6 ms·

Safari is crippling the mobile market, and we never even noticed

31 points by retskrad 4y ago

krnlpnc 4y ago
I hope this gains traction, real alternative browser options on iOS would be a welcome improvement.
brutal_chaos_ 4y ago
Oh, we've noticed. Apple doesn't care.
- m-p-3 4y ago
  Hoepfully the European Union will make them care soon.
Tagbert 4y ago
That was a lot of hand waving but very little in the way of specifics. It seems to assume it’s conclusion and builds on that.
- mtomweb 4y ago
  What specifics are you looking for? In Web Development circles the issues are fairly well known. For specifics: https://open-web-advocacy.org/walled-gardens-report/ https://open-web-advocacy.org/walled-gardens-report/
7steps2much 4y ago
>There's a reason PC app stores are moribund, and it's that browsers do the job of delivering software. Mobile app stores would go the same way, if mobile browsers did the same job – and without people needing to use the Apple App Store. This is an interesting conclusion, especially considering that packet managers on linux are alive and well and that Microsoft is currently building their own (winget i believe it is called). Now of course a packet manager isn't the same thing as a store, but I am pretty certain that the app stores will survive. There is value in having your apps update automatically and without you having to worry about it. Not to mention the ease of installation and discoverbility.
siproprio 4y ago
This will be awful because then all the social media apps will start to bundle their own browsers, without ad blocking!
- mtomweb 4y ago
  OSs need to restrict In-App Browsers to first party content only unless it is the users default browser
joshstrange 4y ago
Well my eyes just about rolled out of my head reading this, this author is either being intentionally misleading or is a moron. > Mobile browsing is a pretty naff experience, and it hasn't held back the popularity of smartphones. All those adverts and awful overlays, pop-ups and cranky interfaces. A web service might be OK on the desktop, but on mobile the apps are better, right? Stands to reason. > This attitude is three things: perception, reality, and wrong. It's a perception because mobile browsing used to be terrible for good reasons: it was a primitive affair running on limited processors with little memory and slow networks. It's reality because, yes, it is still awful. It's wrong because there's been no good reason for this for at least five years. We accept it because we're conditioned to accept it, and Apple has been delighted to keep it that way. Uh, no. Mobile browsing isn't nearly as bad as he makes it out to be and it has improved. Furthermore it's not safari that makes mobile browsing bad, it's the popups, ads, redirects, etc. I very rarely think "I wish this website could send me push notifications", instead I'm wondering if I can even find the content among the mess. I've been developing mobile/responsive websites for over a decade and developing has only gotten better over that time, it's shit content that's the issue. > The modern browser is a powerful platform in its own right, but you cannot build a modern browser on the antique engine in Apple's iOS Safari. What? Antique? They are slower moving than other engines but "antique" is just a silly word to use here. Also I've used Android, there is absolutely nothing interesting over there when it comes to browsers. Sure you have Firefox and Opera but their marketshare is a joke, Chrome (and sometimes Samsung Internet) reign supreme, clearly users do not care. > The modern iPhone has the literal computing power of a supercomputer from 2001 and the web experience of a desktop PC from 2011. We think that's natural. It's not. It's Apple poisoning the market. Just going to ignore the form factor/screen size differences? That's my biggest issue with desktop vs mobile. Again, let's look at Android, are people living in the future where custom browser engines are allowed? No, they are doing largely the same things as iOS users. > Mobile app stores would go the same way, if mobile browsers did the same job – and without people needing to use the Apple App Store. This would mean, though, that Apple would lose the primary differentiator of its mobile brand. I've used and shipped web-based apps before but this is just silly. Again, even on Android I ship an app because the web is limited and I honestly think we do need a layer of review/security before giving access to some of the features apps get that website do not. Are we forgetting how annoying it is on the desktop to have so many sites ask for push notification permissions? We want more of that? I don't. > How about the security, rogue program filtration, and guarantees of experience that the app store gatekeepers provide? > Modern browser and OS security has come a long way in those 14 years of the App Store's existence: there are plenty of ways to keep safe online, and plenty of ways to go wrong on a mobile, even today. So much of this article is just meaningless fluff or straight BS. What are they even trying to say here? "Things are better but stuff can still go wrong, ignore any security concerns with giving browsers full-access to the device"? I just cannot take this article seriously. They lay a ton of blame at Safari's feet while giving no explanation as to why the Android landscape looks near-identical. Look I get it, here on HN there will be people that swear by FF or some other browser but other than style or things that can often be accomplished with plugins/addons what are they really providing? Even if this hamfisted EU law passes we will not see an exodus from the App Stores. There are good reasons why apps are better than webpages in a number of cases. Just look at Android.
qgin 4y ago
It’s insane that on my laptop I’m using a browser to run full featured versions of Google Sheets and Figma, but on my mobile phone, the pizza place wants me to download a 30mb binary app to see their menu. Browsers are more than capable of delivering responsive interfaces that cover 95% of what apps do. But mobile browsers, specifically mobile Safari, have refused to implement the relatively short list of features and fixes that would get us there. I have no doubt it is due to not wanting to give up the profit and control that Apple currently enjoys with the App Store.
- musicale 4y ago
  > on my mobile phone, the pizza place wants me to download a 30mb binary app to see their menu. Pretty sure HTML works great for pizza menus.
  - db48x 4y ago
    Of course it is, but that’s not the point. Unless you download their app, the pizza chain gains no insight into who you are or what you like, and thus they have nothing to sell to advertisers.
    - 72deluxe 4y ago
      Perhaps they can identify what you like by what you order??
      - db48x 4y ago
        They have your delivery address and phone number; it’s trivial for them to identify you uniquely. What they gain when you install an app is the ability to tie that identity to information about your responses to ads, your social media activity, your browser history, etc. Pizza Hut may not have much direct use for most of that information, but they can sell it.
        musicale 4y ago
bfrog 4y ago
Every google app will include a copy of chrome for maximum spyware, sounds insane.
- krnlpnc 4y ago
  This is what Google has become, install their apps and use their services at your own risk.
musicale 4y ago
Apple presumably has little to gain from replacing native apps with web apps on iOS. (Moreover, responsiveness and battery life, things that Apple presumably cares about, are unlikely to improve by switching from compiled apps to javascript or even webassembly.) Google, however, might have something to gain from replacing native apps with web apps on iOS.

