8 ms·

Here in Norway, we don't have any credit score in that sense. Rather, we have sort of a "credit history" system, which shows the following: -When there's been

Here in Norway, we don't have any credit score in that sense. Rather, we have sort of a "credit history" system, which shows the following: -When there's been registered wage garnishment (by court) against you. -When there's been registered a lien against your property. -When you've entered a court-ordered debt payment program. -When you've been registered as bankrupt. And by law, these things have to be deleted when you've settled your debt. In any case, it's difficult to get those things by accident. Usually you're at the end of the process, and have been through civil court. With that said - it should be mentioned that Norway is a INCREDIBLY creditor friendly country, as far as the law goes. If a creditor really want their money back, they can / will take you to court, and eventually get a garnishment on your wage or welfare money. Or property/vehicles/personal belongings lien if you don't have any income. I like the system as it is. I really don't like the idea of constantly having to do things with respect to a credit score - and I'm not talking about gaming the system or being a deadbeat, but trying to maximize my credit score for the sake of keeping it high.

sgjohnson 4y ago
> trying to maximize my credit score for the sake of keeping it high. Just being a deadbeat will do exactly that. It takes 0 effort. Put your purchases on a credit card, and settle it in full every month.
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  > Put your purchases on a credit card, and settle it in full every month. If you don't need credit then taking on credit is an extra thing to manage. I personally like all my spending being on my debit card and coming out of my account so I have a single balance that reflects how much money I have. I don't want to deal with an extra company especially when their business model ultimately relies on trying to get me to miss a payment so they can charge fees/interest.
  - maxerickson 4y ago
    Their business model is a 1 to 3 percent fee on every transaction they are involved in. My credit card company sends me a notification when a statement is ready and another friendly reminder a week before the bill is due. They make money on interest also, but they would rather have someone that spends and pays off a lot than someone that carries a modest balance.
    - Nextgrid 4y ago
      > Their business model is a 1 to 3 percent fee on every transaction they are involved in. In Europe and the UK, interchange is capped to a level that wouldn't support running a financial institution. > They make money on interest also Interest only gets charged a month after (at least on most UK credit cards), so if you're using it "the right way" and paying it off every month you will never incur any interest. It's good for you but ultimately proves that credit card providers rely on the (generally less financially-savvy) people who don't/can't use it "the right way" and incur interest or fees. That's honestly a pretty predatory business model I have no interest in supporting. > My credit card company sends me a notification when a statement is ready and another friendly reminder a week before the bill is due. True but why should I even statements and bills for spending what is my money in the first place? My argument is that you should only use a credit card when you actually need credit and not to merely game a broken system.
      - maxerickson 4y ago
        The article is about North American credit scores, so I guess it isn't completely ridiculous to assume that if it is unstated. Does your bank not have a system showing you what transactions you did in a month? The credit card statement is the same thing, for a different account.
      - sgjohnson 4y ago
        > My argument is that you should only use a credit card when you actually need credit and not to merely game a broken system. Credit cards are literally the dumbest way to borrow money, second only to payday loans. So you definitely shouldn't use them when you _actually need credit_. But you should use them to build up your credit score, so you can get extremely cheap credit when you actually need it.
  - 2rsf 4y ago
    That. I was addicted to credit cards and small payments but now I pay everything debit, cash in other words, and life became much more simple and predictable
  - is0tope 4y ago
    While I see your logic, ultimately using a credit card makes a lot of sense as long as you pay it off on time. Not only do you get the (small) benefits of the cashback or points, but you have added fraud protection also. Not sure how it is where you are, but where I am the payment is automatically done every month from your bank account. There is 0 chance of missing a payment, as long as you have a sufficiently positive floating balance in your account. If someone do not, then I would question their suitability for a credit card in the first place.
    - bee_rider 4y ago
