5 ms·

He's not wrong.

by bifrost 4y ago

He's not wrong.

stefan_ 4y ago
The kids that find a gun and shoot their siblings, parents or themselves are mentally ill?
- nathanaldensr 4y ago
  That's not a crime, it's an accident.
  - stefan_ 4y ago
    No, kids being able to access a gun and ammunition is in fact a crime. But nice try - we do the same thing with car crashes, the 2nd prominent killer of adolescents, and predictably we do nothing beyond calling them accidents.
- SoftTalker 4y ago
  That's not a gun crime (at least on the part of the kid) it's an accident. Kids die in accidents, it's a very sad reality. It might well be negligence on the part of the parents or whomever let the kid gain access to the gun though.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
KerrAvon 4y ago
https://www.salon.com/2022/05/25/you-are-doing-nothing-erupt-after-beto-orourke-interrupts-texas-gov-greg-abbott/ https://www.salon.com/2022/05/25/you-are-doing-nothing-erupt... "These massacres are not natural disasters, acts of God, or random. They are totally predictable, direct consequences of the choices made by Greg Abbott and the majority of those in the Texas legislature," O'Rourke wrote to supporters in a Wednesday email.
- whatshisface 4y ago
  Something can be random and also preventable.
  - bifrost 4y ago
    Its true. Texas had a plan in to spruce up school safety, they just didn't go forward with it, its pretty sad. I read through it, it looked like it would be very effective. Luckily first responders neutralized the shooter otherwise more kids would've died.
    - WillPostForFood 4y ago
      All the details aren't in, but this case apparently involved a police chase that led to the school, a school resource officer was present and wasn't able to stop the shooter from entering the school (nor were the pursuing police officers). The first responders called for help, and a Border Patrol agent came to the scene, ran in alone and killed the shooter.
      - throwaway662577 4y ago
        > … and a Border Patrol agent came to the scene, ran in alone and killed the shooter. Note that Border Patrol Tactical Unit (Bortac) agents were the ones who confronted and shot the shooter. They aren’t your run of the mill agents and they also ignored the others waiting for backup and went in before backup arrived. I wouldn’t be surprised if they were former military with downrange exposure. Lots of people criticize police in these situations waiting for backup, but the reality is a real firefight your first time is fucking terrifying, even when you outnumber the shooter. Paralysis in these situations that are more similar to urban combat than daily police work is expected.
    - jkestner 4y ago
      This school has in fact more than doubled their security spending in the last five years, including hiring their own security force, for what good that did them. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-security-plan-rcna30568 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/uvalde-texas-school-sho... I think we need something other than “sprucing up” school safety. Only trying to stop the shooters at the point of attack is pathetically ineffective. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2776515 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle...
smt88 4y ago
He is absolutely, 100% wrong. It may be true for mass shootings, but not for overall gun violence. A lot of gun deaths are suicides. Those are mental illness. But there are categories that are just idiots with guns, like people who get into fights outside bars. There are also a surprising number of men who murder a woman who is pregnant with their child because they don't want the baby to be born. Sometimes murder is just murder and there is no diagnosis. Not all aberrations in society are mental illness.
- kube-system 4y ago
  I think there’s a reasonable non-chronic meaning to the word “health” as well. Like in the way someone might “take a mental health day” off of work. Someone doesn’t have to be diagnosable to be in an unhealthy mindset.
- prawn 4y ago
  And an element of desperation or poor impulse control (hormones raging in teenagers, etc).
jasonhansel 4y ago
"Being a violent criminal" is not a mental disorder; most people who commit acts of violence do not have any diagnosable mental health issues. Only a small minority (3-5%) of acts of violence are attributable to mental illness: https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/2015/10/1/18000532/gun-violence-mental-illness https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/2015/10/1/18000532/gun-viol... edit: Even most mass shooters are not mentally ill: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/most-mass-shooters-arent-mentally-ill-so-why-push-better-treatment-as-the-answer/2016/05/17/70034918-1308-11e6-8967-7ac733c56f12_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/most-mass-shooters-aren...
- astrange 4y ago
  This is a very popular statement on the twitter and all, but I think it comes from their need to support marginalized people, which ends up requiring mental illnesses to make you more virtuous and never less. So then you have to go around saying that serial killers are the most healthy people there can be and 100% rational. Surely this is a mistake? Of course we have mental illnesses that describe things like this, like "antisocial personality disorder". If anything, all we need to do is invent "wants to shoot people personality disorder".
  - jasonhansel 4y ago
    They're evil, vicious, and morally reprehensible. They're not (in general) mentally ill.
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      This is just semantics around the definition of mentally ill. You can move away from it and ask what is unique about the mental state where someone wants to shoot children and follows through on it. You can ask if this mental state is preventable.
      - guerrilla 4y ago
        Mental illness isn't about general states and conseqncues but suffering and disability to the patient, like all illness.
netsharc 4y ago
Sure, people who are mentally stable don't usually tend to kill other people, but where else in the world (or modern world) can people with mental illnesses easily acquire guns? Ah, only in the Land of the Free!(TM)
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
tomrod 4y ago
Yes he is. Cops sometimes have to shoot people. Gun owners occasionally shoot in self defense. They are not mentally ill.
- Supermancho 4y ago
  > Gun owners occasionally shoot in self defense. They are not mentally ill. Then that's not a gun crime and definitely outside the realm of the 1 sentence context. This is why these discussions seem to go back and forth. Wild swings of intentional ignorance, as to what the discussion is about, after having already made up their minds.
  - tomrod 4y ago
    It certainly can be a gun crime depending on their locale and circumstances.
scollet 4y ago
Of all the people in Texas, Abbott is likely in the top 10 of most wrong.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
So the entire US military, who's training is heavily geared toward shooting people and many of who's members have done exactly that, are all mentally ill? Don't get me wrong, I think there is a case to be made that they might be, but good luck being a conservative politician who says all veterans are mentally ill.

