4 ms·

> the first 2 years, I can pay someone 35 -> 50 -> +10k bonus You pay them such terrible wages and you’re surprised they leave? You can make $35k at in-n-out s

> the first 2 years, I can pay someone 35 -> 50 -> +10k bonus You pay them such terrible wages and you’re surprised they leave? You can make $35k at in-n-out shilling beef on a bun.

zmxz 4y ago
What a terrible person, doesn't have access to infinite money and can't afford to overpay underskilled staff.
- rtpg 4y ago
  Perhaps their business model is not good? Acting like companies deserve underpaid labor (let's not even get into the combination of that with an expectation of fealty + coming to the office every day to avoid managers being lonely) gets us to situations where people out of college with shitty negotiation skills end up losing 5 years of their life in miserable situations. Unless you are a business owner, having everyone be paid reasonably is a net win, but it's also the right thing to do, and shows a minimum of respect to people doing work.
- californical 4y ago
  If you can’t pay competitively for competent people, then complain that nobody wants to work for you, I think the real problem is that your business is unviable since you can’t cover the costs to operate it
  - zmxz 4y ago
    Don't read what's written the way it suits you in order to come out as a better person, also commenting on someone's business with literally 0 facts means only that you're posting from an image you created in which you're good and me - evil. Competent people are worth every penny and then some. We're all talking about incompetent ones who throw a huge shadow over the competent ones. I think you're aware of that but you still posted what you posted. Thank you for the compassion and understanding. Guilty before trial, that's the way we do it, right? :)
    - CalRobert 4y ago
      I agree competent people are worth every penny. Why are you not paying enough to get them? The salaries you listed are half what they'd be in Ireland and something like a quarter - maybe less - of what they'd be in California.
      - eastbound 4y ago
        > Why are you not paying enough to get them? Because they’re not competent? I pay my senior 30% above what he asked, he still doesn’t want to test all edge cases and lets slip many things because he wants us to hire a tester. Actually competent people are paid surprisingly little, because then they struggle to increase their wage.
        CalRobert 4y ago
        I don't think this is true... I've worked with excellent engineers and aside from a couple at the very, very beginning of their career (~2009/2010 no less when the economy was terrible) they were very well paid.
  - eastbound 4y ago
    Those are 20% above market rate in France, probably 40% above when you don’t have an engineer’s degree. The blanket “YOU PAY THEM TOO LITTLE” and its brother “EVEN AT THE BEGINNING OF MY CAREER I NEVER STUDY AT HOME AND I JUST DO WHAT MY EMPLOYER TELLS ME ON A WRITTEN SHEET OF PAPER WITH DEFINITIVE SIGN OFF” mentality needs to go. You choose: - Want to work in a factory? €1200 net per month, - Job that requires that you come with a skillset? €2400 pm. - Job where you build an unknown product with lots of leeway, innovation, networking and entrepreneurship? 5400€ to 20k€ per month. 20k€ is President Macron’s salary, so it’s not so low. I’ll give my 200k€ dividends to whoever accepts to perform the odd tasks like maintain the jQuery app AND clean the bathrooms AND notice when they need cleaning AND launch a new product when it needs launching AND close one down and find suitable ways out for customers. “How do you expect them to work for you if you make them clean the toilets!” well that’s why I’m getting the bonus. To anyone willing to bend for the toilets when needed, there is a job available here.
ChuckNorris89 4y ago
Maybe they're in an European country where that would be a good wage.
- aixi 4y ago
  In most EU countries that is not a good wage
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    It may not be, but it's pretty standard what juniors usually make in lots of parts in Europe if you exclude fang, big tech and high rolling unicorns.
  - kgwgk 4y ago
    Depends on your definition of good. 50k+ is above average (almost?) everywhere and is more than twice the EU average.
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      I think a lot of HN devs, even in Europe, live in a high earners bubble, especially if they have seniority at a good company in a hot market, and loose perspective of what the average wages really are.
    - thebean11 4y ago
      The median wage in the US is like $35k, but that does not mean $70k is a high dev salary..
      - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
        That apples to oranges comparison is hardly relevant in this context. For better or worse, Europe has much less income inequality than in the US, so European dev wages are a lot closer to the median wages, than in the US where devs make several times over the national median wage. If you remove the big tech hubs like London, Amsterdam, Berlin, etc. then median European dev wages plummet, coming to party with the rest of the white collar jobs.