      These companies are making money somehow. If they are exploiting people more clever than me, then I'll probably fall for it too. If they are exploiting people less clever than me, seems pretty evil, I don't want anything to do with that.
      - CPLX 4y ago
        How they are making money isn't a secret. They take a percentage of the transaction from the merchant you pay every time you make a charge. It's effectively free from your perspective, the merchant is willing to share some of your money to allow you the convenience of paying by card.
    - steelframe 4y ago
      > you have added fraud protection also My bank provides fraud protection for my debit card. A card for my account got skimmed and was used to withdraw cash from an ATM. Got my money back with a single phone call to report the fraudulent activity.
    - Nextgrid 4y ago
      > Not only do you get the (small) benefits of the cashback or points Maybe in the US - in Europe where interchange is capped, credit card rewards aren't worth it. Not to mention, I like my privacy and don't want to deal with any rewards or offers programs anyway. > but you have added fraud protection also. In practice, all the fraud I've been victim of always fit within the card networks' dispute resolution rules. The only time I can think of this being necessary is airlines that go bust (where a card network dispute would technically succeed but fails because there's literally no money to claim back anymore). > where I am the payment is automatically done every month from your bank account. There is 0 chance of missing a payment, as long as you have a sufficiently positive floating balance in your account. If someone do not, then I would question their suitability for a credit card in the first place. See my other comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31504046 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31504046
  - EliRivers 4y ago
    Do you not have an option to just automatically have the full amount paid off from your account every month? I've never had to do anything involving paying a credit card; on getting the card, I tell them to just take the full amount every month from my bank and that's what happens until years later for whatever reason I cancel the card. They might well like me to miss a payment so they can charge me interest, but it's never going to happen. This is a genuine question; I know that other countries do things differently. Is that not an option where you are?
    - Nextgrid 4y ago
      It does, but that payment takes several days to clear and messes up your bank's analytics. I use a modern bank that gives me a real-time overview of my spending and categories it, but this all goes out the window if all your spending is on a credit card and the only thing your bank sees is a single payment (to your credit card provider) once a month.
      - kzrdude 4y ago
        I don't enable these bank analytics (sweden) since that accepts their laundry list of terms for that service, suddenly opening for the bank to mine that data. Without agreeing to it, I have more protection.
      - teakettle42 4y ago
        Not a very modern system if it cannot account for a credit card. If you’re not using a credit card, you’re: - Adopting significant risk (debit card protections are not as strong as credit card protections) - Failing to establish a credit history - Giving away a significant amount of money. Credit card transaction fees are included in all prices. I use a card that gives me 2% cash back on all purchases — effectively, most or all of the transaction fee.
        ikr678 4y ago
        Other countries have stronger/ better enforced consumer protection laws so credit card chargebacks are less necessary. I fail to understand how you are giving away 'significant' money by spending from your own account? Are you referring to being able to earn interest on savings for the month before you have to settle the credit line?
  - xeromal 4y ago
    I don't like anyone having access to my bank account so I tend to see a credit card as an abstraction. If someone skims my debit card, that's my problem. If someone skims my credit card, that's my credit card's company's problem. I don't give out my debit card and I only use it at trusted ATMs.
- chociej 4y ago
  Put some charity donations on autopay using a dedicated credit card, then configure the card to autopay the balance every month. Or, get hyperoptimal and set it up so that your overall credit card utilization stays at 1%, which is better under the FICO system than 0%.
marvin 4y ago
I was about to point out the obscene creditor friendliness of Norway when I saw you extolling the virtues of our credit system, so I'm glad you did it first. The part of fairly tracking poor payment history is good, the rest, not so much. We effectively have a form of wage slavery by law. If a person has debts that are unpayably big and is not (or no longer) eligible for the once-each-lifetime-only "personal bankruptcy", where one signs a contract to pay all property and incomes for five years towards one's debts before the remaining is erased, one is on the hook for the remaining debt for the rest of one's life. No recourse. Economic damage judgements in court do not qualify even for the five-year 100% garnishment contract. Someone impacted by this has no incentive to work ever again, because everything they earn above the survival minimum will be garnished. I'd hazard a guess that most of them end up on welfare. So it's not all good, unfortunately. I mentioned social unity punishments in our culture in a different thread the other day; this is another example of that.
