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Wow Will was such a part of my childhood watching Star Trek. Obviously, he didn't appear often but he was memorable simply because there were so few people as y

Wow Will was such a part of my childhood watching Star Trek. Obviously, he didn't appear often but he was memorable simply because there were so few people as young as him on the show. Sad to hear this all around. This also brought back memories of me being required to play piano growing up. I hated piano, performing (recitals), playing in general. I was terrrribbleee (still am) and was put up in lessons for 12 years. I fought tooth and nail as I got older and eventually was so bad my parents stopped at 16. Music is a very "asian" or "chinese" thing to put your child through. As well as being good academically. This part of my life was a sore spot, but not even close Will's situation. As I have young children of my own today, I'm faced with these questions. What is a healthy amount of pushing vs too much? I don't need my kid to be the best at anything - I just don't want them to be lost/dead-in-the-water or unable to fend for themselves.

Tomte 4y ago
If you don't know that part of Wil, yet: https://wilwheaton.net/2012/09/depression-lies/ https://wilwheaton.net/2012/09/depression-lies/ is a very poignant blog post on depression. It's reinforced by a mirror blog post, written by his wife: https://www.annewheaton.com/the-other-side-of-depression/ https://www.annewheaton.com/the-other-side-of-depression/
manmal 4y ago
Clarification: I‘m talking about self-actualization & leisure time here, not chores. > What is a healthy amount of pushing vs too much? There is no healthy amount of pushing, period. If you stop applying pressure, children will find their own thing, and that’s the best outcome for them. Just make sure they know the possibilities of what they could do. What would you have liked to do instead of learning piano? Did you need pressure from your parents to have those ideas? I asked my parents for a keyboard. My mother said that I‘d need to learn piano first - so I agreed to take lessons instead. 8 years later, I gave up on piano lessons, with no keyboard in sight. Haven’t touched the piano since. I wonder what would’ve happened if they had just bought me that cheap keyboard instead.
- obiefernandez 4y ago
  I wish my parents had pushed me to practice piano. They subjected me to lessons for almost 2 years, and I didn't mind (although the 30 minute drive each way to the teacher's house sucked.) However, between lessons instead of practicing I would just fck off and improvise and try to teach myself popular songs instead of actually practicing, and I'm not talking about hours each day either, maybe more like a few minutes. Which meant it was all a collossal waste of time and money. Parents sometimes need to push their kids.
  - beardyw 4y ago
    Same story here. The piano teacher refused to teach me in the end. That said, as a result I can busk a bit, and have come to realise that physical tasks to be done in a repeatable way are outside my ability. So the world has not lost a great pianist.
  - bigmealbigmeal 4y ago
    "I would just fck off and improvise and try to teach myself popular songs instead of actually practicing" I did the exact same thing, except now I'm a skilled keyboardist (and multi-instrumentalist) who gets paid for gigs. I still spend most of my time fucking around and improvising. Every bit of theory I discovered through fucking around and just exploring freely. I never do scales: I just pick a key and start improvising. If my parents had pushed me to 'actually practice', I would have rebelled and quit altogether. They did for a couple of years. And I did quit. Fortunately, I found my way back to it, on my own terms, because I simply loved playing instruments -- but I loved doing it on my own terms, not someone else's. The frank truth is that some people really like playing instruments, and some are just 'meh' about it. Those who have a tendency to enjoy playing an instrument just need to have access to one -- and then they'll find their way. On the other hand, if a child is 'meh' about an instrument, is it really worth punishing and forcing them through all of it? What's the goddamn point? Isn't life to be enjoyed? Is it really just a series of skills to stoically master?
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nlnn 4y ago
It's a tough one. If you discover a passion for something as an adult, you'll often wish your parents had pushed you into it as a kid. I feel this way about music, zero education as a kid, started late as an adult, but feel I'll never catch up. Though there's no way of knowing whether I'd have felt the same as a kid, or pushed back against it at the time.
- benkwokcy 4y ago
  You don't have to catch up. It doesn't matter how good you are, only if you are enjoying it.
  - irjustin 4y ago
    At the same time, I understand it. There are some things simply out of reach, music you literally cannot play because those wires weren't built when you were younger.
    - darylteo 4y ago
      Exactly... at the elite level activities nowadays are simply out of reach to individuals who were not wholly absorbed in it from a young age. Federer - 8. Nadal/Djokovic - 4. S. Williams - 3. L. Hamilton - 8. M. Schumacher - 6. Verstappen - 4. Phelps - 7. Messi - 4. C. Ronaldo - 7. M. Carlsen - 5. Lebron - 9. S. Curry - 6 Some people are just lucky to be good at the things they love doing. The others have to be content with getting paid for the things that they're good at to pay for the things that they love doing.
      - Jataman606 4y ago
        Jimi Hendrix - 15.
      - ciceryadam 4y ago
        Andre Agassi wrote an autobiography, in it he explains that his father groomed him for tennis greatness by building a tennis court in their backyard, and by sending him to tennis boarding school. Agassi also said that he had always hated tennis during his career.
chrischen 4y ago
It’s very easy for the parents to manipulate the child into thinking it’s their own idea, whether through guilt or simply not knowing any better. The parents are in a much more powerful position psychologically and mentally. So even if you don’t force them beyond their immediate will you could be doing something negatively. I think the best way to decide what’s too much is to think about whether or not the child will, 20 years from now, write a blog post shaming and exposing their abuse inflicted upon them.
wahern 4y ago
> Music is a very "asian" or "chinese" thing to put your child through. Asian culture simply adopted American and English culture in this regard. In the United States circa 1950s and 1960s it was very common for children to be taking piano lessons, and owning a piano was also relatively common. Both the lessons and the piano itself were important status symbols, and having both were considered markers of being middle-class. My mother's side was middle-class Irish-Catholic and she and all her siblings had to take lessons; they also grew up with a piano in the home. By contrast, my fathers side was working-class Polish-German and both pianos and piano lessons were well out of reach--the family cleaned the church on weekends for reduced Catholic school tuition. But I think all 4 of my paternal aunts did have pianos in their homes as adults. So most of my cousins (all maternal, most paternal) grew up with pianos in their homes, though their parents were much less strict about lessons. My wife, who grew up in Malaysia, had the same experience as my mother. All of her grandparents were already middle-class (shop owners, professionals, etc), but old-world Chinese middle-class where status markers were making donations to religious and fraternal organizations or studying calligraphy. It was her parents generation that bought pianos and forced the kids to take lessons. And doing the same was important for both she and her brother. (I also appreciate the desire, it's just less of a parental priority for me.) The practice may be a little stickier in Asian culture (both in Asia and Asian diaspora) as the piano slotted into similar, pre-existing social customs which may remain more durable, but I think the overall arc is basically the same, just shifted up one or two generations.
- bobthepanda 4y ago
  as a second generation Chinese American, at least growing up it seemed like keeping up with the rest of the community, but it wasn't really so much about being middle class, but more about the kind of "so and so's child is a star tennis player, a pianist, the class president, speaks three languages, and they're probably going to get into Harvard and my child is going to need to keep up."
  - TheAznestWhitey 4y ago
    Went to high school with the daughter of Chinese immigrants like that. Star tennis player, stellar pianist, 1st chair violinist in the city's youth orchestra, valedictorian, ivy league med school, doctor, etc... Some people are just built differently.
laurieg 4y ago
I think a lot about how much pushing is the right amount. When I was very young I had piano lessons. My memories are only dim, but I think I enjoyed them. I also gave them up quite quickly. I distinctly remember trying to play a little tune and messing it up again and again. I didn't have the skills to deal with my frustration and anger. I didn't have the perseverance. Perhaps if someone had helped me through this I could have persisted, or perhaps it was just too early for me and I needed some more life experience before I could handle it. When it comes down to it I think kids need lots of opportunities to try many things, as well as the experience of "going deep" on one thing. It doesn't really matter if it's dance, music, art, programming, languages or whatever. There's always the meta-game of skill acquisition going on. Learning that time, effort, consistent practice, thoughtful reflection are useful is the real goal. It's also worth remembering that children are unique people with unique personalities. They will all have different challenges and respond to the world around them in different ways.
