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> Where is all this tuition even going to? I have a family member who works in the “alumni relations” department of a small, regional public university. Probab

> Where is all this tuition even going to? I have a family member who works in the “alumni relations” department of a small, regional public university. Probably ranked like #300 or something. There are like 5 people in the department. They make a magazine, email newsletter and schedule alumni events. It was really surreal when they explained their job and that the department exists. There’s an admin costs problem in this country. There’s no sufficient governance or oversight in controlling university spending. This is even a public university and it’s just bizarre that they can make up positions that shouldn’t even exist.

Invictus0 4y ago
You haven't presented enough evidence to show that there is a problem. If the alumni relations department is bringing in donations greater than their salaries, they are a net benefit to the university. Even if they don't bring in that amount every year, it might still be a net plus: it might bring in better students, spread the word about the university, and it might lead to big gifts later down the line.
- muh_gradle 4y ago
  Administrative bloat in higher education is well known at this point, and it's absolutely a part of where student money is going. All I see is a lot of "mights" in your post.
- didericis 4y ago
  > Even if they don’t bring in that amount every year, it might still be a net plus Or it might not. Thats the root of the problem. The administrators are the people coming up with the metrics and arguments to justify their own existence. I’m sure many of them believe they’re making a positive contribution, and the situation is more complex and tragic than just “these are the baddies” type arguments suggest, but there’s still an accountability problem that needs to be reckoned with.
- evolve2k 4y ago
  I also reject the assertion they shouldn’t exist. The “Alumni network” is listed as one of the additional benefits when enrolling for a degree. Further when the engineering firm you started after graduation with some of your classmates wines a National science award. Getting that profiled in the alumni newsletter could be unlocking a range of oppprtunities for your firm from grant funder interest to new commercialisation opportunity, all coming out of the alumni network. Just cause the work is quiet doesn’t mean it’s pointless.
  - prepend 4y ago
    An alumni network is great. I think the issue is having so many admin staff working on low value activities like magazines and newsletters. I’m a big fan of quiet work, but this is pointless. It’s not pointless because it’s quiet. It’s pointless because it has minimal to no positive impact.
- prepend 4y ago
  The alumni donations total about $50k/year and I think there’s only like 200,000 alumnis that exist. The department is five years old and the growth is minimal as donations were like $30k with no department at all. My anecdote wasn’t intended as evidence. But there’s definitely a problem. You can look at official sources [0] for evidence showing that admin expenses are 21% at public, four year schools. I found this article while looking for the official stats [1] that claims the average university in the US has 45 people in DEI. DEI is very important, I think, but 45 employees boggles the mind and seems to be more of a symptom of runaway costs and lack of controls that would allow for so many admin staff on a single topic. [0] https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=75 https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=75 [1] https://www.heritage.org/education/commentary/administrative-bloat-universities-raises-costs-without-helping-students https://www.heritage.org/education/commentary/administrative...
throwaway6734 4y ago
Also know someone that works at a large university in alumni relations. Their department doesn't pay great, but the bar for performance is so low.
- prepend 4y ago
  For my family member the salary isn’t huge, I think like $40k so the whole department is probably less than $500k/year including overhead and whatnot. My assumption was if they are spending stupid money on this they are likely spending stupid money on many other things.
  - CydeWeys 4y ago
    $500k/yr spent on fundraising does not remotely sound like a stupid use of money to me?
    - xyzzyz 4y ago
      That depends on what the ROI is.
    - prepend 4y ago
      It’s stupid because there are no alumni donations for this school. They are nowhere near breaking even and won’t because there just aren’t many alumni. The problem is that these aren’t efficient dollars anyway. Spending $500k to net $500k is not a good return. Schools should focus on better returns, like teaching and research.
nostrademons 4y ago
Alumni relations is a profit center for universities, not a cost center. Many universities are funded as much by alumni donations and endowment gains on them as they are by tuition.
- madengr 4y ago
- newsclues 4y ago
  Yeah but what is the return on investment? The incentive to have a alumni department to increase donations clearly isn’t in the best interests of society.
  - exhilaration 4y ago
    Society has decided that it doesn't want to support American universities through tax dollars [1] so you can't really blame universities for trying to find any and all other sources of funding. [1] https://www.cbpp.org/research/state-budget-and-tax/state-higher-education-funding-cuts-have-pushed-costs-to-students https://www.cbpp.org/research/state-budget-and-tax/state-hig...
    - newsclues 4y ago
      What about tuition? Or monetize research instead of gifting it to large (pharmaceutical) companies? This isn’t the only way for education to fund itself, and the incentives are not aligned with the mission.
      - pkaye 4y ago
        In terms of drug research the value of the discovery rises only after the clinical trials are complete.
        newsclues 4y ago
soheil 4y ago
> There’s an admin costs problem in this country. The money goes to the college administrators. They're major bureaucracies that plague and control universities money supply and more or less dictate universities' policies.
- danaris 4y ago
  The data I've seen doesn't, by and large, bear this out. The money goes to the athletics and the infrastructure. (Not in the sense of "the best infrastructure money can buy", sadly; no, it's more like "raise $300 million to build this new dorm and let the richest donor put their name on it, then spend about 30% of what it needs for maintenance for the next 30 years...and then spend 5x the amount we would've had to if we'd just maintained it in remediation and renovations".)
  - adventured 4y ago
    > The money goes to the athletics and the infrastructure. Athletics for most schools are a net profit center, even for the #100 football program. The smaller schools aren't spending nearly so much on athletics as the schools with football programs.
    - danaris 4y ago
      First of all, I don't believe that's actually true based on what I've seen: what seems to be more often the case is that the tickets pay for the marketing and some of the athletic infrastructure. Meanwhile, the coaches are being paid millions of dollars per year. I don't care how much money the athletic program is bringing in; that's not a responsible use of the money. (I get that it's something of a prisoner's dilemma at the individual institution level; I'm more talking about the broader issue.) If you have the money to pay the coaches $2M/year, that means you could, instead, stop paying your adjunct professors and regular staff sub-poverty wages, and/or perform proper maintenance on the buildings. And do not get me started on the economics of stadium construction.
    - triceratops 4y ago
milesskorpen 4y ago
Part of the issue is TOO MUCH governance. We have loaded colleges down with regulations and requirements, which then require administrators to handle these rules. Most of these administrative roles are not optional (at least not if you don't want to get sued). Most of these requirements independently make sense, but the sum impact weighs down universities and drives up cost.
- rch 4y ago
  Factually unsupported cynical take: Without the made up jobs there would be even less of a market for the type of non-STEM graduates public universities like to produce. The regulations provide the justification for the jobs program needed to soak up the excess supply of non-trade graduates generated by overenthusiastic student loan policy.
- SoftTalker 4y ago
  > Most of these administrative roles are not optional (at least not if you don't want to get sued. They are mostly not optional if you want to receive federal funding. There are some small colleges that are totally private, do not take government funds, and so don't have to implement and administer many government regulations.
Ekaros 4y ago
5 people for Alumni relationships if they also deal with some other public relations really doesn't sound too horrible.
uberman 4y ago
I'm not suggesting that there is not an abundance of staff at some institutions, but at most institutions, "alumni relations" is a profit center not a cost center. At least if they are doing the job that our "alumni relations" department does. Yes, ours produces a magazine as well but their real job is (or should be) to entice giving. This kind of thing would be like saying your typical account manager's job is surreal and perhaps in some cases that might be true :-)

