4 ms·

You aren't paid to play videogames. You are paid to test videogames. It's asinine to think they are just playing the games - QA has complex skills necessary to

You aren't paid to play videogames. You are paid to test videogames. It's asinine to think they are just playing the games - QA has complex skills necessary to succeed, from technical writing to careful test planning to cross organizational planning. QA is some of the least rewarding and most difficult work in a games studio. It's like asking why camera operators in film sets "get paid to watch movies". We've decided we like games, so we better pay people for the labor in making them. Fuck off with this "it's an honor" bullshit. It's work. It deserves good working conditions.

charcircuit 4y ago
>It's asinine to think they are just playing the game There are bad parts of every job. The fun part of SWE is coding, but that doesn't mean I don't have to write design docs, coordinat between different teams, etc. >It deserves good working conditions. I agree, but that doesn't mean you should make a union to do that.
- kanbara 4y ago
  one should not have to rely on the hugely imbalanced power structure between employer and employee to get better working conditions. these people have stopped licking the boots of capitalism and started to demand change. there’s nothing wrong with that, and there’s no inherent moral value that people should adhere to in their work relationship that precludes them from forming a union.
- sjtindell 4y ago
  I sit upon a silk cushion, my servants fanning me as I pluck a grape from the bowl. “The plebs don’t understand how hard I work too”, I complain to no one in particular. “Don’t they realize a union will only hurt them? If they’d just brought me their concerns, I’m sure I would have changed those policies.” My guards chuckle as they spear a nearby peasant and toss him from the ramparts.
  - ProfXponent 4y ago
    This made my morning, thank you. Personally I cannot wait for these “engineers” to be treated like normal technicians. The odd sense of superiority that people like OP seem to have is nauseating.
    - turtledove 4y ago
      FWIW, I am an engineer and I agree with you.
      - ProfXponent 4y ago
        So am I. I have interviewed a lot of “software engineers” lately and I think that our industry needs to do a better job of protecting that title.
  - Manuel_D 4y ago
    Is this seriously supposed to be anything but hyperbole? It's not a question of how hard a given job is, but how much demand there is for a given job. If someone wants this job and wants it so much that they're willing to do it for less, I'm not saying no. Not unless there's some special skill that these existing QA people have that the rest of the labor pool lacks. If someone else is capable of doing my job for half the pay, then hats off to them, and they deserve it.
    - turtledove 4y ago
      That's certainly one theory on how to price labor, but it's not the only one (and not even the only one in our capitalist economy.) Worker coops, for instance, have a totally different theory of labor value. So no, it's not hyperbole to suggest the poster is undervaluing their peers.
      - Manuel_D 4y ago
        Not just "undervaluing their peers" but comparing them to peasants murdered and put on pikes?
- turtledove 4y ago
  Writing design docs isn't a bad part of the SWE job. > that doesn't mean you should make a union to do that. Usually folks don't unionize until their work consistently fails to deliver good working conditions, so, yeah, in this case you do need to unionize to get that.
seattle_spring 4y ago
Least rewarding? Sure. Most difficult? I'm not so sure about that one.
- turtledove 4y ago
  What's more difficult than a job that's absolutely soul draining and long hours for next to no pay? It's difficult to become a software engineer, but the job is relatively easy. It's not hard to become QA, or a fruit picker, or meat packer, but those jobs are fucking hard.
  - kupopuffs 4y ago
    I think it's time to take a step back and realize that even living in a first world country and working a tech job is, honestly, not a bad deal.
  - Manuel_D 4y ago
    > What's more difficult than a job that's absolutely soul draining and long hours for next to no pay? An equally soul draining job that requires you to service customers. And equally draining job that puts in physical danger. And equally draining job that takes out on long distance travel, like crewing a vessel. I really doubt that a company is going to struggle to find people to load up a build of the game and try to clip through walls all day.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
s3r3nity 4y ago
- JaimeThompson 4y ago
  Are not all people worthy of being treated with respect?
  - seneca 4y ago
    "All people being treated with respect" and claiming a secondary role is the most difficult are no where near the same thing, and the emotionally manipulative equivocation is lazy and puerile.
    - turtledove 4y ago
      I was an engineer in a games studio for years. QA did not have an easier job than I did. None of my engineer peers would do QA work. Wonder why that was? Maybe because the life of a QA person was difficult? Long hours, contact labor, no benefits, low pay, repetitive work, limited opportunities for creative output, getting fired easily, getting blamed for buggy releases, putting up with prima Donna devs, working late into the night, being treated like garbage from the rest of the studio, etc, etc. Like, I had more training and a specific set of in demand skills, but my job paid me will and gave me benefits and creative output. I'd also find construction work, janitorial work, slaughterhouse work, fruit picking work, etc all much more difficult than being an engineer. Don't confuse "difficult training" with "difficult job". It was hard to climb our ivory tower, absolutely, but we've got it easy after that.
      - seneca 4y ago
        I think the disagreement here is around different uses of the word "difficult". Engineering is a job that demands more skill. It is difficult in that fewer people are capable of doing it. QA, and to a much greater extend the other jobs you listed, are difficult because they are unpleasant to do. That is, because people are unwilling to do them. (QA still has skill demands that limit the people who are able to do it, just much less so. I dont mean to equate it with the other jobs you listed that are largely just physically demanding and otherwise limited by tolerance for misery). Both are accurate uses of the word, but are very different. I agree with you that QA is more difficult.im the latter sense.
dang 4y ago
You broke the site guidelines with this. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it. Note this one: "When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. 'That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3' can be shortened to '1 + 1 is 2, not 3."