- cycomanic 4y ago
  The way I handle this with my kids is that if they don't feel like going to some activity at some point I will try to give a bit of a push (sometimes it's more about leaving the current activity then going to the next). However, I make very sure they enjoy the activities. If my daughter say they want to stop generally we will stop immediately. I am quite lucky though, if anything they need to be held back a bit, my older sometimes complains that there are not enough days in the week because wants to try something more.
- dwighttk 4y ago
  The movie Whiplash looks into this question. It goes to the extreme, and while I never had anything like abuse in my school music career there were a few spots that made me think back. It is an intense movie, but I think well done.
  - alexktz 4y ago
    My experience at music conservatory in England was very close to the bone on this movie. It was painful to watch in many ways, so in respect it’s well done and an accurate representation of the egotistical way things work in this world professionally. Most music colleges have a suicide garden because the pressure is so intense. A suicide garden for a place inhabited by mostly teenagers. Think about that for a sec. Ultimately I gave up on being a professional musician because I graduated in 2008, once you graduate you realise you’re competing against everyone else in the world and that’s much harder than just your peers, and IT reliable pay cheques were comfortable. I’m a happy hobby musician these days but it took me nearly a decade to start enjoying to play music again after the competitive rat race of music college.
powerapple 4y ago
a kid only wants to play video game all life, and what does he know what he wants anyway. I believe kids can learn anything, can go any direction without problem. The only issue is the teacher. A good teacher will make a kid enjoy something, a bad teacher will make a kid hate something. That's the only difference. A lot people are interested in the outcome, and does not spend too much time thinking about the process, that's the problem.
blitzar 4y ago
> This also brought back memories of me being required to play piano growing up Funnily enough, every friend brought up "working class", who had no access to music / sport etc is envious of my forced violin lessons, choir practice and sports after school all year round.
noneeeed 4y ago
We encourage our kids to do sport and music, but they choose which ones (and have both changed as they get older) and we stop if they are not enjoying it or getting something out of it. We are also careful about what teachers/schools they go to to avoid ones that are mills for competitions etc. some teachers are as bad as over competitive parents. The important thing is to encourage but listen to them. And to make it clear that they can just do it for fun.
tgv 4y ago
I'm the opposite (although I also watched Star Trek in my youth). My (Western) parents also got me to learn music, and I loved it. Still do. Not that I'm good: I've reached some intermediate difficulty level, but I really enjoy playing the classics, and discovering new music, as well as composing and mucking around with a computer and its incredible sound capabilities. Many like me wouldn't have found the wonderful gift of music, or would have found it very late in life if it hadn't been for our parents, so in a sense, I'm grateful for your offer. I do agree that one should stop making children do things once it's become obvious that they don't enjoy it. 12 years is too long.
nurettin 4y ago
I wish I was pushed as a child to play the piano. And I did it for my child. He endured it for a year. He's talented and he's at the beginner's level, but when we observed closely, he didn't want to practise. He only did it when we threatened him with stopping the lessons. So we just let it go. Now we have a piano at the house. He sometimes plays whatever he likes. Maybe he will pick it up later in his life. Maybe I will pick it up. All in all, I guess there is no one good way of raising a kid.
- girvo 4y ago
  My parents were similar (I played trombone, though I was terrible at it. Or I felt I was anyway). One interesting thing, is the thing I am best at, I had to sneak and scrape and fight tooth and nail to do, which was learn to program on our PC: the thing that is my life and career now two decades on. I've been programming my whole life, but all throughout my childhood my parents hated the idea of me spending my time on the computer tapping away at GameMaker v4 and work through QBasic and the C++ book a family friend gave me (I think I was using the Digital Mars compiler at the time?).
  - piperswe 4y ago
    Same story here - my parents fought the uphill battle until they ran out of steam to try and get me to do anything else, but my career has basically shut them up on that now
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  - redshirtrob 4y ago
    Hello there. That's eerily familiar. For me it was sports (although I was quite good at baseball and soccer) and Turbo Pascal. My parents, especially my Mom, put up a huge resistance to me programming. I had to promise to try out for the HS basketball team (easily my worst sport) to get a computer. I'd been cut the previous two years so of course I barely made the team that time. My Mom was convinced I was sitting in the computer room playing games. When I told her: "No, I was programming", she asked what I was programming. Of course I told her I was writing a game, as all kids learning to program were. She responded: "See! Games!" as though she'd somehow proven her point. But, like you, I've made my career from programming and it's treated me quite well for the most part.
nicolas_t 4y ago
That's something me and my wife struggle with now that we have a child. We both wish we had been pushed more when it comes to music lessons. So, we think we will try to get him to learn piano or an other instrument (except violin). However, we will most likely put a time limit, if after 3 years he still doesn't really like it, he can give it up. The idea, is that I think that for certain things like music, it only really become enjoyable once one has developed a certain amount of competence. So 3 years mean having enough basics so that our son can decide if he likes it or not.
- harel 4y ago
  Nudge is better than "push".
- andris9 4y ago
  My wife had this idea that we had our kids learn less-popular instruments. Viola instead of violin, harpsichord instead of piano. Playing piano is super competetive, you could put a lot of effort into it and still there are so many better players than you. In comparison the local harpsichord community is very happy to have a new member, everybody is supportive and it is much easier for the kids.
  - nicolas_t 4y ago
    That's a good idea... One reason I mentioned piano is that as an adult I finally decided to learn piano and I guess at a young age seeing his dad try to also learn the same instrument might be more motivating... I do love the sound of harpsichord though :) But getting one at home is much harder whereas electronic pianos with good weighted keys are cheap and don't take so much space.
  - Aidevah 4y ago
    Charles Rosen relayed this wonderful anecdote about the great musicologist Oliver Strunk (son of the William Strunk of Strunk & White fame); >His interests ranged over almost the whole of music, although his appreciation of the modern period may not have gone beyond Bartok. I remember he once told me that he used to own a harpsichord but had exchanged it for a piano, and when I asked why, he said that it was too difficult to sight-read the tone poems of Strauss at the harpsichord. The piano used to be the gateway to all sorts of music, both vocal, orchestral and chamber, via transcriptions. And enthusiasts would get to know pieces that are performed in concert by sight reading it on their piano at home beforehand. The harpsichord is less versatile than the piano in this regard. But then again the primary way of getting to know new music nowadays has been through recordings, and this has been the case for a very long time, so the practical deficiencies of the harpsichord compared to the piano may be less noticeable now. On the other hand, learning a continuo instrument like the harpsichord invariably involves some sort of training in improvised thoroughbass, which is an extremely valuable skill that is not found among pianists, so I think it's a pretty good choice in the end after all.
pronlover723 4y ago
There are tons of adults that are thankful their parents forced them to learn something (a second language, a musical instrument, ...). There are also tons of adults forever angry at themselves for complaining to the point their parents let them stop studying whatever "it" was. I learned Japanese as an adult. I know at least 3 Americans of Japanese descent angry at themselves for complaining to their parents to let them stop extra curricular Japanese classes as children. One was so angry I can't speak an Japanese around him because it just triggers his self loathing over this issue. I don't have an answer. My dad's side of the family were all professional musicians (though they had other jobs too). My dad never pushed me to play and basically said if I wanted to learn I'd have to push for lessons. Of course I was a kid and just wanted to play video games. I personally wish (or think I wish) they had pushed a little more.