Invictus0 4y ago

You haven't presented enough evidence to show that there is a problem. If the alumni relations department is bringing in donations greater than their salaries, they are a net benefit to the university. Even if they don't bring in that amount every year, it might still be a net plus: it might bring in better students, spread the word about the university, and it might lead to big gifts later down the line.

muh_gradle 4y ago
Administrative bloat in higher education is well known at this point, and it's absolutely a part of where student money is going. All I see is a lot of "mights" in your post.
didericis 4y ago
> Even if they don’t bring in that amount every year, it might still be a net plus Or it might not. Thats the root of the problem. The administrators are the people coming up with the metrics and arguments to justify their own existence. I’m sure many of them believe they’re making a positive contribution, and the situation is more complex and tragic than just “these are the baddies” type arguments suggest, but there’s still an accountability problem that needs to be reckoned with.
evolve2k 4y ago
I also reject the assertion they shouldn’t exist. The “Alumni network” is listed as one of the additional benefits when enrolling for a degree. Further when the engineering firm you started after graduation with some of your classmates wines a National science award. Getting that profiled in the alumni newsletter could be unlocking a range of oppprtunities for your firm from grant funder interest to new commercialisation opportunity, all coming out of the alumni network. Just cause the work is quiet doesn’t mean it’s pointless.
- prepend 4y ago
  An alumni network is great. I think the issue is having so many admin staff working on low value activities like magazines and newsletters. I’m a big fan of quiet work, but this is pointless. It’s not pointless because it’s quiet. It’s pointless because it has minimal to no positive impact.
prepend 4y ago
The alumni donations total about $50k/year and I think there’s only like 200,000 alumnis that exist. The department is five years old and the growth is minimal as donations were like $30k with no department at all. My anecdote wasn’t intended as evidence. But there’s definitely a problem. You can look at official sources [0] for evidence showing that admin expenses are 21% at public, four year schools. I found this article while looking for the official stats [1] that claims the average university in the US has 45 people in DEI. DEI is very important, I think, but 45 employees boggles the mind and seems to be more of a symptom of runaway costs and lack of controls that would allow for so many admin staff on a single topic. [0] https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=75 https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=75 [1] https://www.heritage.org/education/commentary/administrative-bloat-universities-raises-costs-without-helping-students https://www.heritage.org/education/commentary/administrative...

