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> I suppose this allows for more frequent updates, but in my experience it just leads to more bugs and more painful factory updates. What is allows for is: cos

by izacus 4y ago

> I suppose this allows for more frequent updates, but in my experience it just leads to more bugs and more painful factory updates. What is allows for is: cost cutting. Not having to install a mask, a button, wire harness and QA everything is a massive manufacturing cost saving. It speeds up production and lowers the amount of components that need to be sourced, installed and later made available for replacement as part of a service. This is the same situation as with Electron apps - the savings aren't for YOU the USER, the savings are for person MAKING the thing. They get all the benefit at the cost of your user experience.

0xdeadbeefbabe 4y ago
They get the cost of a costly user experience, which isn't nothing.
lostgame 4y ago
>> This is the same situation as with Electron apps - the savings aren't for YOU the USER, the savings are for person MAKING the thing. They get all the benefit at the cost of your user experience. I hate Electron as much as the next average HN user, but isn't the benefit of Electron actually kinda for the user as well as the developer, in the sense that Electron is basically a one-stop shop for porting to other platforms? For instance, Microsoft Teams is written in Electron. This means the application is pretty damn well identical whether users within my company are using Windows or Mac computers. There are advantages to that. I'd say for myself, Unity is a great example of where, basically; if I went 'native', I would really only be supporting one platform, like I used to when I did game dev in the late 90's and early 00's. But Unity gives me the power to flip a switch, and then all my friends can play pretty much the same copy of my game on any platform of their choosing. It also means if there are bugs on one platform, they usually show up on another as well; making QE and addressing bugs a little bit easier, making for a better user experience. Not a fan of Electron, just saying that there are benefits to the user for using such a system.
- basisword 4y ago
  >> This means the application is pretty damn well identical whether users within my company are using Windows or Mac computers. There are advantages to that. Disadvantages too. Unlike a website, I want the software on my computer to take advantage of the native UI and other features unique to the OS. If Electron didn't exist MS would still build teams for multiple platforms. It would disadvantage small developers but the majority of users (who use well known software developed by large companies) lose out on the prior mentioned benefits thanks to Electrons existence.
m463 4y ago
I always hope these kinds of situations would lead to a market opportunity for someone to come in and do it right... but it rarely does.
- Spivak 4y ago
  You can't create a market opportunity for something without it being a differentiating feature. 2022 Honda Civic but with physical buttons probably doesn't move the needle because car buyers are price sensitive and because 2022 Honda Civic with screen is still better than alternatives.
  - Pasorrijer 4y ago
    Funny you should mention the Honda Civic... I had a 2017 Honda Civic Hatchback. First year of the new model design, it had a touch sensitive volume control... After that, I think it was the 2019 and up all Honda's came with a volume knob AS A DIFFERENTIATOR because the UX was so bad without it.
    - Spivak 4y ago
      Right but that's a different market force! Customer feedback is really effective at redressing provably bad UX but it's a lot harder for that same change to happen in response to a competing manufacturer because in aggregate such a small thing isn't enough to get someone to switch away from Honda entirely.
      - Pasorrijer 4y ago
        I mean, it's the driving cause behind me selling the car and moving to a VW...
- CogitoCogito 4y ago
  I think what really is needed is for these displays and interfaces to be replaceable like old car stereo decks.
zepearl 4y ago
> What is allows for is: cost cutting. Not having to install a mask, a button, wire harness and QA everything is a massive manufacturing cost saving. It speeds up production and lowers the amount of components that need to be sourced, installed and later made available for replacement as part of a service. I tend to have the same opinion, but at the same time I'm not convinced: - I bought 1 year ago a new car for 80k $ => that's not cheap and in my opinion putting 4 extra buttons (up/down) or 2 extra knobs to control the temperature of the two front seats wouldn't have been an incredible engineering challenge that would have added hundreds of $ to the cost (which was anyway high). - we have ~100 buttons that all work reliably on our keyboards, which are connected to our PCs/notebooks with just a single cable => I admit that in a car there is the extra challenge of temperature variance (car parked in the Sahara or somewhere in Iceland), but I cannot think that that's an engineering wonder (worked fine during the last 100 years). Therefore maybe the trend is driven by designers: make everything shiny & slick, risk of having the own work thrown into the trash when taking a step back to do usability tests vs. physical controls so let's just forget about that.
- joe_the_user 4y ago
  we have ~100 buttons that all work reliably on our keyboards, which are connected to our PCs/notebooks with just a single cable => I admit that in a car there is the extra challenge of temperature variance I wanted to mention that. Sure, the way auto electronics were traditionally installed was expensive but a keyboard is $20 by itself, a midi music keyboard designed for wear and having buttons and knobs is ~$150. A modular system of instruments and controls that fits around the steering wheel and has a single cable coming out could not be that expensive. Changing to something like would require a lot of adjustment of electronics processes - different chips and voltages to allow the modularity and single cable, I would guess. But touch-screens also need this I would imagine.
  - StillBored 4y ago
    The US backup camera fiasco was informative, because IIRC one of the domestic auto manufactures testified it was going to add $800 or some such to the price of a car (can't find a link about it). Which back then was still like 3x or so the cost of an aftermarket system. The law passed anyway, and for years its remained a high priced option, until there were lawsuits about the feds failing to enforce the law and require all cars to have them. There are various links on the web about how even the NHTSA estimated it would be ~$40 added to the price of a new car, something many found high considering the costs of the cameras and how many cars already had LCDs that could be repurposed. Although I suspect the addition of backup cameras has given automakers excuses when it comes to rear visibility.
stjohnswarts 4y ago
Yep, it also gives a rather encompassing single failure point that will be very hard to replace and very expensive >10 years. Possibly more than the car is even worth at that point in time.
warble 4y ago
But it's not cheaper. And the car companies make money off aftermarket parts. QA just moves to software, so you're not saving anything there either. Plus so far, screens are less reliable than analog controls, so instead of replacing a cheap knob, you're replacing a top quality screen with special manufacturing requirements due to the environment of the car cabin.

