8 ms·

> It is a multi-faceted problem with a lot of complexity It really is not. There are too many guns available, too easily obtained, to too many citizens who ha

> It is a multi-faceted problem with a lot of complexity It really is not. There are too many guns available, too easily obtained, to too many citizens who have not been properly indoctrinated with a sense of civic responsibility, let alone trained in the proper ways to handle a gun. The answer isn't to throw more guns at the problem or to blame inadequate mental health facilities. It is to reduce gun availability. And we aren't willing to do that because politicians on the right find it more valuable to demagogue on the subject as a wedge issue.

rco8786 4y ago
Basically this. No other country comes remotely close to the US on availability and ubiquity of guns.
- tomrod 4y ago
  Indeed. The causal model is simple and two factor: motivation, and access to firearms. If we reduced access to firearms, we can still work the motivation angle in a lot of ways, but have overall reduced gun violence. Other countries show that the offset increase in violence through other means would still be lower than current death rates.
- freediver 4y ago
  How does this explain the urge to kill innocent children? And where does it come from? It explains the means but not the motive. Uvalde shooter locked himself in a classroom than proceeded to kill 18 ten-year olds and their two teachers. Why?
  - bryans 4y ago
    Based on what previous school shooters have said over the years, the reasoning is somewhat simple and obvious. They experience trauma at a particular time in their life, and once they've mentally broke, the most personally "relevant" target for their anger is a group of people similar to those who either caused the original trauma or were present at the time but "did nothing to help." It doesn't matter that they're not the exact same people, because it's very rarely about revenge against specific individuals, but instead a way to exert control over a situation or space that they associate with their earlier trauma. https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/mass-shootings-in-america-interviews https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/mass-shootings-in-amer...
  - stackbutterflow 4y ago
    The urge may exist in some teenagers across the world. But they don't have the mean to. You can solve this problem either by fixing the urge to kill or make it impossible.
  - astine 4y ago
    If one in every thousand Americans has a unique and unexplained mental illness that compels them to violence, that would provide more than enough explanation for motives. It's even true for some famous shooters. [1],[2],[3] 1. https://news.yahoo.com/psychiatrist-colorado-movie-gunman-thought-mental-hold-might-024609685.html https://news.yahoo.com/psychiatrist-colorado-movie-gunman-th... 2. https://www.cnn.com/2013/11/25/justice/sandy-hook-shooting-report/ https://www.cnn.com/2013/11/25/justice/sandy-hook-shooting-r... 3. https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/107885790 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/107885790
  - scollet 4y ago
    Why and
mberning 4y ago
That’s like saying food availability is a core component in the obesity epidemic. I suppose there is some truth in that, but the solution it suggests is wholly inadequate.
- freediver 4y ago
  Very interesting angle. Where does the analogy take us?
- MajorBee 4y ago
  The availability of cheap, unhealthy junk food is very high, and that combined with the force multiplier that is poverty is a core component in the obesity epidemic. If you are to draw a parellel to the topic at hand, availability of cheap, easy to use (?) guns combined with the force multiplier of mental illness…
- kochikame 4y ago
  No, it's a good analogy. For example, it might make sense to restrict the availability of very high-calorie, low-nutrition foods like fast food, or tax them to raise their price and/or subsidize healthy food. It would make sense to educate people about nutrition and exercise and healthy eating. This kind of thinking could easily hold for the gun control conversation. Let people buy guns if they want, but not the really unnecessarily dangerous ones, and only one at a time. An 18 year old walks into your gun shop and wants to buy two powerful rifles. Why? What do you want them for? Why do you need two? These are valid questions.
rajin444 4y ago
> too easily obtained, to too many citizens who have not been properly indoctrinated with a sense of civic responsibility Banning guns is not the answer. Instilling that civic responsibility is - the benefits are astronomical.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Supermancho 4y ago
  It's believed that the US has 120 guns per 100 people and there are 7 guns per 100 people in Israel[1]. Israel has 10% of the number of gun-related-deaths (reported) that the US has, with some VERY heavy gun control laws - which routinely gets more strict[2]. What's interesting is that the number of people who take a shot at certain political figures is very low in the US, despite politics being so deeply concerning to so many adults. This feels like an adolescent/young-adult problem that's come to light. If there was a force like the Secret Service/FBI that cracked down on a WHIFF of threatening schools and the media coverage was blacked out for a month, we might see progress without getting mired in a gun control debate that won't be solved in our lifetime. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-r... [2] https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israel-s-new-public-security-minister-weighs-tightening-gun-license-applications-1.10023170?v=1635953170971 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israel-s-new-pu...
- xvector 4y ago
  Do you see school shootings happening in Europe? Banning guns is clearly the answer. There will always be psychopaths, and these people will not care about "civic responsibility." The only thing that can be done is to restrict their access to guns.
  - quantumwannabe 4y ago
    Yes. There are many school shootings in Europe. Here are several from recent years (not an exhaustive list): Germany: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erfurt_school_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erfurt_school_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emsdetten_school_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emsdetten_school_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnenden_school_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnenden_school_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heidelberg_University_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heidelberg_University_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coburg_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coburg_shooting Finland: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jokela_school_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jokela_school_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kauhajoki_school_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kauhajoki_school_shooting France: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39292755 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39292755 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toulouse_and_Montauban_shootings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toulouse_and_Montauban_shootin... Spain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcelona_school_killing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcelona_school_killing Estonia: https://www.wsj.com/articles/estonia-school-shooting-leaves-teacher-dead-1414424788 https://www.wsj.com/articles/estonia-school-shooting-leaves-... Greece: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OAED_Vocational_College_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OAED_Vocational_College_shooti... Hungary: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8380822.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8380822.stm Poland: https://tvn24.pl/tvn24-news-in-english/poland-two-wounded-including-11-year-old-in-school-shooting-ra939570-2311700 https://tvn24.pl/tvn24-news-in-english/poland-two-wounded-in... Netherlands: https://archive.ph/c6wva https://archive.ph/c6wva Ukraine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerch_Polytechnic_College_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerch_Polytechnic_College_mass... Russia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perm_State_University_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perm_State_University_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazan_school_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazan_school_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Moscow_school_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Moscow_school_shooting https://siberiantimes.com/other/others/news/three-wounded-in-college-shooting-incident-as-student-gunman-shouts-heil-hitler-before-killing-himself/ https://siberiantimes.com/other/others/news/three-wounded-in... Europe also has had the two deadliest mass shootings of all time: Bataclan (2015, 130 deaths) and Oslo (2011, 77 deaths).
ShivShankaran 4y ago
It's weird how the absolutely right answer is yours, as in, reduce the guns and take away the guns but almost all comments that talk about gun reduction is either downvoted to hell or flagged. if the supposedly intelligent HN can't arrive at the conclusion that reducing guns is the right answer since it was already successfully done by Canada and Australia then what chance do the rest of the US have? it's been instilled from their birth that will be born with and die with guns. No amount of persuasion will change their minds. It's absolutely 100% futile to argue with Americans that guns are the root of all evil. It's a fucking straight forward issue. Gun violence is increasing so reduce gun. Even for this linear problem every American is blaming everything else from Saturn in retrograde to bullying /mental health (as if its not an issue across the world) so aggravating.
- seoaeu 4y ago
  > if the supposedly intelligent HN can't arrive at the conclusion […] what chance do the rest of the US have? Honestly, probably not much worse odds. HN may be knowledgeable about computers, but there’s a big contingent here that doesn’t want to be told what to do, and doesn’t care whether other people get hurt in the process. And once you adopt that ideology, it is all downhill from there