- seunosewa 4y ago
  I think the answer is to let them try different things. There's going to be something that they like better than the others. If they keep begging you to stop making them do a thing, that's a clue that it's not the right one.
  - pronlover723 4y ago
    When your 8yr old kid says they want to stop going go school and just stay at home and play video games to you let them? Or do you make them go to school? (most parents would make them go to school and many of the same parents that would force their kids to go to school are the same parents who say "don't force your kids to do stuff". I don't know where to draw the line but the fact that many parents are doing both suggests they really haven't applied any actual thought to why one is okay to force and the other is not.
  - jstummbillig 4y ago
    In the beginning giving up early seems like no big deal to the parent. At some point they might get a little uneasy. Are you maybe inadvertently teaching your child that giving up is okay by giving in too early and often? On the flip side, being increasingly heavy handed about finally sticking with the current thing because you are also battling with your own sense of time getting short to teach persistence seems problematic. Tricky.
madaxe_again 4y ago
My curse was being good at pretty much anything I tried my hand at - and it lead my parents to constantly have enormous expectations of me. If I didn’t win the national competition for X, I was a miserable failure, and what would the other children and parents think. This even extended to ridiculous stuff like having me eat “advanced foods for his age”. Constant expectations of precociousness… which I was all too happy to fulfil. I wanted my eternally miserable mother to be happy. This was my entire childhood. If I wasn’t constantly overachieving, there were threats of having me institutionalised (I never really understood the threat, given that I was already being raised at boarding school, how much worse could an asylum be?), actual privations (I came second in the year in some exams once because I had to do them from bed with bronchitis, and went home at the end of term to find my bedroom had been turned into a parlour), and the general gaslighting (Mr Hart is a very nice man, he would never do that (he is now in prison)) of childhood. It was my mother, mainly, trying to make her own stunted and valueless life feel worthwhile. I forgive her, for she wasn’t much more than a child herself, and came from a small and terror-ridden world in the poverty of the decaying Scottish industrial heartland. She knew not what she did. She married a yuppie, an 80’s guy of the 70’s, and clambered onwards and upwards, putting on airs and graces you’d never think came from a girl who grew up in a trailer on a marsh next to a military base. I recall testing this hypothesis, that it was about her, not me, aged 11, when I was Shanghai’d into doing a production with the Chicago lyric - she’d been pimping me out as a boy soprano with an English accent in Chicagoland, and crap did it sell. I decided to not tell her. Kept it completely under wraps while I rehearsed, told her I was throwing rocks at birds or something to explain the time, which was far more believable. Show rolls around. She’s there, at the premiere, because she has to be seen at all of this stuff, always. She was FURIOUS - I don’t remember a more severe beating from my father - that I had shamed her in such a way, that I had let her down so richly. The thing she was upset about, of course, is that I’d made it rather hard for her to take the credit, as she’d had literally zero involvement and everyone knew it. We left Chicago a few months on, and I was removed from the school that had helped me go behind her back. I feel for Wil. It’s a tough thing to live with, the anger, the absolute fucking outrage at what was done to you, balanced with the fact that whether you like it or not you still love these damaged shitheads, and your seemingly never ending quest for understanding why. I understood, only in my late 30’s, the past few years, that none of it was my fault. I still haven’t entirely internalised that, maybe never will, but finding peace with my mother as just being the not terribly worldly or foresightful person that she is. I pity her hollowed out little life of gin and gardeners, but if it’s her crowning achievement, so be it, that’s her life to ruin. I got mine, mostly, back.
kibibyte 4y ago
Ooh, this definitely struck a chord in me, as I fall right into that stereotype. I was forced to play piano for 10 years and to do all those recitals and music theory tests. I could never wiggle myself out of it because of all the guilt-tripping. So of course, I went to college and promptly dropped all of it. And unexpectedly, nearly a decade later, this pandemic thing happened, I returned to piano, recently bought a digital piano, and found a teacher. I practice 1-2 hours every day. And a lot of those skills I thought I would have lost returned pretty quickly. I have a lot of complicated emotions around this that I haven’t really quite figured out. But if I were to summarize them at their current stage, they’d be something like: (1) I am grateful that I was pushed to learn this instrument, (2) I realized I really disliked my childhood piano teacher, (3) my parents failed to recognize that for 10 years (as evidenced by never presenting the option of finding someone else), and (4) playing to inflate someone else’s ego is absolutely demotivating. One of the unfortunate effects is that roughly 1/3rd of Mozart’s sonatas are unplayable because I have some bad memories associated with them. Fortunately, there’s plenty of music in the world that don’t trigger those feelings, and I am so glad that I didn’t play that much Chopin back then. Maybe that might help? I’m not a parent, so consider these raw ideas that need some work to become parenting advice.
- coldtea 4y ago
  >my parents failed to recognize that for 10 years (as evidenced by never presenting the option of finding someone else) Well, in this case tho, did you ever suggest it? I mean, if it was a matter of disliking the material or the teaching style, but otherwise those lessons weren't in bad form, abusive, etc., so they couldn't see anything bad about them, how would they know?
  - mkl 4y ago
    (Not OP) I think it's pretty common for kids to not realise something's a problem, or to not realise there are other possibilities. Something happened to me as a kid that had a significant negative effect on my life, but I only understood that decades later, and no one else was aware of the problem at the time.
narag 4y ago
As I have young children of my own today, I'm faced with these questions. What is a healthy amount of pushing vs too much? What about not at all? The only thing they need to be good, not even best, is the studies that will enable them to work. Just help them if they're falling behind. Os support them if they seem to have a passion for something in particular. But otherwise, let them have a life.
- kelnos 4y ago
  I wrote about this in a sibling comment to yours, but I think kids should be pushed at least some amount. I wish I could play piano today, but I was too lazy/unfocused to practice as a kid, and so my mom canceled my lessons and I never learned. It's something I wish my mom had pushed me to do back then. Kids don't always know what's best for them, and they will sometimes take short-term satisfaction (not having to endure the monotony of deliberate practice) at the expense of long-term satisfaction (being able to play well after a time). That's not to say parents should always force the issue. Certainly sometimes the kid really is expressing a preference that should be honored. But not always.
  - narag 4y ago
    Do you realize you can still learn to play? Maybe not to reach a professional level, but enough to enjoy yourself. I didn't "push" my son. I did teach him myself what I knew, for years. He can play with both hands and sing along. We visited one nearby conservatory where one of his friends was going to study and talk with some teachers. He finally decided to pass. Yes, he's been playing much more Minecraft than piano since then. But now he's finished his second Maths year with flying colors and we're both happy ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- Kleto 4y ago
  That just sounds lazy. Kids are not able to just learn or discover there world by themselves. I got a ton of influence from my parents and peers just not enough or relatively late. I was not able to just buy a PC and let an electrition install the internet. Suggesting music lessons and instruments is also pushing.
kelnos 4y ago
