6 ms·

> X should be easy > proposes solution that involves YAML Am I crazy, ignorant, or is YAML the most tedious and error-prone format edit?

Marazan 4y ago
I have grown to loathe YAML over the years. It is a giant foot gun of a mess of syntax. I lile python, I like significant whitespace, I hate how YAML does it.
mountainriver 4y ago
Yes! YAML is great at visualizing data structures or producing small configs. The way it’s being used today in devops is terrible
shitlord 4y ago
Agreed, trial & error with YAML sucks. People hated it so much that Amazon created CDK, a tool that basically generates/executes Cloudformation templates.
- tormeh 4y ago
  Using a proper programming language seems to be the obvious end-game of configuration. Everything as code. Not quite sure why we keep trying and failing to use non-Turing complete configuration languages.
  - gjvc 4y ago
    ...and doing that allows one to interface to existing sources of truth for inventory and whatnot.
    - gtirloni 4y ago
      Just like with every other tool, right? Ansible dynamic inventories, Terraform plugins, etc.
    - shakezula 4y ago
      Feels like it needs to be stated it also introduces additional attack vectors. It’s not without consequence.
      - gjvc 4y ago
        agree
  - K0SM0S 4y ago
    The worst offense is perhaps that we've evolved quite intuitive languages that would impeccably serve most con/prosumer needs as far as "mostly static but smartly architected" configurations are concerned. Python, Go, even Scratch (for a 100% GUX)… And among the many pros, error handling is enough to warrant the change from markup. But IMHO here's the one barrier: people need to stop thinking of an Information System (IS) as a collection of machines, and move one level of abstraction above to consider said IS as the unit, and machines as subs of sort (subsystems, components, modules, call it what you want). Conceptually, your "main" space is the IS, everything else is modules down the namespace hierarchy. We need to think of machines as we used to think of programs, and think of IS's as we used to think of machines. In the UNIX philosophy, any application is a collection of programs, just as an IS-as-code is a collection of machines-as-software-modules (basically feature libraries for "main" to use). When that paradigm comes, you'll be able to simply "import" some subsystem (say Elastic Search, whatever machines in the IS) and add that (as a class, method, whatever) to all your existing objects, because the concept of "interfaces" (quite literally the basis of interoperability, dating back forever in computing) will be _native_ to your IS model in a Turing-complete paradigm. Not sure my wording made sense to non-programmers (cue: "quotes" are technical terms, not general meaning), but I'm too lazy to write a layman expose.
  - throwaway894345 4y ago
    The issue isn't that they're Turing complete or not, but that people are hacking programming language features on top of YAML in the worst conceivable way. Like if you were regular sadistic, you would say "I'm not going to write Python, I'm going to write Python's AST in YAML", but if you're advanced sadistic you say "I'm not going to write Python's AST in YAML, I'm going to make up an AST for a programming language that doesn't exist with bizarre and inconsistent semantics in YAML (YAML has lists, but I'm going to make people pass lists as comma-delineated strings--it'll be a riot)".
marcosdumay 4y ago
YAML is bad, but not that bad. The problem is more with the software that uses it, and it using YAML is just a high quality proxy for the signal you want. YAML is a bit error prone, but it's those tools that have an incredibly complex format.
geoffeg 4y ago
I'm really fascinated about why so many infrastructure-as-code tools are actually infrastructure-as-markup. Many of them seem to "evolve" until they're awkward attempts at bolting full programming language semantics onto that markup language. I imagine it started out as wanting to keep a simple configuration-style format for infrastructure but fell apart when people's stacks grew large and complex. Projects like Pulumi and CDK seem to be much better approaches, but don't seem to have much traction compared to TF, Cloudformation, etc.
- throwaway894345 4y ago
  In the early days, people would write imperative scripts to provision infrastructure, but once it's out there you can't just delete resources that you no longer want by deleting the relevant blocks from your script and re-running it--you had to delete them manually or write a "migration script". This was untenable. Then some tools came out which let you use YAML or JSON to describe the desired state of the world, and some tool would diff that against the current state of the world to determine which resources to create, which to delete, and which to update. People started to conflate "YAML" with this sort of diffing tool and they conflated imperative programming languages with the legacy imperative scripting approach. Early infra-as-code vendors capitalized on the YAML=good/programs=bad myth and re-emphasized it by showing cute toy examples and passing off the simplicity as an effect of the YAML/etc rather than the inherent simplicity of the example. Unfortunately, pure YAML/HCL/etc doesn't scale--you end up needing to reference resources from other resources (and/or attributes on those resources), and you end up needing to DRY up many repetitious blocks and so on. What you naturally want is to generate those static YAML configs from a programming language; however, IaC vendors had committed themselves to the "YAML = simple" brand so instead they started building half-assed programming language features into their YAML dialect (effectively using YAML to represent abstract syntax trees for the world's crappiest programming languages). Terraform and CloudFormation fall into this bucket. I guess Helm looked at the landscape and decided it wasn't easy enough to generate syntactically invalid YAML blobs, and consequently decided to use text templates. Eventually the industry caught on to the scam and demanded programming languages back, so we got CDKs which misunderstand the assignment in a different way. Rather than emitting YAML/etc that can be passed into a diff engine, you get some weird bindings that calls (and is called from) a node process (I can't tell what this node process actually does even after reading the docs).
leodr21 4y ago
To be fair, I find editing YAML files not that bad, especially with VSCode checking the syntax and pointing out anomalies. But it can be tricky to read other people's YAML files on GitHub. It's easy to miss subtle mistakes.
- happymellon 4y ago
  The worst YAML is when they use the templating and anchors for repetition. It ends up completely unreadable. Though better than when Jinja is used on YAML.
throwaway892238 4y ago
YAML was not created to be edited by hand. It is a serialization data format; programs are supposed to serialize objects into it, not have humans type into it. Do you edit Python Pickle files by hand?
sigjuice 4y ago
I didn’t even get that far. I simply can’t deal with anything that does indentation with 2 spaces. PS: I forgot that I wrote a cloud init file merely hours ago. Yuck.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

