3 ms·

> from what I'm hearing so far: There is little to no value assigned to the _paper_ I was given this advice when I was wavering on whether to finish my Ph.D. I

> from what I'm hearing so far: There is little to no value assigned to the _paper_ I was given this advice when I was wavering on whether to finish my Ph.D. In fact, a guy who had finished his Ph.D. told me don't bother, nothing changed from before or after he got it. Then I went to his wedding and he had the DJ refer to him as "Dr." the entire night in front of his entire family, and by God did they care. They were so proud of him for that title and that degree. After seeing that, I immediately went and applied to defend my dissertation. And here's the other thing -- even if you work in an industry like CS that has more egalitarian views on credentials like a Ph.D., the whole world is not like that. The actual piece of paper opens up several opportunities not available otherwise: - Some jobs require a Ph.D. All the experience in the world won't qualify you for that kind of role without the piece of paper. - You can get jobs as an "expert" easily, where the piece of paper reifies your expertise to your clients (think expert witness or consultant). It's difficult to explain "Yes, I'm at the top of my field except I don't have the same credentials as those other people who also claim they are at the top". The credentials are more convincing to a lot of people. - It's easier to emigrate to various places. Having a Ph.D. could help you qualify for a O1 visa in the US, and other countries have special carve outs in their immigration codes for Ph.D.s. You don't get any special treatment for being ABD, no matter how much you insist it wasn't worth your time. etc. So having completed the Ph.D., it was by far the right choice for me.

bumby 4y ago
>and by God did they care. I find it generally bad advice to chase after something when the main driver is social prestige. For one, by definition, you hinging your esteem to the (possibly fickle) opinion of somebody else and two, the people who are in fields for status rather than because of intrinsic joy of the work itself are often not the most productive or ethical. For example, the surgeons I know who are in the field mainly due to the status it confers seem to be quite miserable.
- lumost 4y ago
  A phd is a one time expense, you can choose to discard it or use it as needed. Unlike a surgeon, who must spend their career actually doing surgery or face financial ruin. Anecdotally, I have seen phds create expectation vs reality mismatches for some. The degree can easily become an anchor which holds someone to problems that they no longer care about, or provides false belief in one’s credentials.
  - bumby 4y ago
    >Unlike a surgeon, who must spend their career actually doing surgery or face financial ruin. I literally know somebody who went through surgery residency and decided to walk away from the field. They are not in financial ruin. Medical school is also a "one time expense", so I'm not convinced of the distinction. The opportunity cost of a PhD, especially in a field of engineering or CS is probably on similar par. The difference between a TA salary and someone in industry, over the course of 6-7 years to complete a PhD, can easily approach or exceed $500k. While the debt load between the two may be different, the actual opportunity cost is similar. >The degree can easily become an anchor which holds someone to problems that they no longer care about, or provides false belief in one’s credentials. Completely agree.
- ModernMech 4y ago
  > the people who are in fields for status rather than because of intrinsic joy of the work itself are often not the most productive or ethical. On the other hand, I've found that people who convince themselves that they are pursing a path based on intrinsic joy of the work itself quickly lose interest when they hit a wall and the work becomes not fun at all but a slog.
  - barrysteve 4y ago
    Like monks??
    - ModernMech 4y ago
      In academia. If you have religious fervor, that's another thing entirely.
      - bumby 4y ago
        I could concede the case for academia, but I think it probably has more to do with the broken academic system because it tends to punish those who follow a pursuit for intrinsic value, rather than some pragmatic goal of publishing, for example.
  - bumby 4y ago
    Really? It sounds to me like they are relying on "motivation" which will inevitably wane. That's different than what I'm speaking to. Think about somebody who grinds out of a sense of duty (high on the "conscientiousness" scale of personality traits). They may not be motivated by the task itself, but are still able to continue the effort because of it's intrinsic rewards (for fueling their identity as a dutiful person, for example). A parent may not feel motivated all the time regarding doing "silly" activities with their children. But they can push forward anyways, because the idea of "being a good parent" is intrinsically rewarding.

bumby 4y ago

>and by God did they care. I find it generally bad advice to chase after something when the main driver is social prestige. For one, by definition, you hinging your esteem to the (possibly fickle) opinion of somebody else and two, the people who are in fields for status rather than because of intrinsic joy of the work itself are often not the most productive or ethical. For example, the surgeons I know who are in the field mainly due to the status it confers seem to be quite miserable.

lumost 4y ago
A phd is a one time expense, you can choose to discard it or use it as needed. Unlike a surgeon, who must spend their career actually doing surgery or face financial ruin. Anecdotally, I have seen phds create expectation vs reality mismatches for some. The degree can easily become an anchor which holds someone to problems that they no longer care about, or provides false belief in one’s credentials.
- bumby 4y ago
  >Unlike a surgeon, who must spend their career actually doing surgery or face financial ruin. I literally know somebody who went through surgery residency and decided to walk away from the field. They are not in financial ruin. Medical school is also a "one time expense", so I'm not convinced of the distinction. The opportunity cost of a PhD, especially in a field of engineering or CS is probably on similar par. The difference between a TA salary and someone in industry, over the course of 6-7 years to complete a PhD, can easily approach or exceed $500k. While the debt load between the two may be different, the actual opportunity cost is similar. >The degree can easily become an anchor which holds someone to problems that they no longer care about, or provides false belief in one’s credentials. Completely agree.
ModernMech 4y ago
> the people who are in fields for status rather than because of intrinsic joy of the work itself are often not the most productive or ethical. On the other hand, I've found that people who convince themselves that they are pursing a path based on intrinsic joy of the work itself quickly lose interest when they hit a wall and the work becomes not fun at all but a slog.
- barrysteve 4y ago
  Like monks??
  - ModernMech 4y ago
    In academia. If you have religious fervor, that's another thing entirely.
    - bumby 4y ago
      I could concede the case for academia, but I think it probably has more to do with the broken academic system because it tends to punish those who follow a pursuit for intrinsic value, rather than some pragmatic goal of publishing, for example.
- bumby 4y ago
  Really? It sounds to me like they are relying on "motivation" which will inevitably wane. That's different than what I'm speaking to. Think about somebody who grinds out of a sense of duty (high on the "conscientiousness" scale of personality traits). They may not be motivated by the task itself, but are still able to continue the effort because of it's intrinsic rewards (for fueling their identity as a dutiful person, for example). A parent may not feel motivated all the time regarding doing "silly" activities with their children. But they can push forward anyways, because the idea of "being a good parent" is intrinsically rewarding.