> What is a healthy amount of pushing vs too much? I think that's really hard to answer. I was in a sort of opposite situation as you were as a kid. My sister and I started piano lessons when I was 7 or 8 years old. They went on for a year and a half or so. Neither of us liked practicing. Our mom told us if we didn't practice, we wouldn't have lessons anymore. So... we didn't have lessons anymore. Today, I really wish I could play, and wish my parents had pushed us harder to stick with the lessons. But I could very easily see it going the other way (if not for piano, than for something else), with my sister and I being forced to do something we hated. So yeah, really hard to figure out where that balance is. In contrast, just a couple years later I started playing trumpet in school, and did stick with that, at least through college. I was quite good at it (not really to the point I could play professionally, but good enough to score well in local and regional amateur competitions). But it's kinda hard to play a loud brass instrument in apartment and condo buildings without making some angry neighbors. It's another reason why I wish I could play piano, since electric ones have volume controls and headphone jacks. Of course, obviously taking piano lessons is a much much much much more minor thing than being forced to be a child star and contemplating suicide...
gwd 4y ago
> As I have young children of my own today, I'm faced with these questions. What is a healthy amount of pushing vs too much? I don't need my kid to be the best at anything - I just don't want them to be lost/dead-in-the-water or unable to fend for themselves. If you read other things written by Wil Wheaton, you'll find (according to his description) that his parents had a very perverse relationship with each other, and used him as a pawn in whatever twisted relationship games they were playing. Neither one actually cared about him as a person. There was no way he was going to come out of a situation like that un-scarred. "Love covers a multitude of sins." Genuinely love your kids, and you won't go too far wrong. EDIT: From TFA: > It’s been clear for as long as I can remember that my mom and my dad don’t feel bad or anything about how much they hurt me, or how much their choices affected my life. My dad doesn’t care at all, and never did. Don't be like those guys, and your children won't end up like Wil.
- fristechill 4y ago
  Parents, love your children, as much as you can. Children, honour your parents, as much as you can. The alternative is resentment, a condition toxic enough to keep anyone in hell.
  - noasaservice 4y ago
    - dang 4y ago
      Please don't post in the flamewar style to HN, regardless of how wrong someone's religion is or some parents are or you feel it/they are. Perhaps you don't owe bad religion or bad parents or bad internet comments better, but you owe this community better if you're participating in it. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: you've unfortunately been breaking the site guidelines quite a bit recently. Could you please not? We have to ban accounts that do that—because it's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for—and I don't want to ban you.
gsatic 4y ago
'Drill and kill' doesn't just work. It's a requirement to Learning. Most learning happens only through repeatition/practice. Get them comfortable with repeatition as early as possible and they will be fine.
tyleo 4y ago
“What is a healthy amount of pushing vs too much?” Is a great question. Some friends and I had fairly negative experiences with childhood activities (for me sports, for them music). However, as we reflect on them as adults we are quite happy that we were pushed into uncomfortable scenarios and “forced” to learn life long skills. Indeed, some of my friends argue that they wish they were pushed a bit harder. All that being said, the amount of “pushing” my friends and I experienced does not seem be irregular (like in the article). It does lead me to believe there is some “okay” amount of pushing. Does anyone have perspective on where they draw the line?
- goodpoint 4y ago
  No, it's not about the quantity of "pushing", it's about the quality. Is it warmly encouraging and being supportive or is emotional manipulation?
octobus2021 4y ago
I was made to study music (piano, singing, solfeggio) growing up. Basically robbed me of childhood - no free time (classes 6 days a week), no friends, constant pressure to do something I didn't want to. At 8th grade a just said I'm not going anymore and mom gave up. My kids are now involved in a lot of extracurriculars, including piano, but I'm trying to make sure they have life outside of school and activities. I think it's not all bad, it's a matter of balance you need to find as a parent.
soylentcola 4y ago
> Wow Will was such a part of my childhood watching Star Trek. Obviously, he didn't appear often but he was memorable simply because there were so few people as young as him on the show. Yeah, he's 5 years older than me, but I remember watching that show and daydreaming about how cool it would be to live on the Enterprise and how I would be best friends with Wesley Crusher. I know adults loved to rag on the character and (re-watching it as an adult) I can see where some of the criticism of how he was written comes from. But there were so many parts of that show that have not aged well, and the "token genius kid" is still one of the least annoying to me.
- staticman2 4y ago
  I think a problem with Wesley is he seems to have undeveloped social skills for his age (possibly due to a lack of peers his own age to interact with) but the lack of social skills doesn't seem to be intentional on the part of the writers, Wesley is just oddly written. As someone who struggled with socializing in school I think Wesley was a poor role model. As an adult rewatching it I don't care, I would just acknowledge how weird/ alien the human characters on the enterprise act.
BackBlast 4y ago
Pushing wasn't the problem here, at least not the primary one. It was a lack of love, understanding, and support from parents. He didn't feel heard, he didn't feel loved. His mother made it clear what her priority was, and it wasn't him. Will probably could have been an actor and had a loving supportive mother. At least it's possible. Plenty of children benefit from hard work with their families. When the relationships are toxic then that time becomes toxic probably along with the activity. When there's love, they may not do that thing forever, but they will not hate it like this. With my children, I encourage exploration of their skills, desires, and I've started them on paths towards lifelong careers from youngish ages (12-13). Which includes learning skills and testing things out. But I keep a keen ear open to their desires and an eye on their actual aptitudes and try really hard to match them up with useful work that they will like long term. I also try not to push so hard I kill the joy in the exploration and discovery while trying to keep expectations up and providing on-level material for them to level up at their own pace. Children want expectations. They need expectations. Just also fill their lives with love — especially active love involving your time and attention. So that they thoroughly know that they are loved and valued well above and beyond any of these things or activities, and it will generally go well.
Balgair 4y ago
> What is a healthy amount of pushing vs too much? David Epstein somewhat tackles this question in Range[0]. The issue come down to the type of 'learning environment' of the activity you are trying to get the kid into. 'Kind Learning Environments' are ones like golf or chess. The rules are clear, the feedback is rapid, standings are knowable, and the skills are uniform. For Kind learning environments, you just grind out the hours. Here you can use Gladwell's 10,000 hours to shine. 'Unkind Learning Environments' are ones like tennis, business, or poker. The rules are murky, the feedback is delayed, standings are at time undiscernible, and the skills are varied. For unkind learning environments, you have to graze on a lot of other disciplines to shine. Just grinding out the hours won't result in great results. Epstein specifically uses Ospedale della Pietà as an example of greatness in music. He says that concert musicians use the learning styles of Kind environments, while jazz musicians use Unkind styles. A great union of the Kind and Unkind was in Venice at Ospedale della Pietà where female orphans became some of the best classical musicians in history due to the unique factors at the orphanage. So the answer, per Epstein, to your question is that it depends (sorry!). Do you want an orchestra music playing child? Use the Kind learning environment techniques of grinding away 10,000 hours. Do you want a more jazz music playing child? Use the Unkind learning techniques of many other disciplines and getting through the 10,000 hours in fits and spurts. Epstein's book goes into waaaay better detail than my comment's haphazard and poorly remembered accounting. If you're serious about the question, I'd buy it and read it. [0] https://www.amazon.com/Range-Generalists-Triumph-Specialized-World/dp/0735214484 https://www.amazon.com/Range-Generalists-Triumph-Specialized... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ospedale_della_Piet%C3%A0 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ospedale_della_Piet%C3%A0
- marklubi 4y ago
  Thank you for the book recommendation. I haven’t read it yet, but from the description and your comment, it seems like it puts its finger right on something I’ve contemplated for years. The general ability to excel in a lot of different things, because of exposure to a variety of things, without necessarily being a 10,000 hour master in any of them, goes a long way. Particularly, being able to combine multiple aspects from multiple disciplines to solve a problem from a different perspective. Edit: To just expand my thoughts a bit further, I think it comes down to sometimes “you don’t know what you don’t know.” Being exposed to more things goes a long way.