Marazan 4y ago

I have grown to loathe YAML over the years. It is a giant foot gun of a mess of syntax. I lile python, I like significant whitespace, I hate how YAML does it.

mountainriver 4y ago

Yes! YAML is great at visualizing data structures or producing small configs. The way it’s being used today in devops is terrible

shitlord 4y ago

Agreed, trial & error with YAML sucks. People hated it so much that Amazon created CDK, a tool that basically generates/executes Cloudformation templates.

tormeh 4y ago
Using a proper programming language seems to be the obvious end-game of configuration. Everything as code. Not quite sure why we keep trying and failing to use non-Turing complete configuration languages.
- gjvc 4y ago
  ...and doing that allows one to interface to existing sources of truth for inventory and whatnot.
  - gtirloni 4y ago
    Just like with every other tool, right? Ansible dynamic inventories, Terraform plugins, etc.
  - shakezula 4y ago
    Feels like it needs to be stated it also introduces additional attack vectors. It’s not without consequence.
    - gjvc 4y ago
      agree
- K0SM0S 4y ago
  The worst offense is perhaps that we've evolved quite intuitive languages that would impeccably serve most con/prosumer needs as far as "mostly static but smartly architected" configurations are concerned. Python, Go, even Scratch (for a 100% GUX)… And among the many pros, error handling is enough to warrant the change from markup. But IMHO here's the one barrier: people need to stop thinking of an Information System (IS) as a collection of machines, and move one level of abstraction above to consider said IS as the unit, and machines as subs of sort (subsystems, components, modules, call it what you want). Conceptually, your "main" space is the IS, everything else is modules down the namespace hierarchy. We need to think of machines as we used to think of programs, and think of IS's as we used to think of machines. In the UNIX philosophy, any application is a collection of programs, just as an IS-as-code is a collection of machines-as-software-modules (basically feature libraries for "main" to use). When that paradigm comes, you'll be able to simply "import" some subsystem (say Elastic Search, whatever machines in the IS) and add that (as a class, method, whatever) to all your existing objects, because the concept of "interfaces" (quite literally the basis of interoperability, dating back forever in computing) will be _native_ to your IS model in a Turing-complete paradigm. Not sure my wording made sense to non-programmers (cue: "quotes" are technical terms, not general meaning), but I'm too lazy to write a layman expose.
- throwaway894345 4y ago
  The issue isn't that they're Turing complete or not, but that people are hacking programming language features on top of YAML in the worst conceivable way. Like if you were regular sadistic, you would say "I'm not going to write Python, I'm going to write Python's AST in YAML", but if you're advanced sadistic you say "I'm not going to write Python's AST in YAML, I'm going to make up an AST for a programming language that doesn't exist with bizarre and inconsistent semantics in YAML (YAML has lists, but I'm going to make people pass lists as comma-delineated strings--it'll be a riot)".