- gruez 4y ago
  >If a person has debts that are unpayably big and is not (or no longer) eligible for the once-each-lifetime-only "personal bankruptcy" source for bankruptcy being "once-each-lifetime-only"? A quick search says that's false: https://www.findlaw.com/bankruptcy/after-bankruptcy/how-often-can-you-file-for-bankruptcy-.html https://www.findlaw.com/bankruptcy/after-bankruptcy/how-ofte...
  - kleinsch 4y ago
    They’re talking about Norway, which doesn’t follow US bankruptcy code.
  - TrackerFF 4y ago
    He's was quoting me and referring to here in Norway, not US - where it is very much a one-time deal. Over here, we can't really just "declare bankruptcy", it's a very lengthy process - which takes years. It's more like a court ordered program where the debtor and creditor agrees that the debtor is going to pay as much as possible towards the debt owed, for the next N years, and after that - all debt is erased. You're allowed to keep just enough of your salary to cover the most basic living expenses, everything else goes to the creditor. This also means not being credit worthy, which in turn could mean no cellphone plan, no insurance, no mortgage, no auto loans, no consumer loans, etc. Everything you buy, you have to buy with cash up-front. From start to finish, all that could take 5-10 years. And before you even sign a contract where you and the creditor agrees upon such a plan, the debt collection agencies are probably hounding you down on a daily basis, making whatever debt you had to begin with N times more expensive. The good news is that when you've held up your end of the agreement, it's gone. But you only get once chance. If you - for whatever reason, any reason at all - end up in the same situation, you're practically a debt slave. Which could mean wage/welfare garnishments for the rest of your life. This is especially true if you have multiple debt collection agencies bogging down individual debts with added and compounding fees. But to be fair, this is not normal. Very few end up being two-time losers - but sadly it could be entrepreneurs and small business owners, if they haven't structured their companies the right way.
2rsf 4y ago
More or less like Sweden, and everything is digitally interconnected to the main population registry so things like that usually don't happen: > TransUnion, one of Canada’s two main credit bureaus, had reported her as deceased. We also moved out of the stone age and faxes practically don't exist and all certificates are digital: > Two years of faxing in detailed documents—including Dave’s death certificate
kube-system 4y ago
We don't have "a credit score" in the US either. We have a credit history, much like you describe. For the businesses that review someone's credit history, the credit agencies provide some assortment of algorithms to help quantify it for them. This is colloquially called your "credit score", but in reality, there isn't a single credit score, there's a bunch of different algorithms and everyone uses a different one. The equivalent to a US "credit score" in Norway would be, a creditor's formula for determining creditworthiness from your credit history. The alternative to algorithmic scoring is often worse: someone making a subjective judgement call. Which, historically, is fraught with discrimination.
- david927 4y ago
  No... we very much have a "credit score." I'm American and don't like credit cards. I have a shockingly low credit score simply because I choose to pay using debit cards and I don't take loans. I never miss a payment and I earn a very good living but you wouldn't guess that based on my credit score. In Norway my credit history would be golden; it's the opposite here. Edit: I stand corrected. Thanks, I understand now.
  - gruez 4y ago
    None of what you said contradicts the parent post, which is simply refuting the claim that we have some sort of "official" credit score. In reality we have credit history, and various data vendors apply your history to their models to determine a rating for you.
  - bee_rider 4y ago
    You have a credit history, which multiple companies will apply their algorithms to to get a score. The algorithm will take into account things like "this history doesn't have a lot of debt, so we don't know if they repay," and generate a lower score.
  - waynesonfire 4y ago
    doesn't take much to get some history.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
josephcsible 4y ago
> And by law, these things have to be deleted when you've settled your debt. So if I paid off my debt on time, and you made your creditor fight tooth and nail for five years and get a court judgment to get your debt paid (but it is paid now), future lenders would have to treat us the same?