Tomte 4y ago

If you don't know that part of Wil, yet: https://wilwheaton.net/2012/09/depression-lies/ https://wilwheaton.net/2012/09/depression-lies/ is a very poignant blog post on depression. It's reinforced by a mirror blog post, written by his wife: https://www.annewheaton.com/the-other-side-of-depression/ https://www.annewheaton.com/the-other-side-of-depression/

manmal 4y ago

Clarification: I‘m talking about self-actualization & leisure time here, not chores. > What is a healthy amount of pushing vs too much? There is no healthy amount of pushing, period. If you stop applying pressure, children will find their own thing, and that’s the best outcome for them. Just make sure they know the possibilities of what they could do. What would you have liked to do instead of learning piano? Did you need pressure from your parents to have those ideas? I asked my parents for a keyboard. My mother said that I‘d need to learn piano first - so I agreed to take lessons instead. 8 years later, I gave up on piano lessons, with no keyboard in sight. Haven’t touched the piano since. I wonder what would’ve happened if they had just bought me that cheap keyboard instead.

obiefernandez 4y ago
I wish my parents had pushed me to practice piano. They subjected me to lessons for almost 2 years, and I didn't mind (although the 30 minute drive each way to the teacher's house sucked.) However, between lessons instead of practicing I would just fck off and improvise and try to teach myself popular songs instead of actually practicing, and I'm not talking about hours each day either, maybe more like a few minutes. Which meant it was all a collossal waste of time and money. Parents sometimes need to push their kids.
- beardyw 4y ago
  Same story here. The piano teacher refused to teach me in the end. That said, as a result I can busk a bit, and have come to realise that physical tasks to be done in a repeatable way are outside my ability. So the world has not lost a great pianist.
- bigmealbigmeal 4y ago
  "I would just fck off and improvise and try to teach myself popular songs instead of actually practicing" I did the exact same thing, except now I'm a skilled keyboardist (and multi-instrumentalist) who gets paid for gigs. I still spend most of my time fucking around and improvising. Every bit of theory I discovered through fucking around and just exploring freely. I never do scales: I just pick a key and start improvising. If my parents had pushed me to 'actually practice', I would have rebelled and quit altogether. They did for a couple of years. And I did quit. Fortunately, I found my way back to it, on my own terms, because I simply loved playing instruments -- but I loved doing it on my own terms, not someone else's. The frank truth is that some people really like playing instruments, and some are just 'meh' about it. Those who have a tendency to enjoy playing an instrument just need to have access to one -- and then they'll find their way. On the other hand, if a child is 'meh' about an instrument, is it really worth punishing and forcing them through all of it? What's the goddamn point? Isn't life to be enjoyed? Is it really just a series of skills to stoically master?
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nlnn 4y ago

It's a tough one. If you discover a passion for something as an adult, you'll often wish your parents had pushed you into it as a kid. I feel this way about music, zero education as a kid, started late as an adult, but feel I'll never catch up. Though there's no way of knowing whether I'd have felt the same as a kid, or pushed back against it at the time.

benkwokcy 4y ago
You don't have to catch up. It doesn't matter how good you are, only if you are enjoying it.
- irjustin 4y ago
  At the same time, I understand it. There are some things simply out of reach, music you literally cannot play because those wires weren't built when you were younger.
  - darylteo 4y ago
    Exactly... at the elite level activities nowadays are simply out of reach to individuals who were not wholly absorbed in it from a young age. Federer - 8. Nadal/Djokovic - 4. S. Williams - 3. L. Hamilton - 8. M. Schumacher - 6. Verstappen - 4. Phelps - 7. Messi - 4. C. Ronaldo - 7. M. Carlsen - 5. Lebron - 9. S. Curry - 6 Some people are just lucky to be good at the things they love doing. The others have to be content with getting paid for the things that they're good at to pay for the things that they love doing.
    - Jataman606 4y ago
      Jimi Hendrix - 15.
    - ciceryadam 4y ago
      Andre Agassi wrote an autobiography, in it he explains that his father groomed him for tennis greatness by building a tennis court in their backyard, and by sending him to tennis boarding school. Agassi also said that he had always hated tennis during his career.

chrischen 4y ago

It’s very easy for the parents to manipulate the child into thinking it’s their own idea, whether through guilt or simply not knowing any better. The parents are in a much more powerful position psychologically and mentally. So even if you don’t force them beyond their immediate will you could be doing something negatively. I think the best way to decide what’s too much is to think about whether or not the child will, 20 years from now, write a blog post shaming and exposing their abuse inflicted upon them.

wahern 4y ago

> Music is a very "asian" or "chinese" thing to put your child through. Asian culture simply adopted American and English culture in this regard. In the United States circa 1950s and 1960s it was very common for children to be taking piano lessons, and owning a piano was also relatively common. Both the lessons and the piano itself were important status symbols, and having both were considered markers of being middle-class. My mother's side was middle-class Irish-Catholic and she and all her siblings had to take lessons; they also grew up with a piano in the home. By contrast, my fathers side was working-class Polish-German and both pianos and piano lessons were well out of reach--the family cleaned the church on weekends for reduced Catholic school tuition. But I think all 4 of my paternal aunts did have pianos in their homes as adults. So most of my cousins (all maternal, most paternal) grew up with pianos in their homes, though their parents were much less strict about lessons. My wife, who grew up in Malaysia, had the same experience as my mother. All of her grandparents were already middle-class (shop owners, professionals, etc), but old-world Chinese middle-class where status markers were making donations to religious and fraternal organizations or studying calligraphy. It was her parents generation that bought pianos and forced the kids to take lessons. And doing the same was important for both she and her brother. (I also appreciate the desire, it's just less of a parental priority for me.) The practice may be a little stickier in Asian culture (both in Asia and Asian diaspora) as the piano slotted into similar, pre-existing social customs which may remain more durable, but I think the overall arc is basically the same, just shifted up one or two generations.

bobthepanda 4y ago
as a second generation Chinese American, at least growing up it seemed like keeping up with the rest of the community, but it wasn't really so much about being middle class, but more about the kind of "so and so's child is a star tennis player, a pianist, the class president, speaks three languages, and they're probably going to get into Harvard and my child is going to need to keep up."
- TheAznestWhitey 4y ago
  Went to high school with the daughter of Chinese immigrants like that. Star tennis player, stellar pianist, 1st chair violinist in the city's youth orchestra, valedictorian, ivy league med school, doctor, etc... Some people are just built differently.

laurieg 4y ago

I think a lot about how much pushing is the right amount. When I was very young I had piano lessons. My memories are only dim, but I think I enjoyed them. I also gave them up quite quickly. I distinctly remember trying to play a little tune and messing it up again and again. I didn't have the skills to deal with my frustration and anger. I didn't have the perseverance. Perhaps if someone had helped me through this I could have persisted, or perhaps it was just too early for me and I needed some more life experience before I could handle it. When it comes down to it I think kids need lots of opportunities to try many things, as well as the experience of "going deep" on one thing. It doesn't really matter if it's dance, music, art, programming, languages or whatever. There's always the meta-game of skill acquisition going on. Learning that time, effort, consistent practice, thoughtful reflection are useful is the real goal. It's also worth remembering that children are unique people with unique personalities. They will all have different challenges and respond to the world around them in different ways.