He's not wrong.

stefan_ 4y ago

The kids that find a gun and shoot their siblings, parents or themselves are mentally ill?

nathanaldensr 4y ago
That's not a crime, it's an accident.
- stefan_ 4y ago
  No, kids being able to access a gun and ammunition is in fact a crime. But nice try - we do the same thing with car crashes, the 2nd prominent killer of adolescents, and predictably we do nothing beyond calling them accidents.
SoftTalker 4y ago
That's not a gun crime (at least on the part of the kid) it's an accident. Kids die in accidents, it's a very sad reality. It might well be negligence on the part of the parents or whomever let the kid gain access to the gun though.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

KerrAvon 4y ago

https://www.salon.com/2022/05/25/you-are-doing-nothing-erupt-after-beto-orourke-interrupts-texas-gov-greg-abbott/ https://www.salon.com/2022/05/25/you-are-doing-nothing-erupt... "These massacres are not natural disasters, acts of God, or random. They are totally predictable, direct consequences of the choices made by Greg Abbott and the majority of those in the Texas legislature," O'Rourke wrote to supporters in a Wednesday email.

whatshisface 4y ago
Something can be random and also preventable.
- bifrost 4y ago
  Its true. Texas had a plan in to spruce up school safety, they just didn't go forward with it, its pretty sad. I read through it, it looked like it would be very effective. Luckily first responders neutralized the shooter otherwise more kids would've died.
  - WillPostForFood 4y ago
    All the details aren't in, but this case apparently involved a police chase that led to the school, a school resource officer was present and wasn't able to stop the shooter from entering the school (nor were the pursuing police officers). The first responders called for help, and a Border Patrol agent came to the scene, ran in alone and killed the shooter.
    - throwaway662577 4y ago
      > … and a Border Patrol agent came to the scene, ran in alone and killed the shooter. Note that Border Patrol Tactical Unit (Bortac) agents were the ones who confronted and shot the shooter. They aren’t your run of the mill agents and they also ignored the others waiting for backup and went in before backup arrived. I wouldn’t be surprised if they were former military with downrange exposure. Lots of people criticize police in these situations waiting for backup, but the reality is a real firefight your first time is fucking terrifying, even when you outnumber the shooter. Paralysis in these situations that are more similar to urban combat than daily police work is expected.
  - jkestner 4y ago
    This school has in fact more than doubled their security spending in the last five years, including hiring their own security force, for what good that did them. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-security-plan-rcna30568 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/uvalde-texas-school-sho... I think we need something other than “sprucing up” school safety. Only trying to stop the shooters at the point of attack is pathetically ineffective. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2776515 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle...

