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Shortly after the sinking, reports emerged that a U.S. Navy P-8A Poseidon was in the area before the attack, suggesting that the U.S. may have provided detailed

Shortly after the sinking, reports emerged that a U.S. Navy P-8A Poseidon was in the area before the attack, suggesting that the U.S. may have provided detailed targeting information to the Ukrainians to target the ship. Carlson said while the U.S. could give Ukrainian forces a general idea of where the ship was, it could not provide necessary tracking information to the Neptunes because P-8s datalinks were incompatible. https://news.usni.org/2022/05/05/warship-moskva-was-blind-to-ukrainian-missile-attack-analysis-shows https://news.usni.org/2022/05/05/warship-moskva-was-blind-to...

exabrial 4y ago
Targeting information no, but that's a distraction in the news to downplay the significance. * Boat moving slowly? Check. * Boat oriented in correct direction for broadside attack at the waterline? Check. * Short range defense radars down? Check. * Other defense assets out of the area? Check. "Ok bring up your targeting radars and fire"
- JAlexoid 4y ago
  Every part of that whole operation was significant. But the core of the article still stays - smaller weaponry is becoming much more effective and in any future conflict will be critical. We can see it through the centuries - from big castles and heavy armoured knights, to lightly armoured mobile units and temporary fortifications.
- unyttigfjelltol 4y ago
  So, the hypothesis is that both the Russian and Ukrainian stories are accurate? The ship was disabled by fire, and then attacked when weakened?
  - exhilaration 4y ago
    No, I think the hypothesis is that the ship's short-range radar was disabled due to crew errors or equipment obsolescence, something which the P-8A Poseidon could detect and relay to the Ukrainians. That provided a window during which Neptune missiles could be successfully used. The "fire" started after the missiles struck the ship.
ckozlowski 4y ago
That's probably where the reported TB2 came into play. The U.S. gives them general information, but it's more than enough for the Ukrainians to vector in one of their drones, which they likely do have those links for, and feed that to the missile battery.
- kmonsen 4y ago
  I thought the TB2's were used as decoys? Apparently Russian ships can only target in a 180 degree arc, so send some TB2's highly visible but out of range on one side and send some ocean skimming missiles in from the other side.
  - ckozlowski 4y ago
    That's been stated a number of places, but it's an inaccurate analysis, likely stemming from confusing a tracking radar (and missing that a Slava-class cruiser has several) from the search radar (360). From an article: >There’s also some other speculation suggesting that “Moskva has/had a single main air defence radar (3P41 Volna) for guiding S300 missiles, which has only a 180 degree field of view. Therefore, 360-degree coverage is provided by the 3-D long-range air search radars MR -800 Voshkod/Top Pair for short-range missiles SA -8.” The claim reveals that the Top Pair radar couldn’t distinguish the Neptunes flying over the sea from the crests of the waves due to the stormy weather. These claims lack a solid basis, as the ship in question is a cruiser with good air defense capabilities. Although TB2 drones are very useful in naval warfare, cruiser-type ships are designed to track and repel multiple air contacts. As a result, paralyzing a Slava-class cruiser with one or more drones is unrealistic. https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/04/analysis-chain-of-negligence-caused-the-loss-of-the-moskva-cruiser/ https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/04/analysis-chain-... >Though it makes for a compelling tale, this narrative is almost certain to be false. Not only are the radars and their operators onboard a warship like the Moskva more than capable of detecting and tracking more than just a single target, and would in fact do so virtually automatically so long as they were operating, but if they were in fact tracking a drone then situational awareness should have been at at a higher level than if the attack had occurred out of the blue. https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/04/neptunes-wrath-flagship-moskvas-demise.html https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/04/neptunes-wrath-flagshi... On paper, a Slava-Class cruiser should have no issues tracking a drone and plenty of other incoming missiles and aircraft. That was in fact, the scenario it was designed to face. I suspect there's just simply too much we don't know and too many unanswered questions. There's a lot that would have to work correctly for the Neptunes to be targeted, from the search radar, handoff to tracking radar, and then successful intercepts by the medium tier SAMs and if not those, the CWIS. There's plenty that can go wrong. And keep in mind, there have been very few successful AShM intercepts in history. If the full story ever gets told, it will be read by many, I'm sure.