cycomanic 4y ago
The way I handle this with my kids is that if they don't feel like going to some activity at some point I will try to give a bit of a push (sometimes it's more about leaving the current activity then going to the next). However, I make very sure they enjoy the activities. If my daughter say they want to stop generally we will stop immediately. I am quite lucky though, if anything they need to be held back a bit, my older sometimes complains that there are not enough days in the week because wants to try something more.
dwighttk 4y ago
The movie Whiplash looks into this question. It goes to the extreme, and while I never had anything like abuse in my school music career there were a few spots that made me think back. It is an intense movie, but I think well done.
- alexktz 4y ago
  My experience at music conservatory in England was very close to the bone on this movie. It was painful to watch in many ways, so in respect it’s well done and an accurate representation of the egotistical way things work in this world professionally. Most music colleges have a suicide garden because the pressure is so intense. A suicide garden for a place inhabited by mostly teenagers. Think about that for a sec. Ultimately I gave up on being a professional musician because I graduated in 2008, once you graduate you realise you’re competing against everyone else in the world and that’s much harder than just your peers, and IT reliable pay cheques were comfortable. I’m a happy hobby musician these days but it took me nearly a decade to start enjoying to play music again after the competitive rat race of music college.

powerapple 4y ago

a kid only wants to play video game all life, and what does he know what he wants anyway. I believe kids can learn anything, can go any direction without problem. The only issue is the teacher. A good teacher will make a kid enjoy something, a bad teacher will make a kid hate something. That's the only difference. A lot people are interested in the outcome, and does not spend too much time thinking about the process, that's the problem.

blitzar 4y ago

> This also brought back memories of me being required to play piano growing up Funnily enough, every friend brought up "working class", who had no access to music / sport etc is envious of my forced violin lessons, choir practice and sports after school all year round.

noneeeed 4y ago

We encourage our kids to do sport and music, but they choose which ones (and have both changed as they get older) and we stop if they are not enjoying it or getting something out of it. We are also careful about what teachers/schools they go to to avoid ones that are mills for competitions etc. some teachers are as bad as over competitive parents. The important thing is to encourage but listen to them. And to make it clear that they can just do it for fun.

tgv 4y ago

I'm the opposite (although I also watched Star Trek in my youth). My (Western) parents also got me to learn music, and I loved it. Still do. Not that I'm good: I've reached some intermediate difficulty level, but I really enjoy playing the classics, and discovering new music, as well as composing and mucking around with a computer and its incredible sound capabilities. Many like me wouldn't have found the wonderful gift of music, or would have found it very late in life if it hadn't been for our parents, so in a sense, I'm grateful for your offer. I do agree that one should stop making children do things once it's become obvious that they don't enjoy it. 12 years is too long.

nurettin 4y ago

I wish I was pushed as a child to play the piano. And I did it for my child. He endured it for a year. He's talented and he's at the beginner's level, but when we observed closely, he didn't want to practise. He only did it when we threatened him with stopping the lessons. So we just let it go. Now we have a piano at the house. He sometimes plays whatever he likes. Maybe he will pick it up later in his life. Maybe I will pick it up. All in all, I guess there is no one good way of raising a kid.

girvo 4y ago
My parents were similar (I played trombone, though I was terrible at it. Or I felt I was anyway). One interesting thing, is the thing I am best at, I had to sneak and scrape and fight tooth and nail to do, which was learn to program on our PC: the thing that is my life and career now two decades on. I've been programming my whole life, but all throughout my childhood my parents hated the idea of me spending my time on the computer tapping away at GameMaker v4 and work through QBasic and the C++ book a family friend gave me (I think I was using the Digital Mars compiler at the time?).
- piperswe 4y ago
  Same story here - my parents fought the uphill battle until they ran out of steam to try and get me to do anything else, but my career has basically shut them up on that now
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- redshirtrob 4y ago
  Hello there. That's eerily familiar. For me it was sports (although I was quite good at baseball and soccer) and Turbo Pascal. My parents, especially my Mom, put up a huge resistance to me programming. I had to promise to try out for the HS basketball team (easily my worst sport) to get a computer. I'd been cut the previous two years so of course I barely made the team that time. My Mom was convinced I was sitting in the computer room playing games. When I told her: "No, I was programming", she asked what I was programming. Of course I told her I was writing a game, as all kids learning to program were. She responded: "See! Games!" as though she'd somehow proven her point. But, like you, I've made my career from programming and it's treated me quite well for the most part.

nicolas_t 4y ago

That's something me and my wife struggle with now that we have a child. We both wish we had been pushed more when it comes to music lessons. So, we think we will try to get him to learn piano or an other instrument (except violin). However, we will most likely put a time limit, if after 3 years he still doesn't really like it, he can give it up. The idea, is that I think that for certain things like music, it only really become enjoyable once one has developed a certain amount of competence. So 3 years mean having enough basics so that our son can decide if he likes it or not.

harel 4y ago
Nudge is better than "push".
andris9 4y ago
My wife had this idea that we had our kids learn less-popular instruments. Viola instead of violin, harpsichord instead of piano. Playing piano is super competetive, you could put a lot of effort into it and still there are so many better players than you. In comparison the local harpsichord community is very happy to have a new member, everybody is supportive and it is much easier for the kids.
- nicolas_t 4y ago
  That's a good idea... One reason I mentioned piano is that as an adult I finally decided to learn piano and I guess at a young age seeing his dad try to also learn the same instrument might be more motivating... I do love the sound of harpsichord though :) But getting one at home is much harder whereas electronic pianos with good weighted keys are cheap and don't take so much space.
- Aidevah 4y ago
  Charles Rosen relayed this wonderful anecdote about the great musicologist Oliver Strunk (son of the William Strunk of Strunk & White fame); >His interests ranged over almost the whole of music, although his appreciation of the modern period may not have gone beyond Bartok. I remember he once told me that he used to own a harpsichord but had exchanged it for a piano, and when I asked why, he said that it was too difficult to sight-read the tone poems of Strauss at the harpsichord. The piano used to be the gateway to all sorts of music, both vocal, orchestral and chamber, via transcriptions. And enthusiasts would get to know pieces that are performed in concert by sight reading it on their piano at home beforehand. The harpsichord is less versatile than the piano in this regard. But then again the primary way of getting to know new music nowadays has been through recordings, and this has been the case for a very long time, so the practical deficiencies of the harpsichord compared to the piano may be less noticeable now. On the other hand, learning a continuo instrument like the harpsichord invariably involves some sort of training in improvised thoroughbass, which is an extremely valuable skill that is not found among pianists, so I think it's a pretty good choice in the end after all.

pronlover723 4y ago

There are tons of adults that are thankful their parents forced them to learn something (a second language, a musical instrument, ...). There are also tons of adults forever angry at themselves for complaining to the point their parents let them stop studying whatever "it" was. I learned Japanese as an adult. I know at least 3 Americans of Japanese descent angry at themselves for complaining to their parents to let them stop extra curricular Japanese classes as children. One was so angry I can't speak an Japanese around him because it just triggers his self loathing over this issue. I don't have an answer. My dad's side of the family were all professional musicians (though they had other jobs too). My dad never pushed me to play and basically said if I wanted to learn I'd have to push for lessons. Of course I was a kid and just wanted to play video games. I personally wish (or think I wish) they had pushed a little more.