sgjohnson 4y ago

> trying to maximize my credit score for the sake of keeping it high. Just being a deadbeat will do exactly that. It takes 0 effort. Put your purchases on a credit card, and settle it in full every month.

Nextgrid 4y ago
> Put your purchases on a credit card, and settle it in full every month. If you don't need credit then taking on credit is an extra thing to manage. I personally like all my spending being on my debit card and coming out of my account so I have a single balance that reflects how much money I have. I don't want to deal with an extra company especially when their business model ultimately relies on trying to get me to miss a payment so they can charge fees/interest.
- maxerickson 4y ago
  Their business model is a 1 to 3 percent fee on every transaction they are involved in. My credit card company sends me a notification when a statement is ready and another friendly reminder a week before the bill is due. They make money on interest also, but they would rather have someone that spends and pays off a lot than someone that carries a modest balance.
  - Nextgrid 4y ago
    > Their business model is a 1 to 3 percent fee on every transaction they are involved in. In Europe and the UK, interchange is capped to a level that wouldn't support running a financial institution. > They make money on interest also Interest only gets charged a month after (at least on most UK credit cards), so if you're using it "the right way" and paying it off every month you will never incur any interest. It's good for you but ultimately proves that credit card providers rely on the (generally less financially-savvy) people who don't/can't use it "the right way" and incur interest or fees. That's honestly a pretty predatory business model I have no interest in supporting. > My credit card company sends me a notification when a statement is ready and another friendly reminder a week before the bill is due. True but why should I even statements and bills for spending what is my money in the first place? My argument is that you should only use a credit card when you actually need credit and not to merely game a broken system.
    - maxerickson 4y ago
      The article is about North American credit scores, so I guess it isn't completely ridiculous to assume that if it is unstated. Does your bank not have a system showing you what transactions you did in a month? The credit card statement is the same thing, for a different account.
    - sgjohnson 4y ago
      > My argument is that you should only use a credit card when you actually need credit and not to merely game a broken system. Credit cards are literally the dumbest way to borrow money, second only to payday loans. So you definitely shouldn't use them when you _actually need credit_. But you should use them to build up your credit score, so you can get extremely cheap credit when you actually need it.
- 2rsf 4y ago
  That. I was addicted to credit cards and small payments but now I pay everything debit, cash in other words, and life became much more simple and predictable
- is0tope 4y ago
  While I see your logic, ultimately using a credit card makes a lot of sense as long as you pay it off on time. Not only do you get the (small) benefits of the cashback or points, but you have added fraud protection also. Not sure how it is where you are, but where I am the payment is automatically done every month from your bank account. There is 0 chance of missing a payment, as long as you have a sufficiently positive floating balance in your account. If someone do not, then I would question their suitability for a credit card in the first place.
  - bee_rider 4y ago
    These companies are making money somehow. If they are exploiting people more clever than me, then I'll probably fall for it too. If they are exploiting people less clever than me, seems pretty evil, I don't want anything to do with that.
    - CPLX 4y ago
      How they are making money isn't a secret. They take a percentage of the transaction from the merchant you pay every time you make a charge. It's effectively free from your perspective, the merchant is willing to share some of your money to allow you the convenience of paying by card.
  - steelframe 4y ago
    > you have added fraud protection also My bank provides fraud protection for my debit card. A card for my account got skimmed and was used to withdraw cash from an ATM. Got my money back with a single phone call to report the fraudulent activity.
  - Nextgrid 4y ago
    > Not only do you get the (small) benefits of the cashback or points Maybe in the US - in Europe where interchange is capped, credit card rewards aren't worth it. Not to mention, I like my privacy and don't want to deal with any rewards or offers programs anyway. > but you have added fraud protection also. In practice, all the fraud I've been victim of always fit within the card networks' dispute resolution rules. The only time I can think of this being necessary is airlines that go bust (where a card network dispute would technically succeed but fails because there's literally no money to claim back anymore). > where I am the payment is automatically done every month from your bank account. There is 0 chance of missing a payment, as long as you have a sufficiently positive floating balance in your account. If someone do not, then I would question their suitability for a credit card in the first place. See my other comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31504046 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31504046
- EliRivers 4y ago
  Do you not have an option to just automatically have the full amount paid off from your account every month? I've never had to do anything involving paying a credit card; on getting the card, I tell them to just take the full amount every month from my bank and that's what happens until years later for whatever reason I cancel the card. They might well like me to miss a payment so they can charge me interest, but it's never going to happen. This is a genuine question; I know that other countries do things differently. Is that not an option where you are?
  - Nextgrid 4y ago
    It does, but that payment takes several days to clear and messes up your bank's analytics. I use a modern bank that gives me a real-time overview of my spending and categories it, but this all goes out the window if all your spending is on a credit card and the only thing your bank sees is a single payment (to your credit card provider) once a month.
    - kzrdude 4y ago
      I don't enable these bank analytics (sweden) since that accepts their laundry list of terms for that service, suddenly opening for the bank to mine that data. Without agreeing to it, I have more protection.
    - teakettle42 4y ago
      Not a very modern system if it cannot account for a credit card. If you’re not using a credit card, you’re: - Adopting significant risk (debit card protections are not as strong as credit card protections) - Failing to establish a credit history - Giving away a significant amount of money. Credit card transaction fees are included in all prices. I use a card that gives me 2% cash back on all purchases — effectively, most or all of the transaction fee.
      - ikr678 4y ago
        Other countries have stronger/ better enforced consumer protection laws so credit card chargebacks are less necessary. I fail to understand how you are giving away 'significant' money by spending from your own account? Are you referring to being able to earn interest on savings for the month before you have to settle the credit line?
- xeromal 4y ago
  I don't like anyone having access to my bank account so I tend to see a credit card as an abstraction. If someone skims my debit card, that's my problem. If someone skims my credit card, that's my credit card's company's problem. I don't give out my debit card and I only use it at trusted ATMs.
chociej 4y ago
Put some charity donations on autopay using a dedicated credit card, then configure the card to autopay the balance every month. Or, get hyperoptimal and set it up so that your overall credit card utilization stays at 1%, which is better under the FICO system than 0%.