rco8786 4y ago

Basically this. No other country comes remotely close to the US on availability and ubiquity of guns.

tomrod 4y ago
Indeed. The causal model is simple and two factor: motivation, and access to firearms. If we reduced access to firearms, we can still work the motivation angle in a lot of ways, but have overall reduced gun violence. Other countries show that the offset increase in violence through other means would still be lower than current death rates.
freediver 4y ago
How does this explain the urge to kill innocent children? And where does it come from? It explains the means but not the motive. Uvalde shooter locked himself in a classroom than proceeded to kill 18 ten-year olds and their two teachers. Why?
- bryans 4y ago
  Based on what previous school shooters have said over the years, the reasoning is somewhat simple and obvious. They experience trauma at a particular time in their life, and once they've mentally broke, the most personally "relevant" target for their anger is a group of people similar to those who either caused the original trauma or were present at the time but "did nothing to help." It doesn't matter that they're not the exact same people, because it's very rarely about revenge against specific individuals, but instead a way to exert control over a situation or space that they associate with their earlier trauma. https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/mass-shootings-in-america-interviews https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/mass-shootings-in-amer...
- stackbutterflow 4y ago
  The urge may exist in some teenagers across the world. But they don't have the mean to. You can solve this problem either by fixing the urge to kill or make it impossible.
- astine 4y ago
  If one in every thousand Americans has a unique and unexplained mental illness that compels them to violence, that would provide more than enough explanation for motives. It's even true for some famous shooters. [1],[2],[3] 1. https://news.yahoo.com/psychiatrist-colorado-movie-gunman-thought-mental-hold-might-024609685.html https://news.yahoo.com/psychiatrist-colorado-movie-gunman-th... 2. https://www.cnn.com/2013/11/25/justice/sandy-hook-shooting-report/ https://www.cnn.com/2013/11/25/justice/sandy-hook-shooting-r... 3. https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/107885790 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/107885790
- scollet 4y ago
  Why and

mberning 4y ago

That’s like saying food availability is a core component in the obesity epidemic. I suppose there is some truth in that, but the solution it suggests is wholly inadequate.