seunosewa 4y ago
I think the answer is to let them try different things. There's going to be something that they like better than the others. If they keep begging you to stop making them do a thing, that's a clue that it's not the right one.
- pronlover723 4y ago
  When your 8yr old kid says they want to stop going go school and just stay at home and play video games to you let them? Or do you make them go to school? (most parents would make them go to school and many of the same parents that would force their kids to go to school are the same parents who say "don't force your kids to do stuff". I don't know where to draw the line but the fact that many parents are doing both suggests they really haven't applied any actual thought to why one is okay to force and the other is not.
- jstummbillig 4y ago
  In the beginning giving up early seems like no big deal to the parent. At some point they might get a little uneasy. Are you maybe inadvertently teaching your child that giving up is okay by giving in too early and often? On the flip side, being increasingly heavy handed about finally sticking with the current thing because you are also battling with your own sense of time getting short to teach persistence seems problematic. Tricky.

madaxe_again 4y ago

My curse was being good at pretty much anything I tried my hand at - and it lead my parents to constantly have enormous expectations of me. If I didn’t win the national competition for X, I was a miserable failure, and what would the other children and parents think. This even extended to ridiculous stuff like having me eat “advanced foods for his age”. Constant expectations of precociousness… which I was all too happy to fulfil. I wanted my eternally miserable mother to be happy. This was my entire childhood. If I wasn’t constantly overachieving, there were threats of having me institutionalised (I never really understood the threat, given that I was already being raised at boarding school, how much worse could an asylum be?), actual privations (I came second in the year in some exams once because I had to do them from bed with bronchitis, and went home at the end of term to find my bedroom had been turned into a parlour), and the general gaslighting (Mr Hart is a very nice man, he would never do that (he is now in prison)) of childhood. It was my mother, mainly, trying to make her own stunted and valueless life feel worthwhile. I forgive her, for she wasn’t much more than a child herself, and came from a small and terror-ridden world in the poverty of the decaying Scottish industrial heartland. She knew not what she did. She married a yuppie, an 80’s guy of the 70’s, and clambered onwards and upwards, putting on airs and graces you’d never think came from a girl who grew up in a trailer on a marsh next to a military base. I recall testing this hypothesis, that it was about her, not me, aged 11, when I was Shanghai’d into doing a production with the Chicago lyric - she’d been pimping me out as a boy soprano with an English accent in Chicagoland, and crap did it sell. I decided to not tell her. Kept it completely under wraps while I rehearsed, told her I was throwing rocks at birds or something to explain the time, which was far more believable. Show rolls around. She’s there, at the premiere, because she has to be seen at all of this stuff, always. She was FURIOUS - I don’t remember a more severe beating from my father - that I had shamed her in such a way, that I had let her down so richly. The thing she was upset about, of course, is that I’d made it rather hard for her to take the credit, as she’d had literally zero involvement and everyone knew it. We left Chicago a few months on, and I was removed from the school that had helped me go behind her back. I feel for Wil. It’s a tough thing to live with, the anger, the absolute fucking outrage at what was done to you, balanced with the fact that whether you like it or not you still love these damaged shitheads, and your seemingly never ending quest for understanding why. I understood, only in my late 30’s, the past few years, that none of it was my fault. I still haven’t entirely internalised that, maybe never will, but finding peace with my mother as just being the not terribly worldly or foresightful person that she is. I pity her hollowed out little life of gin and gardeners, but if it’s her crowning achievement, so be it, that’s her life to ruin. I got mine, mostly, back.

kibibyte 4y ago

Ooh, this definitely struck a chord in me, as I fall right into that stereotype. I was forced to play piano for 10 years and to do all those recitals and music theory tests. I could never wiggle myself out of it because of all the guilt-tripping. So of course, I went to college and promptly dropped all of it. And unexpectedly, nearly a decade later, this pandemic thing happened, I returned to piano, recently bought a digital piano, and found a teacher. I practice 1-2 hours every day. And a lot of those skills I thought I would have lost returned pretty quickly. I have a lot of complicated emotions around this that I haven’t really quite figured out. But if I were to summarize them at their current stage, they’d be something like: (1) I am grateful that I was pushed to learn this instrument, (2) I realized I really disliked my childhood piano teacher, (3) my parents failed to recognize that for 10 years (as evidenced by never presenting the option of finding someone else), and (4) playing to inflate someone else’s ego is absolutely demotivating. One of the unfortunate effects is that roughly 1/3rd of Mozart’s sonatas are unplayable because I have some bad memories associated with them. Fortunately, there’s plenty of music in the world that don’t trigger those feelings, and I am so glad that I didn’t play that much Chopin back then. Maybe that might help? I’m not a parent, so consider these raw ideas that need some work to become parenting advice.

coldtea 4y ago
>my parents failed to recognize that for 10 years (as evidenced by never presenting the option of finding someone else) Well, in this case tho, did you ever suggest it? I mean, if it was a matter of disliking the material or the teaching style, but otherwise those lessons weren't in bad form, abusive, etc., so they couldn't see anything bad about them, how would they know?
- mkl 4y ago
  (Not OP) I think it's pretty common for kids to not realise something's a problem, or to not realise there are other possibilities. Something happened to me as a kid that had a significant negative effect on my life, but I only understood that decades later, and no one else was aware of the problem at the time.

narag 4y ago

As I have young children of my own today, I'm faced with these questions. What is a healthy amount of pushing vs too much? What about not at all? The only thing they need to be good, not even best, is the studies that will enable them to work. Just help them if they're falling behind. Os support them if they seem to have a passion for something in particular. But otherwise, let them have a life.

kelnos 4y ago
I wrote about this in a sibling comment to yours, but I think kids should be pushed at least some amount. I wish I could play piano today, but I was too lazy/unfocused to practice as a kid, and so my mom canceled my lessons and I never learned. It's something I wish my mom had pushed me to do back then. Kids don't always know what's best for them, and they will sometimes take short-term satisfaction (not having to endure the monotony of deliberate practice) at the expense of long-term satisfaction (being able to play well after a time). That's not to say parents should always force the issue. Certainly sometimes the kid really is expressing a preference that should be honored. But not always.
- narag 4y ago
  Do you realize you can still learn to play? Maybe not to reach a professional level, but enough to enjoy yourself. I didn't "push" my son. I did teach him myself what I knew, for years. He can play with both hands and sing along. We visited one nearby conservatory where one of his friends was going to study and talk with some teachers. He finally decided to pass. Yes, he's been playing much more Minecraft than piano since then. But now he's finished his second Maths year with flying colors and we're both happy ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Kleto 4y ago
That just sounds lazy. Kids are not able to just learn or discover there world by themselves. I got a ton of influence from my parents and peers just not enough or relatively late. I was not able to just buy a PC and let an electrition install the internet. Suggesting music lessons and instruments is also pushing.