31 points by retskrad 4y ago

krnlpnc 4y ago

I hope this gains traction, real alternative browser options on iOS would be a welcome improvement.

brutal_chaos_ 4y ago

Oh, we've noticed. Apple doesn't care.

m-p-3 4y ago
Hoepfully the European Union will make them care soon.

Tagbert 4y ago

That was a lot of hand waving but very little in the way of specifics. It seems to assume it’s conclusion and builds on that.

mtomweb 4y ago
What specifics are you looking for? In Web Development circles the issues are fairly well known. For specifics: https://open-web-advocacy.org/walled-gardens-report/ https://open-web-advocacy.org/walled-gardens-report/

7steps2much 4y ago

>There's a reason PC app stores are moribund, and it's that browsers do the job of delivering software. Mobile app stores would go the same way, if mobile browsers did the same job – and without people needing to use the Apple App Store. This is an interesting conclusion, especially considering that packet managers on linux are alive and well and that Microsoft is currently building their own (winget i believe it is called). Now of course a packet manager isn't the same thing as a store, but I am pretty certain that the app stores will survive. There is value in having your apps update automatically and without you having to worry about it. Not to mention the ease of installation and discoverbility.

siproprio 4y ago

This will be awful because then all the social media apps will start to bundle their own browsers, without ad blocking!

mtomweb 4y ago
OSs need to restrict In-App Browsers to first party content only unless it is the users default browser