charcircuit 4y ago

>It's asinine to think they are just playing the game There are bad parts of every job. The fun part of SWE is coding, but that doesn't mean I don't have to write design docs, coordinat between different teams, etc. >It deserves good working conditions. I agree, but that doesn't mean you should make a union to do that.

kanbara 4y ago
one should not have to rely on the hugely imbalanced power structure between employer and employee to get better working conditions. these people have stopped licking the boots of capitalism and started to demand change. there’s nothing wrong with that, and there’s no inherent moral value that people should adhere to in their work relationship that precludes them from forming a union.
sjtindell 4y ago
I sit upon a silk cushion, my servants fanning me as I pluck a grape from the bowl. “The plebs don’t understand how hard I work too”, I complain to no one in particular. “Don’t they realize a union will only hurt them? If they’d just brought me their concerns, I’m sure I would have changed those policies.” My guards chuckle as they spear a nearby peasant and toss him from the ramparts.
- ProfXponent 4y ago
  This made my morning, thank you. Personally I cannot wait for these “engineers” to be treated like normal technicians. The odd sense of superiority that people like OP seem to have is nauseating.
  - turtledove 4y ago
    FWIW, I am an engineer and I agree with you.
    - ProfXponent 4y ago
      So am I. I have interviewed a lot of “software engineers” lately and I think that our industry needs to do a better job of protecting that title.
- Manuel_D 4y ago
  Is this seriously supposed to be anything but hyperbole? It's not a question of how hard a given job is, but how much demand there is for a given job. If someone wants this job and wants it so much that they're willing to do it for less, I'm not saying no. Not unless there's some special skill that these existing QA people have that the rest of the labor pool lacks. If someone else is capable of doing my job for half the pay, then hats off to them, and they deserve it.
  - turtledove 4y ago
    That's certainly one theory on how to price labor, but it's not the only one (and not even the only one in our capitalist economy.) Worker coops, for instance, have a totally different theory of labor value. So no, it's not hyperbole to suggest the poster is undervaluing their peers.
    - Manuel_D 4y ago
      Not just "undervaluing their peers" but comparing them to peasants murdered and put on pikes?
turtledove 4y ago
Writing design docs isn't a bad part of the SWE job. > that doesn't mean you should make a union to do that. Usually folks don't unionize until their work consistently fails to deliver good working conditions, so, yeah, in this case you do need to unionize to get that.

seattle_spring 4y ago

Least rewarding? Sure. Most difficult? I'm not so sure about that one.

turtledove 4y ago
What's more difficult than a job that's absolutely soul draining and long hours for next to no pay? It's difficult to become a software engineer, but the job is relatively easy. It's not hard to become QA, or a fruit picker, or meat packer, but those jobs are fucking hard.
- kupopuffs 4y ago
  I think it's time to take a step back and realize that even living in a first world country and working a tech job is, honestly, not a bad deal.
- Manuel_D 4y ago
  > What's more difficult than a job that's absolutely soul draining and long hours for next to no pay? An equally soul draining job that requires you to service customers. And equally draining job that puts in physical danger. And equally draining job that takes out on long distance travel, like crewing a vessel. I really doubt that a company is going to struggle to find people to load up a build of the game and try to clip through walls all day.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

s3r3nity 4y ago

JaimeThompson 4y ago
Are not all people worthy of being treated with respect?
- seneca 4y ago
  "All people being treated with respect" and claiming a secondary role is the most difficult are no where near the same thing, and the emotionally manipulative equivocation is lazy and puerile.
  - turtledove 4y ago
    I was an engineer in a games studio for years. QA did not have an easier job than I did. None of my engineer peers would do QA work. Wonder why that was? Maybe because the life of a QA person was difficult? Long hours, contact labor, no benefits, low pay, repetitive work, limited opportunities for creative output, getting fired easily, getting blamed for buggy releases, putting up with prima Donna devs, working late into the night, being treated like garbage from the rest of the studio, etc, etc. Like, I had more training and a specific set of in demand skills, but my job paid me will and gave me benefits and creative output. I'd also find construction work, janitorial work, slaughterhouse work, fruit picking work, etc all much more difficult than being an engineer. Don't confuse "difficult training" with "difficult job". It was hard to climb our ivory tower, absolutely, but we've got it easy after that.
    - seneca 4y ago
      I think the disagreement here is around different uses of the word "difficult". Engineering is a job that demands more skill. It is difficult in that fewer people are capable of doing it. QA, and to a much greater extend the other jobs you listed, are difficult because they are unpleasant to do. That is, because people are unwilling to do them. (QA still has skill demands that limit the people who are able to do it, just much less so. I dont mean to equate it with the other jobs you listed that are largely just physically demanding and otherwise limited by tolerance for misery). Both are accurate uses of the word, but are very different. I agree with you that QA is more difficult.im the latter sense.

dang 4y ago

You broke the site guidelines with this. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it. Note this one: "When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. 'That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3' can be shortened to '1 + 1 is 2, not 3."