kelnos 4y ago

> What is a healthy amount of pushing vs too much? I think that's really hard to answer. I was in a sort of opposite situation as you were as a kid. My sister and I started piano lessons when I was 7 or 8 years old. They went on for a year and a half or so. Neither of us liked practicing. Our mom told us if we didn't practice, we wouldn't have lessons anymore. So... we didn't have lessons anymore. Today, I really wish I could play, and wish my parents had pushed us harder to stick with the lessons. But I could very easily see it going the other way (if not for piano, than for something else), with my sister and I being forced to do something we hated. So yeah, really hard to figure out where that balance is. In contrast, just a couple years later I started playing trumpet in school, and did stick with that, at least through college. I was quite good at it (not really to the point I could play professionally, but good enough to score well in local and regional amateur competitions). But it's kinda hard to play a loud brass instrument in apartment and condo buildings without making some angry neighbors. It's another reason why I wish I could play piano, since electric ones have volume controls and headphone jacks. Of course, obviously taking piano lessons is a much much much much more minor thing than being forced to be a child star and contemplating suicide...

gwd 4y ago

> As I have young children of my own today, I'm faced with these questions. What is a healthy amount of pushing vs too much? I don't need my kid to be the best at anything - I just don't want them to be lost/dead-in-the-water or unable to fend for themselves. If you read other things written by Wil Wheaton, you'll find (according to his description) that his parents had a very perverse relationship with each other, and used him as a pawn in whatever twisted relationship games they were playing. Neither one actually cared about him as a person. There was no way he was going to come out of a situation like that un-scarred. "Love covers a multitude of sins." Genuinely love your kids, and you won't go too far wrong. EDIT: From TFA: > It’s been clear for as long as I can remember that my mom and my dad don’t feel bad or anything about how much they hurt me, or how much their choices affected my life. My dad doesn’t care at all, and never did. Don't be like those guys, and your children won't end up like Wil.

fristechill 4y ago
Parents, love your children, as much as you can. Children, honour your parents, as much as you can. The alternative is resentment, a condition toxic enough to keep anyone in hell.
- noasaservice 4y ago
  - dang 4y ago
    Please don't post in the flamewar style to HN, regardless of how wrong someone's religion is or some parents are or you feel it/they are. Perhaps you don't owe bad religion or bad parents or bad internet comments better, but you owe this community better if you're participating in it. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: you've unfortunately been breaking the site guidelines quite a bit recently. Could you please not? We have to ban accounts that do that—because it's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for—and I don't want to ban you.

gsatic 4y ago

'Drill and kill' doesn't just work. It's a requirement to Learning. Most learning happens only through repeatition/practice. Get them comfortable with repeatition as early as possible and they will be fine.

tyleo 4y ago

“What is a healthy amount of pushing vs too much?” Is a great question. Some friends and I had fairly negative experiences with childhood activities (for me sports, for them music). However, as we reflect on them as adults we are quite happy that we were pushed into uncomfortable scenarios and “forced” to learn life long skills. Indeed, some of my friends argue that they wish they were pushed a bit harder. All that being said, the amount of “pushing” my friends and I experienced does not seem be irregular (like in the article). It does lead me to believe there is some “okay” amount of pushing. Does anyone have perspective on where they draw the line?

goodpoint 4y ago
No, it's not about the quantity of "pushing", it's about the quality. Is it warmly encouraging and being supportive or is emotional manipulation?

octobus2021 4y ago

I was made to study music (piano, singing, solfeggio) growing up. Basically robbed me of childhood - no free time (classes 6 days a week), no friends, constant pressure to do something I didn't want to. At 8th grade a just said I'm not going anymore and mom gave up. My kids are now involved in a lot of extracurriculars, including piano, but I'm trying to make sure they have life outside of school and activities. I think it's not all bad, it's a matter of balance you need to find as a parent.

soylentcola 4y ago

> Wow Will was such a part of my childhood watching Star Trek. Obviously, he didn't appear often but he was memorable simply because there were so few people as young as him on the show. Yeah, he's 5 years older than me, but I remember watching that show and daydreaming about how cool it would be to live on the Enterprise and how I would be best friends with Wesley Crusher. I know adults loved to rag on the character and (re-watching it as an adult) I can see where some of the criticism of how he was written comes from. But there were so many parts of that show that have not aged well, and the "token genius kid" is still one of the least annoying to me.

staticman2 4y ago
I think a problem with Wesley is he seems to have undeveloped social skills for his age (possibly due to a lack of peers his own age to interact with) but the lack of social skills doesn't seem to be intentional on the part of the writers, Wesley is just oddly written. As someone who struggled with socializing in school I think Wesley was a poor role model. As an adult rewatching it I don't care, I would just acknowledge how weird/ alien the human characters on the enterprise act.

BackBlast 4y ago

Pushing wasn't the problem here, at least not the primary one. It was a lack of love, understanding, and support from parents. He didn't feel heard, he didn't feel loved. His mother made it clear what her priority was, and it wasn't him. Will probably could have been an actor and had a loving supportive mother. At least it's possible. Plenty of children benefit from hard work with their families. When the relationships are toxic then that time becomes toxic probably along with the activity. When there's love, they may not do that thing forever, but they will not hate it like this. With my children, I encourage exploration of their skills, desires, and I've started them on paths towards lifelong careers from youngish ages (12-13). Which includes learning skills and testing things out. But I keep a keen ear open to their desires and an eye on their actual aptitudes and try really hard to match them up with useful work that they will like long term. I also try not to push so hard I kill the joy in the exploration and discovery while trying to keep expectations up and providing on-level material for them to level up at their own pace. Children want expectations. They need expectations. Just also fill their lives with love — especially active love involving your time and attention. So that they thoroughly know that they are loved and valued well above and beyond any of these things or activities, and it will generally go well.

Balgair 4y ago

> What is a healthy amount of pushing vs too much? David Epstein somewhat tackles this question in Range[0]. The issue come down to the type of 'learning environment' of the activity you are trying to get the kid into. 'Kind Learning Environments' are ones like golf or chess. The rules are clear, the feedback is rapid, standings are knowable, and the skills are uniform. For Kind learning environments, you just grind out the hours. Here you can use Gladwell's 10,000 hours to shine. 'Unkind Learning Environments' are ones like tennis, business, or poker. The rules are murky, the feedback is delayed, standings are at time undiscernible, and the skills are varied. For unkind learning environments, you have to graze on a lot of other disciplines to shine. Just grinding out the hours won't result in great results. Epstein specifically uses Ospedale della Pietà as an example of greatness in music. He says that concert musicians use the learning styles of Kind environments, while jazz musicians use Unkind styles. A great union of the Kind and Unkind was in Venice at Ospedale della Pietà where female orphans became some of the best classical musicians in history due to the unique factors at the orphanage. So the answer, per Epstein, to your question is that it depends (sorry!). Do you want an orchestra music playing child? Use the Kind learning environment techniques of grinding away 10,000 hours. Do you want a more jazz music playing child? Use the Unkind learning techniques of many other disciplines and getting through the 10,000 hours in fits and spurts. Epstein's book goes into waaaay better detail than my comment's haphazard and poorly remembered accounting. If you're serious about the question, I'd buy it and read it. [0] https://www.amazon.com/Range-Generalists-Triumph-Specialized-World/dp/0735214484 https://www.amazon.com/Range-Generalists-Triumph-Specialized... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ospedale_della_Piet%C3%A0 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ospedale_della_Piet%C3%A0

marklubi 4y ago
Thank you for the book recommendation. I haven’t read it yet, but from the description and your comment, it seems like it puts its finger right on something I’ve contemplated for years. The general ability to excel in a lot of different things, because of exposure to a variety of things, without necessarily being a 10,000 hour master in any of them, goes a long way. Particularly, being able to combine multiple aspects from multiple disciplines to solve a problem from a different perspective. Edit: To just expand my thoughts a bit further, I think it comes down to sometimes “you don’t know what you don’t know.” Being exposed to more things goes a long way.