'?!? Do you have any info on this because that is a wild claim.

hosteur 4y ago
Snowden docs
charles_kaw 4y ago
>Do you have any info on this because that is a wild claim. Not only has the concept and implementation of automated law enforcement portals been around since the 90s, the Snowden docs revealed that major providers were providing such portals. AND that their inter-datacenter communications were being piped directly into global intelligence databases without. These portals, NSLs, and other mechanisms have also been codified into law for over a decade, and their existence is extremely well documented as well as reinforced. It sounds like a wild claim, but unfortunately, it is extremely based in reality. And, it's so well documented that to be ignorant of it at this point is akin to incompetence.
- mden 4y ago
  You're making a wildly different claim than the initial one. The initial claim is "obviously Gmail and such are piped directly into global intelligence databases". Portals for law enforcement which likely require some kind of warrant and very likely have regular audits are not slightly the same thing as directly piping the data to the intelligence community. As for "their inter-datacenter communications were being piped directly", that was revealed by Snowden and you correctly used the past tense "were". Is there evidence that either Alphabet or Meta are giving direct access to their users' data beyond what the law requires? (Disclaimer, employee of Google, my opinions are my own and all that. I have no info beyond what is public knowledge.)
  - bhk 4y ago
    > Portals for law enforcement which likely require some kind of warrant It was recently reported that major tech companies (including Google) release user data without warrants, and without even authenticating the party requesting the data: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30842757 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30842757
    - mden 4y ago
      That's an interesting article, thanks for the link. It doesn't support the original claim very strongly however. It showcases there's a flawed process for obtaining user data (which is still obviously bad) but it's far removed from Microsoft, Google, or Fb directly piping their data over to the NSA.
  - doliveira 4y ago
    Lots of "likely" and "were" in your comment... I'll be honest, this is really the first time I've seen a tech circle in which this whole surveillance apparatus is not a common established knowledge.
    - mden 4y ago
      To be clear I'm not saying there isn't an extensive surveillance apparatus. I'm saying the claim that giant tech companies are willfully providing unrestricted access to user data to the intelligence community is not at all an "obvious" one as claimed and requires evidence. Do you disagree with that?
doliveira 4y ago
We've known it for literally a decade now... How can you be ignorant of the whole Snowden docs?
tediousdemise 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XKeyscore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XKeyscore > XKeyscore (XKEYSCORE or XKS) is a secret computer system used by the United States National Security Agency (NSA) for searching and analyzing global Internet data > XKeyscore is a complicated system, and various authors have different interpretations of its actual capabilities. Edward Snowden and Glenn Greenwald explained XKeyscore as being a system which enables almost unlimited surveillance of anyone anywhere in the world, while the NSA has said that usage of the system is limited and restricted. Think about that for a split second: anyone, anywhere. Also, who would you trust more: the US government, or a man who sacrificed his life, health and wellbeing to expose this scandal to the world? Alas, privacy for the masses is dead.

jibcage 4y ago

As someone who works for Proton VPN, I can assure you we do not resell any white label VPN services, and that the people I work with every day are incredibly smart people who truly, deeply care about users’ online privacy. I’ll concede that this isn’t much better evidence than the links you provided, but that archived site in your comment really doesn’t read like a reputable source of truth, either.

metadat 4y ago
How can we really know? At the end of the day, trusting a company to protect your best interests is, on average, a losing proposition.
WithinReason 4y ago
It seems to be a link to an archived site because the original comment has been retracted by the author.
- hammock 4y ago
  Source? What’s the reason for given for the retraction?
  - WithinReason 4y ago
    Your article links to this as proof: https://archive.ph/1vaZ8 https://archive.ph/1vaZ8 Direct link: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17258203 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17258203 The allegations have been retracted.

ghspoll 4y ago

Obviously any provider can be a honeypot in theory, but I don't understand the following either: - How can ProtonVPN be free and why is it in Lithuania? - Why does a Swiss privacy company get EU funding if the EU wants to erode privacy all the time? - Why is a cell phone number required for registration? - In general, how do they make money? Other free providers like gmx are full of cheesy advertisements.