freediver 4y ago
Very interesting angle. Where does the analogy take us?
MajorBee 4y ago
The availability of cheap, unhealthy junk food is very high, and that combined with the force multiplier that is poverty is a core component in the obesity epidemic. If you are to draw a parellel to the topic at hand, availability of cheap, easy to use (?) guns combined with the force multiplier of mental illness…
kochikame 4y ago
No, it's a good analogy. For example, it might make sense to restrict the availability of very high-calorie, low-nutrition foods like fast food, or tax them to raise their price and/or subsidize healthy food. It would make sense to educate people about nutrition and exercise and healthy eating. This kind of thinking could easily hold for the gun control conversation. Let people buy guns if they want, but not the really unnecessarily dangerous ones, and only one at a time. An 18 year old walks into your gun shop and wants to buy two powerful rifles. Why? What do you want them for? Why do you need two? These are valid questions.

rajin444 4y ago

> too easily obtained, to too many citizens who have not been properly indoctrinated with a sense of civic responsibility Banning guns is not the answer. Instilling that civic responsibility is - the benefits are astronomical.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Supermancho 4y ago
It's believed that the US has 120 guns per 100 people and there are 7 guns per 100 people in Israel[1]. Israel has 10% of the number of gun-related-deaths (reported) that the US has, with some VERY heavy gun control laws - which routinely gets more strict[2]. What's interesting is that the number of people who take a shot at certain political figures is very low in the US, despite politics being so deeply concerning to so many adults. This feels like an adolescent/young-adult problem that's come to light. If there was a force like the Secret Service/FBI that cracked down on a WHIFF of threatening schools and the media coverage was blacked out for a month, we might see progress without getting mired in a gun control debate that won't be solved in our lifetime. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-r... [2] https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israel-s-new-public-security-minister-weighs-tightening-gun-license-applications-1.10023170?v=1635953170971 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israel-s-new-pu...
xvector 4y ago
Do you see school shootings happening in Europe? Banning guns is clearly the answer. There will always be psychopaths, and these people will not care about "civic responsibility." The only thing that can be done is to restrict their access to guns.
- quantumwannabe 4y ago
  Yes. There are many school shootings in Europe. Here are several from recent years (not an exhaustive list): Germany: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erfurt_school_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erfurt_school_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emsdetten_school_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emsdetten_school_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnenden_school_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnenden_school_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heidelberg_University_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heidelberg_University_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coburg_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coburg_shooting Finland: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jokela_school_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jokela_school_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kauhajoki_school_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kauhajoki_school_shooting France: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39292755 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39292755 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toulouse_and_Montauban_shootings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toulouse_and_Montauban_shootin... Spain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcelona_school_killing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcelona_school_killing Estonia: https://www.wsj.com/articles/estonia-school-shooting-leaves-teacher-dead-1414424788 https://www.wsj.com/articles/estonia-school-shooting-leaves-... Greece: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OAED_Vocational_College_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OAED_Vocational_College_shooti... Hungary: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8380822.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8380822.stm Poland: https://tvn24.pl/tvn24-news-in-english/poland-two-wounded-including-11-year-old-in-school-shooting-ra939570-2311700 https://tvn24.pl/tvn24-news-in-english/poland-two-wounded-in... Netherlands: https://archive.ph/c6wva https://archive.ph/c6wva Ukraine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerch_Polytechnic_College_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerch_Polytechnic_College_mass... Russia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perm_State_University_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perm_State_University_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazan_school_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazan_school_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Moscow_school_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Moscow_school_shooting https://siberiantimes.com/other/others/news/three-wounded-in-college-shooting-incident-as-student-gunman-shouts-heil-hitler-before-killing-himself/ https://siberiantimes.com/other/others/news/three-wounded-in... Europe also has had the two deadliest mass shootings of all time: Bataclan (2015, 130 deaths) and Oslo (2011, 77 deaths).

ShivShankaran 4y ago

It's weird how the absolutely right answer is yours, as in, reduce the guns and take away the guns but almost all comments that talk about gun reduction is either downvoted to hell or flagged. if the supposedly intelligent HN can't arrive at the conclusion that reducing guns is the right answer since it was already successfully done by Canada and Australia then what chance do the rest of the US have? it's been instilled from their birth that will be born with and die with guns. No amount of persuasion will change their minds. It's absolutely 100% futile to argue with Americans that guns are the root of all evil. It's a fucking straight forward issue. Gun violence is increasing so reduce gun. Even for this linear problem every American is blaming everything else from Saturn in retrograde to bullying /mental health (as if its not an issue across the world) so aggravating.

seoaeu 4y ago
> if the supposedly intelligent HN can't arrive at the conclusion […] what chance do the rest of the US have? Honestly, probably not much worse odds. HN may be knowledgeable about computers, but there’s a big contingent here that doesn’t want to be told what to do, and doesn’t care whether other people get hurt in the process. And once you adopt that ideology, it is all downhill from there