> the first 2 years, I can pay someone 35 -> 50 -> +10k bonus You pay them such terrible wages and you’re surprised they leave? You can make $35k at in-n-out shilling beef on a bun.

zmxz 4y ago

What a terrible person, doesn't have access to infinite money and can't afford to overpay underskilled staff.

rtpg 4y ago
Perhaps their business model is not good? Acting like companies deserve underpaid labor (let's not even get into the combination of that with an expectation of fealty + coming to the office every day to avoid managers being lonely) gets us to situations where people out of college with shitty negotiation skills end up losing 5 years of their life in miserable situations. Unless you are a business owner, having everyone be paid reasonably is a net win, but it's also the right thing to do, and shows a minimum of respect to people doing work.
californical 4y ago
If you can’t pay competitively for competent people, then complain that nobody wants to work for you, I think the real problem is that your business is unviable since you can’t cover the costs to operate it
- zmxz 4y ago
  Don't read what's written the way it suits you in order to come out as a better person, also commenting on someone's business with literally 0 facts means only that you're posting from an image you created in which you're good and me - evil. Competent people are worth every penny and then some. We're all talking about incompetent ones who throw a huge shadow over the competent ones. I think you're aware of that but you still posted what you posted. Thank you for the compassion and understanding. Guilty before trial, that's the way we do it, right? :)
  - CalRobert 4y ago
    I agree competent people are worth every penny. Why are you not paying enough to get them? The salaries you listed are half what they'd be in Ireland and something like a quarter - maybe less - of what they'd be in California.
    - eastbound 4y ago
      > Why are you not paying enough to get them? Because they’re not competent? I pay my senior 30% above what he asked, he still doesn’t want to test all edge cases and lets slip many things because he wants us to hire a tester. Actually competent people are paid surprisingly little, because then they struggle to increase their wage.
      - CalRobert 4y ago
        I don't think this is true... I've worked with excellent engineers and aside from a couple at the very, very beginning of their career (~2009/2010 no less when the economy was terrible) they were very well paid.
- eastbound 4y ago
  Those are 20% above market rate in France, probably 40% above when you don’t have an engineer’s degree. The blanket “YOU PAY THEM TOO LITTLE” and its brother “EVEN AT THE BEGINNING OF MY CAREER I NEVER STUDY AT HOME AND I JUST DO WHAT MY EMPLOYER TELLS ME ON A WRITTEN SHEET OF PAPER WITH DEFINITIVE SIGN OFF” mentality needs to go. You choose: - Want to work in a factory? €1200 net per month, - Job that requires that you come with a skillset? €2400 pm. - Job where you build an unknown product with lots of leeway, innovation, networking and entrepreneurship? 5400€ to 20k€ per month. 20k€ is President Macron’s salary, so it’s not so low. I’ll give my 200k€ dividends to whoever accepts to perform the odd tasks like maintain the jQuery app AND clean the bathrooms AND notice when they need cleaning AND launch a new product when it needs launching AND close one down and find suitable ways out for customers. “How do you expect them to work for you if you make them clean the toilets!” well that’s why I’m getting the bonus. To anyone willing to bend for the toilets when needed, there is a job available here.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago

Maybe they're in an European country where that would be a good wage.

aixi 4y ago
In most EU countries that is not a good wage
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  It may not be, but it's pretty standard what juniors usually make in lots of parts in Europe if you exclude fang, big tech and high rolling unicorns.
- kgwgk 4y ago
  Depends on your definition of good. 50k+ is above average (almost?) everywhere and is more than twice the EU average.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    I think a lot of HN devs, even in Europe, live in a high earners bubble, especially if they have seniority at a good company in a hot market, and loose perspective of what the average wages really are.
  - thebean11 4y ago
    The median wage in the US is like $35k, but that does not mean $70k is a high dev salary..
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      That apples to oranges comparison is hardly relevant in this context. For better or worse, Europe has much less income inequality than in the US, so European dev wages are a lot closer to the median wages, than in the US where devs make several times over the national median wage. If you remove the big tech hubs like London, Amsterdam, Berlin, etc. then median European dev wages plummet, coming to party with the rest of the white collar jobs.