marvin 4y ago

I was about to point out the obscene creditor friendliness of Norway when I saw you extolling the virtues of our credit system, so I'm glad you did it first. The part of fairly tracking poor payment history is good, the rest, not so much. We effectively have a form of wage slavery by law. If a person has debts that are unpayably big and is not (or no longer) eligible for the once-each-lifetime-only "personal bankruptcy", where one signs a contract to pay all property and incomes for five years towards one's debts before the remaining is erased, one is on the hook for the remaining debt for the rest of one's life. No recourse. Economic damage judgements in court do not qualify even for the five-year 100% garnishment contract. Someone impacted by this has no incentive to work ever again, because everything they earn above the survival minimum will be garnished. I'd hazard a guess that most of them end up on welfare. So it's not all good, unfortunately. I mentioned social unity punishments in our culture in a different thread the other day; this is another example of that.

gruez 4y ago
>If a person has debts that are unpayably big and is not (or no longer) eligible for the once-each-lifetime-only "personal bankruptcy" source for bankruptcy being "once-each-lifetime-only"? A quick search says that's false: https://www.findlaw.com/bankruptcy/after-bankruptcy/how-often-can-you-file-for-bankruptcy-.html https://www.findlaw.com/bankruptcy/after-bankruptcy/how-ofte...
- kleinsch 4y ago
  They’re talking about Norway, which doesn’t follow US bankruptcy code.
- TrackerFF 4y ago
  He's was quoting me and referring to here in Norway, not US - where it is very much a one-time deal. Over here, we can't really just "declare bankruptcy", it's a very lengthy process - which takes years. It's more like a court ordered program where the debtor and creditor agrees that the debtor is going to pay as much as possible towards the debt owed, for the next N years, and after that - all debt is erased. You're allowed to keep just enough of your salary to cover the most basic living expenses, everything else goes to the creditor. This also means not being credit worthy, which in turn could mean no cellphone plan, no insurance, no mortgage, no auto loans, no consumer loans, etc. Everything you buy, you have to buy with cash up-front. From start to finish, all that could take 5-10 years. And before you even sign a contract where you and the creditor agrees upon such a plan, the debt collection agencies are probably hounding you down on a daily basis, making whatever debt you had to begin with N times more expensive. The good news is that when you've held up your end of the agreement, it's gone. But you only get once chance. If you - for whatever reason, any reason at all - end up in the same situation, you're practically a debt slave. Which could mean wage/welfare garnishments for the rest of your life. This is especially true if you have multiple debt collection agencies bogging down individual debts with added and compounding fees. But to be fair, this is not normal. Very few end up being two-time losers - but sadly it could be entrepreneurs and small business owners, if they haven't structured their companies the right way.

2rsf 4y ago

More or less like Sweden, and everything is digitally interconnected to the main population registry so things like that usually don't happen: > TransUnion, one of Canada’s two main credit bureaus, had reported her as deceased. We also moved out of the stone age and faxes practically don't exist and all certificates are digital: > Two years of faxing in detailed documents—including Dave’s death certificate

kube-system 4y ago

We don't have "a credit score" in the US either. We have a credit history, much like you describe. For the businesses that review someone's credit history, the credit agencies provide some assortment of algorithms to help quantify it for them. This is colloquially called your "credit score", but in reality, there isn't a single credit score, there's a bunch of different algorithms and everyone uses a different one. The equivalent to a US "credit score" in Norway would be, a creditor's formula for determining creditworthiness from your credit history. The alternative to algorithmic scoring is often worse: someone making a subjective judgement call. Which, historically, is fraught with discrimination.

david927 4y ago
No... we very much have a "credit score." I'm American and don't like credit cards. I have a shockingly low credit score simply because I choose to pay using debit cards and I don't take loans. I never miss a payment and I earn a very good living but you wouldn't guess that based on my credit score. In Norway my credit history would be golden; it's the opposite here. Edit: I stand corrected. Thanks, I understand now.
- gruez 4y ago
  None of what you said contradicts the parent post, which is simply refuting the claim that we have some sort of "official" credit score. In reality we have credit history, and various data vendors apply your history to their models to determine a rating for you.
- bee_rider 4y ago
  You have a credit history, which multiple companies will apply their algorithms to to get a score. The algorithm will take into account things like "this history doesn't have a lot of debt, so we don't know if they repay," and generate a lower score.
- waynesonfire 4y ago
  doesn't take much to get some history.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

josephcsible 4y ago

> And by law, these things have to be deleted when you've settled your debt. So if I paid off my debt on time, and you made your creditor fight tooth and nail for five years and get a court judgment to get your debt paid (but it is paid now), future lenders would have to treat us the same?