smt88 4y ago

He is absolutely, 100% wrong. It may be true for mass shootings, but not for overall gun violence. A lot of gun deaths are suicides. Those are mental illness. But there are categories that are just idiots with guns, like people who get into fights outside bars. There are also a surprising number of men who murder a woman who is pregnant with their child because they don't want the baby to be born. Sometimes murder is just murder and there is no diagnosis. Not all aberrations in society are mental illness.

kube-system 4y ago
I think there’s a reasonable non-chronic meaning to the word “health” as well. Like in the way someone might “take a mental health day” off of work. Someone doesn’t have to be diagnosable to be in an unhealthy mindset.
prawn 4y ago
And an element of desperation or poor impulse control (hormones raging in teenagers, etc).

jasonhansel 4y ago

"Being a violent criminal" is not a mental disorder; most people who commit acts of violence do not have any diagnosable mental health issues. Only a small minority (3-5%) of acts of violence are attributable to mental illness: https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/2015/10/1/18000532/gun-violence-mental-illness https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/2015/10/1/18000532/gun-viol... edit: Even most mass shooters are not mentally ill: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/most-mass-shooters-arent-mentally-ill-so-why-push-better-treatment-as-the-answer/2016/05/17/70034918-1308-11e6-8967-7ac733c56f12_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/most-mass-shooters-aren...

astrange 4y ago
This is a very popular statement on the twitter and all, but I think it comes from their need to support marginalized people, which ends up requiring mental illnesses to make you more virtuous and never less. So then you have to go around saying that serial killers are the most healthy people there can be and 100% rational. Surely this is a mistake? Of course we have mental illnesses that describe things like this, like "antisocial personality disorder". If anything, all we need to do is invent "wants to shoot people personality disorder".
- jasonhansel 4y ago
  They're evil, vicious, and morally reprehensible. They're not (in general) mentally ill.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    This is just semantics around the definition of mentally ill. You can move away from it and ask what is unique about the mental state where someone wants to shoot children and follows through on it. You can ask if this mental state is preventable.
    - guerrilla 4y ago
      Mental illness isn't about general states and conseqncues but suffering and disability to the patient, like all illness.

netsharc 4y ago

Sure, people who are mentally stable don't usually tend to kill other people, but where else in the world (or modern world) can people with mental illnesses easily acquire guns? Ah, only in the Land of the Free!(TM)

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

tomrod 4y ago

Yes he is. Cops sometimes have to shoot people. Gun owners occasionally shoot in self defense. They are not mentally ill.

Supermancho 4y ago
> Gun owners occasionally shoot in self defense. They are not mentally ill. Then that's not a gun crime and definitely outside the realm of the 1 sentence context. This is why these discussions seem to go back and forth. Wild swings of intentional ignorance, as to what the discussion is about, after having already made up their minds.
- tomrod 4y ago
  It certainly can be a gun crime depending on their locale and circumstances.

scollet 4y ago

Of all the people in Texas, Abbott is likely in the top 10 of most wrong.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago

So the entire US military, who's training is heavily geared toward shooting people and many of who's members have done exactly that, are all mentally ill? Don't get me wrong, I think there is a case to be made that they might be, but good luck being a conservative politician who says all veterans are mentally ill.