marcosdumay 4y ago

YAML is bad, but not that bad. The problem is more with the software that uses it, and it using YAML is just a high quality proxy for the signal you want. YAML is a bit error prone, but it's those tools that have an incredibly complex format.

geoffeg 4y ago

I'm really fascinated about why so many infrastructure-as-code tools are actually infrastructure-as-markup. Many of them seem to "evolve" until they're awkward attempts at bolting full programming language semantics onto that markup language. I imagine it started out as wanting to keep a simple configuration-style format for infrastructure but fell apart when people's stacks grew large and complex. Projects like Pulumi and CDK seem to be much better approaches, but don't seem to have much traction compared to TF, Cloudformation, etc.

throwaway894345 4y ago
In the early days, people would write imperative scripts to provision infrastructure, but once it's out there you can't just delete resources that you no longer want by deleting the relevant blocks from your script and re-running it--you had to delete them manually or write a "migration script". This was untenable. Then some tools came out which let you use YAML or JSON to describe the desired state of the world, and some tool would diff that against the current state of the world to determine which resources to create, which to delete, and which to update. People started to conflate "YAML" with this sort of diffing tool and they conflated imperative programming languages with the legacy imperative scripting approach. Early infra-as-code vendors capitalized on the YAML=good/programs=bad myth and re-emphasized it by showing cute toy examples and passing off the simplicity as an effect of the YAML/etc rather than the inherent simplicity of the example. Unfortunately, pure YAML/HCL/etc doesn't scale--you end up needing to reference resources from other resources (and/or attributes on those resources), and you end up needing to DRY up many repetitious blocks and so on. What you naturally want is to generate those static YAML configs from a programming language; however, IaC vendors had committed themselves to the "YAML = simple" brand so instead they started building half-assed programming language features into their YAML dialect (effectively using YAML to represent abstract syntax trees for the world's crappiest programming languages). Terraform and CloudFormation fall into this bucket. I guess Helm looked at the landscape and decided it wasn't easy enough to generate syntactically invalid YAML blobs, and consequently decided to use text templates. Eventually the industry caught on to the scam and demanded programming languages back, so we got CDKs which misunderstand the assignment in a different way. Rather than emitting YAML/etc that can be passed into a diff engine, you get some weird bindings that calls (and is called from) a node process (I can't tell what this node process actually does even after reading the docs).

leodr21 4y ago

To be fair, I find editing YAML files not that bad, especially with VSCode checking the syntax and pointing out anomalies. But it can be tricky to read other people's YAML files on GitHub. It's easy to miss subtle mistakes.

happymellon 4y ago
The worst YAML is when they use the templating and anchors for repetition. It ends up completely unreadable. Though better than when Jinja is used on YAML.

throwaway892238 4y ago

YAML was not created to be edited by hand. It is a serialization data format; programs are supposed to serialize objects into it, not have humans type into it. Do you edit Python Pickle files by hand?

sigjuice 4y ago

I didn’t even get that far. I simply can’t deal with anything that does indentation with 2 spaces. PS: I forgot that I wrote a cloud init file merely hours ago. Yuck.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]