by izacus 4y ago

0xdeadbeefbabe 4y ago

They get the cost of a costly user experience, which isn't nothing.

lostgame 4y ago

>> This is the same situation as with Electron apps - the savings aren't for YOU the USER, the savings are for person MAKING the thing. They get all the benefit at the cost of your user experience. I hate Electron as much as the next average HN user, but isn't the benefit of Electron actually kinda for the user as well as the developer, in the sense that Electron is basically a one-stop shop for porting to other platforms? For instance, Microsoft Teams is written in Electron. This means the application is pretty damn well identical whether users within my company are using Windows or Mac computers. There are advantages to that. I'd say for myself, Unity is a great example of where, basically; if I went 'native', I would really only be supporting one platform, like I used to when I did game dev in the late 90's and early 00's. But Unity gives me the power to flip a switch, and then all my friends can play pretty much the same copy of my game on any platform of their choosing. It also means if there are bugs on one platform, they usually show up on another as well; making QE and addressing bugs a little bit easier, making for a better user experience. Not a fan of Electron, just saying that there are benefits to the user for using such a system.

basisword 4y ago
>> This means the application is pretty damn well identical whether users within my company are using Windows or Mac computers. There are advantages to that. Disadvantages too. Unlike a website, I want the software on my computer to take advantage of the native UI and other features unique to the OS. If Electron didn't exist MS would still build teams for multiple platforms. It would disadvantage small developers but the majority of users (who use well known software developed by large companies) lose out on the prior mentioned benefits thanks to Electrons existence.

m463 4y ago

I always hope these kinds of situations would lead to a market opportunity for someone to come in and do it right... but it rarely does.

Spivak 4y ago
You can't create a market opportunity for something without it being a differentiating feature. 2022 Honda Civic but with physical buttons probably doesn't move the needle because car buyers are price sensitive and because 2022 Honda Civic with screen is still better than alternatives.
- Pasorrijer 4y ago
  Funny you should mention the Honda Civic... I had a 2017 Honda Civic Hatchback. First year of the new model design, it had a touch sensitive volume control... After that, I think it was the 2019 and up all Honda's came with a volume knob AS A DIFFERENTIATOR because the UX was so bad without it.
  - Spivak 4y ago
    Right but that's a different market force! Customer feedback is really effective at redressing provably bad UX but it's a lot harder for that same change to happen in response to a competing manufacturer because in aggregate such a small thing isn't enough to get someone to switch away from Honda entirely.
    - Pasorrijer 4y ago
      I mean, it's the driving cause behind me selling the car and moving to a VW...
CogitoCogito 4y ago
I think what really is needed is for these displays and interfaces to be replaceable like old car stereo decks.

zepearl 4y ago

> What is allows for is: cost cutting. Not having to install a mask, a button, wire harness and QA everything is a massive manufacturing cost saving. It speeds up production and lowers the amount of components that need to be sourced, installed and later made available for replacement as part of a service. I tend to have the same opinion, but at the same time I'm not convinced: - I bought 1 year ago a new car for 80k $ => that's not cheap and in my opinion putting 4 extra buttons (up/down) or 2 extra knobs to control the temperature of the two front seats wouldn't have been an incredible engineering challenge that would have added hundreds of $ to the cost (which was anyway high). - we have ~100 buttons that all work reliably on our keyboards, which are connected to our PCs/notebooks with just a single cable => I admit that in a car there is the extra challenge of temperature variance (car parked in the Sahara or somewhere in Iceland), but I cannot think that that's an engineering wonder (worked fine during the last 100 years). Therefore maybe the trend is driven by designers: make everything shiny & slick, risk of having the own work thrown into the trash when taking a step back to do usability tests vs. physical controls so let's just forget about that.

joe_the_user 4y ago
we have ~100 buttons that all work reliably on our keyboards, which are connected to our PCs/notebooks with just a single cable => I admit that in a car there is the extra challenge of temperature variance I wanted to mention that. Sure, the way auto electronics were traditionally installed was expensive but a keyboard is $20 by itself, a midi music keyboard designed for wear and having buttons and knobs is ~$150. A modular system of instruments and controls that fits around the steering wheel and has a single cable coming out could not be that expensive. Changing to something like would require a lot of adjustment of electronics processes - different chips and voltages to allow the modularity and single cable, I would guess. But touch-screens also need this I would imagine.
- StillBored 4y ago
  The US backup camera fiasco was informative, because IIRC one of the domestic auto manufactures testified it was going to add $800 or some such to the price of a car (can't find a link about it). Which back then was still like 3x or so the cost of an aftermarket system. The law passed anyway, and for years its remained a high priced option, until there were lawsuits about the feds failing to enforce the law and require all cars to have them. There are various links on the web about how even the NHTSA estimated it would be ~$40 added to the price of a new car, something many found high considering the costs of the cameras and how many cars already had LCDs that could be repurposed. Although I suspect the addition of backup cameras has given automakers excuses when it comes to rear visibility.

stjohnswarts 4y ago

Yep, it also gives a rather encompassing single failure point that will be very hard to replace and very expensive >10 years. Possibly more than the car is even worth at that point in time.

warble 4y ago

But it's not cheaper. And the car companies make money off aftermarket parts. QA just moves to software, so you're not saving anything there either. Plus so far, screens are less reliable than analog controls, so instead of replacing a cheap knob, you're replacing a top quality screen with special manufacturing requirements due to the environment of the car cabin.