throwaway6734 4y ago

Also know someone that works at a large university in alumni relations. Their department doesn't pay great, but the bar for performance is so low.

prepend 4y ago
For my family member the salary isn’t huge, I think like $40k so the whole department is probably less than $500k/year including overhead and whatnot. My assumption was if they are spending stupid money on this they are likely spending stupid money on many other things.
- CydeWeys 4y ago
  $500k/yr spent on fundraising does not remotely sound like a stupid use of money to me?
  - xyzzyz 4y ago
    That depends on what the ROI is.
  - prepend 4y ago
    It’s stupid because there are no alumni donations for this school. They are nowhere near breaking even and won’t because there just aren’t many alumni. The problem is that these aren’t efficient dollars anyway. Spending $500k to net $500k is not a good return. Schools should focus on better returns, like teaching and research.

nostrademons 4y ago

Alumni relations is a profit center for universities, not a cost center. Many universities are funded as much by alumni donations and endowment gains on them as they are by tuition.

madengr 4y ago
newsclues 4y ago
Yeah but what is the return on investment? The incentive to have a alumni department to increase donations clearly isn’t in the best interests of society.
- exhilaration 4y ago
  Society has decided that it doesn't want to support American universities through tax dollars [1] so you can't really blame universities for trying to find any and all other sources of funding. [1] https://www.cbpp.org/research/state-budget-and-tax/state-higher-education-funding-cuts-have-pushed-costs-to-students https://www.cbpp.org/research/state-budget-and-tax/state-hig...
  - newsclues 4y ago
    What about tuition? Or monetize research instead of gifting it to large (pharmaceutical) companies? This isn’t the only way for education to fund itself, and the incentives are not aligned with the mission.
    - pkaye 4y ago
      In terms of drug research the value of the discovery rises only after the clinical trials are complete.
      - newsclues 4y ago

soheil 4y ago

> There’s an admin costs problem in this country. The money goes to the college administrators. They're major bureaucracies that plague and control universities money supply and more or less dictate universities' policies.

danaris 4y ago
The data I've seen doesn't, by and large, bear this out. The money goes to the athletics and the infrastructure. (Not in the sense of "the best infrastructure money can buy", sadly; no, it's more like "raise $300 million to build this new dorm and let the richest donor put their name on it, then spend about 30% of what it needs for maintenance for the next 30 years...and then spend 5x the amount we would've had to if we'd just maintained it in remediation and renovations".)
- adventured 4y ago
  > The money goes to the athletics and the infrastructure. Athletics for most schools are a net profit center, even for the #100 football program. The smaller schools aren't spending nearly so much on athletics as the schools with football programs.
  - danaris 4y ago
    First of all, I don't believe that's actually true based on what I've seen: what seems to be more often the case is that the tickets pay for the marketing and some of the athletic infrastructure. Meanwhile, the coaches are being paid millions of dollars per year. I don't care how much money the athletic program is bringing in; that's not a responsible use of the money. (I get that it's something of a prisoner's dilemma at the individual institution level; I'm more talking about the broader issue.) If you have the money to pay the coaches $2M/year, that means you could, instead, stop paying your adjunct professors and regular staff sub-poverty wages, and/or perform proper maintenance on the buildings. And do not get me started on the economics of stadium construction.
  - triceratops 4y ago

milesskorpen 4y ago

Part of the issue is TOO MUCH governance. We have loaded colleges down with regulations and requirements, which then require administrators to handle these rules. Most of these administrative roles are not optional (at least not if you don't want to get sued). Most of these requirements independently make sense, but the sum impact weighs down universities and drives up cost.

rch 4y ago
Factually unsupported cynical take: Without the made up jobs there would be even less of a market for the type of non-STEM graduates public universities like to produce. The regulations provide the justification for the jobs program needed to soak up the excess supply of non-trade graduates generated by overenthusiastic student loan policy.
SoftTalker 4y ago
> Most of these administrative roles are not optional (at least not if you don't want to get sued. They are mostly not optional if you want to receive federal funding. There are some small colleges that are totally private, do not take government funds, and so don't have to implement and administer many government regulations.

Ekaros 4y ago

5 people for Alumni relationships if they also deal with some other public relations really doesn't sound too horrible.

uberman 4y ago

I'm not suggesting that there is not an abundance of staff at some institutions, but at most institutions, "alumni relations" is a profit center not a cost center. At least if they are doing the job that our "alumni relations" department does. Yes, ours produces a magazine as well but their real job is (or should be) to entice giving. This kind of thing would be like saying your typical account manager's job is surreal and perhaps in some cases that might be true :-)