joshstrange 4y ago

Well my eyes just about rolled out of my head reading this, this author is either being intentionally misleading or is a moron. > Mobile browsing is a pretty naff experience, and it hasn't held back the popularity of smartphones. All those adverts and awful overlays, pop-ups and cranky interfaces. A web service might be OK on the desktop, but on mobile the apps are better, right? Stands to reason. > This attitude is three things: perception, reality, and wrong. It's a perception because mobile browsing used to be terrible for good reasons: it was a primitive affair running on limited processors with little memory and slow networks. It's reality because, yes, it is still awful. It's wrong because there's been no good reason for this for at least five years. We accept it because we're conditioned to accept it, and Apple has been delighted to keep it that way. Uh, no. Mobile browsing isn't nearly as bad as he makes it out to be and it has improved. Furthermore it's not safari that makes mobile browsing bad, it's the popups, ads, redirects, etc. I very rarely think "I wish this website could send me push notifications", instead I'm wondering if I can even find the content among the mess. I've been developing mobile/responsive websites for over a decade and developing has only gotten better over that time, it's shit content that's the issue. > The modern browser is a powerful platform in its own right, but you cannot build a modern browser on the antique engine in Apple's iOS Safari. What? Antique? They are slower moving than other engines but "antique" is just a silly word to use here. Also I've used Android, there is absolutely nothing interesting over there when it comes to browsers. Sure you have Firefox and Opera but their marketshare is a joke, Chrome (and sometimes Samsung Internet) reign supreme, clearly users do not care. > The modern iPhone has the literal computing power of a supercomputer from 2001 and the web experience of a desktop PC from 2011. We think that's natural. It's not. It's Apple poisoning the market. Just going to ignore the form factor/screen size differences? That's my biggest issue with desktop vs mobile. Again, let's look at Android, are people living in the future where custom browser engines are allowed? No, they are doing largely the same things as iOS users. > Mobile app stores would go the same way, if mobile browsers did the same job – and without people needing to use the Apple App Store. This would mean, though, that Apple would lose the primary differentiator of its mobile brand. I've used and shipped web-based apps before but this is just silly. Again, even on Android I ship an app because the web is limited and I honestly think we do need a layer of review/security before giving access to some of the features apps get that website do not. Are we forgetting how annoying it is on the desktop to have so many sites ask for push notification permissions? We want more of that? I don't. > How about the security, rogue program filtration, and guarantees of experience that the app store gatekeepers provide? > Modern browser and OS security has come a long way in those 14 years of the App Store's existence: there are plenty of ways to keep safe online, and plenty of ways to go wrong on a mobile, even today. So much of this article is just meaningless fluff or straight BS. What are they even trying to say here? "Things are better but stuff can still go wrong, ignore any security concerns with giving browsers full-access to the device"? I just cannot take this article seriously. They lay a ton of blame at Safari's feet while giving no explanation as to why the Android landscape looks near-identical. Look I get it, here on HN there will be people that swear by FF or some other browser but other than style or things that can often be accomplished with plugins/addons what are they really providing? Even if this hamfisted EU law passes we will not see an exodus from the App Stores. There are good reasons why apps are better than webpages in a number of cases. Just look at Android.

qgin 4y ago

It’s insane that on my laptop I’m using a browser to run full featured versions of Google Sheets and Figma, but on my mobile phone, the pizza place wants me to download a 30mb binary app to see their menu. Browsers are more than capable of delivering responsive interfaces that cover 95% of what apps do. But mobile browsers, specifically mobile Safari, have refused to implement the relatively short list of features and fixes that would get us there. I have no doubt it is due to not wanting to give up the profit and control that Apple currently enjoys with the App Store.

musicale 4y ago
> on my mobile phone, the pizza place wants me to download a 30mb binary app to see their menu. Pretty sure HTML works great for pizza menus.
- db48x 4y ago
  Of course it is, but that’s not the point. Unless you download their app, the pizza chain gains no insight into who you are or what you like, and thus they have nothing to sell to advertisers.
  - 72deluxe 4y ago
    Perhaps they can identify what you like by what you order??
    - db48x 4y ago
      They have your delivery address and phone number; it’s trivial for them to identify you uniquely. What they gain when you install an app is the ability to tie that identity to information about your responses to ads, your social media activity, your browser history, etc. Pizza Hut may not have much direct use for most of that information, but they can sell it.
      - musicale 4y ago

bfrog 4y ago

Every google app will include a copy of chrome for maximum spyware, sounds insane.

krnlpnc 4y ago
This is what Google has become, install their apps and use their services at your own risk.

musicale 4y ago

Apple presumably has little to gain from replacing native apps with web apps on iOS. (Moreover, responsiveness and battery life, things that Apple presumably cares about, are unlikely to improve by switching from compiled apps to javascript or even webassembly.) Google, however, might have something to gain from replacing native apps with web apps on iOS.