exabrial 4y ago

Targeting information no, but that's a distraction in the news to downplay the significance. * Boat moving slowly? Check. * Boat oriented in correct direction for broadside attack at the waterline? Check. * Short range defense radars down? Check. * Other defense assets out of the area? Check. "Ok bring up your targeting radars and fire"

JAlexoid 4y ago
Every part of that whole operation was significant. But the core of the article still stays - smaller weaponry is becoming much more effective and in any future conflict will be critical. We can see it through the centuries - from big castles and heavy armoured knights, to lightly armoured mobile units and temporary fortifications.
unyttigfjelltol 4y ago
So, the hypothesis is that both the Russian and Ukrainian stories are accurate? The ship was disabled by fire, and then attacked when weakened?
- exhilaration 4y ago
  No, I think the hypothesis is that the ship's short-range radar was disabled due to crew errors or equipment obsolescence, something which the P-8A Poseidon could detect and relay to the Ukrainians. That provided a window during which Neptune missiles could be successfully used. The "fire" started after the missiles struck the ship.

ckozlowski 4y ago

That's probably where the reported TB2 came into play. The U.S. gives them general information, but it's more than enough for the Ukrainians to vector in one of their drones, which they likely do have those links for, and feed that to the missile battery.

kmonsen 4y ago
I thought the TB2's were used as decoys? Apparently Russian ships can only target in a 180 degree arc, so send some TB2's highly visible but out of range on one side and send some ocean skimming missiles in from the other side.
- ckozlowski 4y ago
  That's been stated a number of places, but it's an inaccurate analysis, likely stemming from confusing a tracking radar (and missing that a Slava-class cruiser has several) from the search radar (360). From an article: >There’s also some other speculation suggesting that “Moskva has/had a single main air defence radar (3P41 Volna) for guiding S300 missiles, which has only a 180 degree field of view. Therefore, 360-degree coverage is provided by the 3-D long-range air search radars MR -800 Voshkod/Top Pair for short-range missiles SA -8.” The claim reveals that the Top Pair radar couldn’t distinguish the Neptunes flying over the sea from the crests of the waves due to the stormy weather. These claims lack a solid basis, as the ship in question is a cruiser with good air defense capabilities. Although TB2 drones are very useful in naval warfare, cruiser-type ships are designed to track and repel multiple air contacts. As a result, paralyzing a Slava-class cruiser with one or more drones is unrealistic. https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/04/analysis-chain-of-negligence-caused-the-loss-of-the-moskva-cruiser/ https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/04/analysis-chain-... >Though it makes for a compelling tale, this narrative is almost certain to be false. Not only are the radars and their operators onboard a warship like the Moskva more than capable of detecting and tracking more than just a single target, and would in fact do so virtually automatically so long as they were operating, but if they were in fact tracking a drone then situational awareness should have been at at a higher level than if the attack had occurred out of the blue. https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/04/neptunes-wrath-flagship-moskvas-demise.html https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/04/neptunes-wrath-flagshi... On paper, a Slava-Class cruiser should have no issues tracking a drone and plenty of other incoming missiles and aircraft. That was in fact, the scenario it was designed to face. I suspect there's just simply too much we don't know and too many unanswered questions. There's a lot that would have to work correctly for the Neptunes to be targeted, from the search radar, handoff to tracking radar, and then successful intercepts by the medium tier SAMs and if not those, the CWIS. There's plenty that can go wrong. And keep in mind, there have been very few successful AShM intercepts in history. If the full story ever gets told, it will be read by many, I'm sure.